Saints & Revaltion 5:8

[michaeldimmickjr]

I was reading some information on Catholicism and came to find out that they use Revelation 5:8 as the argument that the saints, as they know saints, pray for us in Heaven. I have read the passage over and over & read all of chapter 5 in the Book of Revelation: I don't understand why they think it's saints that have "passed" from the earth. Any ideas?

I'm not trying to start debate, I honestly can't see where this comes from. Any information would be appreciated.

Your Brother in Christ,

Michael

 

[isshinwhat]

6: And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth;
7: and he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.
8: And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

It is from John's vision of Heaven. They are bowed before Christ who is in Heaven.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

few would argue that the elders are not saints, humans in Heaven. The only question u have to ask yourself is who or what they were praying for. We believe as the NT repeatedly states that all the saints, all members are called to pray for one another. We see no difference/distinction in that call from those here and those that have gone on before us and made it to Heaven.

Many Protestants object, not that these are saints in Heaven with prayers, but that their prayers could not be about us. There is no Biblical basis for that position and given examples of people after death still interacting with this life, there is every reason to believe the saints in Heaven would continue praying for us. So just like many would ask a friend to pray for them, we ask saints to pray for us. Also there is some sense, that because of who and where they are now, the life experience they have, they would be better prayer partners for us than anyone here. Been there, done that kind of thing.

 

[KennySe]

the saints, mentioned in Rev 5:8 are "the holy ones", who are the children of God. These specific "holy ones" are not in Heaven. If they were in heaven, why would the 24 Elders be presenting their (the holy ones) prayers to God?

And how did the 24 Elders get those prayers?
And who are these 24 Elders?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes, from what I have read we do not who the 24 are, but almost all theologians Protestant or Catholic, are unanimous in agreeing that these are Saints, humans in Heaven. The question or doubt in some people's mind is not about who the elders are, but about what these prayers are specifically and whose prayers are they? IMO our view makes more sense Biblically and logically than just saying these cannot be prayers or petitions on our behalf by Saints in Heaven.
You would think Saints in Heaven would have no need to pray for themselves, so it makes more sense these prayers would be our petitions they are presenting to God (which would be the Saint's prayer - presenting/praying to God). Or at least them praying for us, whether we asked them to formerly or not. Some Protestors suppose the prayers are petitions for the coming Kingdom. There is no reason from the text to exclude that possibility but given that same petition, "thy Kingdom come", is shown elsewhere given by all creatures (Angels and Saints) together, one must wonder why John would express the same thing differently here.


Aside from just a stubborm objection to our practice of asking any Saint to pray for us (including relatives) or for us to pray for them, see no Biblical reason to argue our practice is in vain. IMO it seems just more of the same objection to anything Catholic rather than a logical or Biblical based objection.

 

[Dad Ernie]

The question or doubt in some people's mind is not about who the elders are, but about what these prayers are specifically and whose prayers are they? IMO our view makes more sense Biblically and logically than just saying these cannot be prayers or petitions on our behalf by Saints in Heaven.

Greetings Dr. BubbaLove,

No, the Catholic view does not make more sense in lieu of:

Romans 8:26-17 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

You can find nothing in the scriptures which reveal that the saints in heaven are praying for the saints still living on this earth.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[CrystalBrooke]

why dont you just go to OBOB and ask...it will keep a debate from happening. and it just makes more sense to ask a person who is Catholic about Catholic doctrine rather than to have it open to all people. bc at least that way, like i said there will be no harsh debating, and then you'll have our explaination, even if you dont agree with it. your just asking for trouble when you leave it open to everyone.

i really dont see how the verse could be taken another way.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You can find nothing in the scriptures which reveal that the saints in heaven are praying for the saints still living on this earth.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

That is fine that you think they are not Dad. But then what do you think they are praying for?

 

[Spence06]

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

What exactly is there one mediator of?

Prayers and petitions or, is it one mediator of salvation to his people.

In my view, thats how I view that verse, and I always seen it being used in your context, i just don't understand how that fits in with the prayers of the saints if its dealing with Jesus Christ being our only mediator of salvation. Prayers, come in from all over, living on earth and non-living on earth for our behalf.

 

[isshinwhat]

You can find nothing in the scriptures which reveal that the saints in heaven are praying for the saints still living on this earth.

As recorded in 2 Maccabees 15:11-14:

"...he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God."

Both men were deceased when Judas had his vision.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Dad Ernie]

That is fine that you think they are not Dad. But then what do you think they are praying for?

DR BUBBA LOVE:

Rev 5:8 does not say the Elders are praying, neither does it say that the angels are praying in Rev 8:4.

What exactly is there one mediator of?

Prayers and petitions or, is it one mediator of salvation to his people.

In my view, thats how I view that verse, and I always seen it being used in your context, i just don't understand how that fits in with the prayers of the saints if its dealing with Jesus Christ being our only mediator of salvation. Prayers, come in from all over, living on earth and non-living on earth for our behalf.

The verses I quoted mentioned both ONE mediator and that HE is the ONE that intercedes for us with the father.

It is unreasonable to establish a doctrine that is based upon some vague interpretation of one or two scriptures.

The question is "To whom should we be praying?" Jesus makes it clear, we should be praying TO God the Father "in the Name of Jesus". Who is it that intercedes? Again Jesus says that "if we ask anything in His Name of the Father, that shall He do."

No where in the scriptures is there support for either praying to OR for the dead, or that they who are dead pray for the saints.

If Jesus' prayers are INSUFFICIENT to get God's attention on our behalf, what makes anyone think that a dead saint would have an effect?

The best that the Rev verses provide is that angels and the saints in heaven are AWARE of the prayers of the saints, nothing more.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[isshinwhat]

The best that the Rev verses provide is that angels and the saints in heaven are AWARE of the prayers of the saints, nothing more.

The angels and saints are much more than merely aware of the prayers, they offer them up to God. They prayers mix with our and are presneted to Christ. One Body, the Church.

Revelation 5:3-4

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

God Bless,

Neal

 

[DrBubbaLove]

DR BUBBA LOVE:

Rev 5:8 does not say the Elders are praying, neither does it say that the angels are praying in Rev 8:4.

Most people would include presenting God with the prayers of others as a prayer in itself. Same as if I asked you to pray for me for a specific purpose. Not really your prayer to God, but you are presenting mine in prayer to God. Clearly the NT indicates we should pray for our leaders and each other, all the saints (the Body). The dead just lose their bodies, it is not like their souls are dead too. Are they not still part of the Body? And if so, why wouldn't they be still concerned about other parts?

So think you must still ask yourself what these Saints were doing with these prayers they were presenting (offering in prayer) to God. How did they get those prayers if it isn't the prayer requests of the living to the Saints? Why didn't God have those prayers already?