Sabbath

Patrick:

No - not forever ! Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled - Matthew 5:18.

This earth is not forever, and the law is not forever !

Christians are not suppose to "do" the Law, they are suppose to "fulfill" it, by love. Taking a day of rest , and calling it a sabbath day, is not Love ! It was a commandment under the law.

If you keep this up Patrick, this heaven and earth will never pass away !

And speaking for myself, I am looking forward to this heaven and earth passing away , and when the Law is totally fuflilled. And I am looking forward to the New Heaven and Earth that God has promised us !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Hervey

The coming tribulation is a time for one of 2 things.

1) God will be dealing with those who do not know Him,
and those who choose not to follow His ways.
2) A time for Gods people to stand strong in the Lord,
a testing, and sifting of His people.

Noah, the flood, was a "type" of whats to come.
The Exodus was a "type" of whats to come.
The Tribulation, is what these "types" represent.

Luk 17:26
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be
also in the days of the Son of man.

Mat 13:49
So shall it be at the end of the world: the
angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among
the just,

They were, and are, ways of God showing His people how to
be "SAVED", by trusting, and having faith in Him.

In order to be "saved", you need to know what your "saved"
from.

There are (2) types of seals or marks.

The seal/mark of God.
The mark/seal of Satan.

The seal of Gods people are those who listen to, and follow
His commandments, and Laws.

The mark of Satan is those who just have to change Gods word
to fit they're way of life, to make things comfy for them.

Mat 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the
law, till all be fulfilled.

The last time I looked around, the earth was still here.

Listen Hearvey, if you want to follow a false jesus, thats
your business. But there is soon coming a time when you are
going to go through a Judgement. The Judgement can either be
a good thing, or a bad thing, again, the choice is yours.

Patrick

Patrick:

So quite changing what the Word says mark -- ah ah , I mean Patrick !

Join with us who want to fulfill the law, and not do the law .

BTW - I don't have either mark you mention. I have "seed " in me --- Christ IN - the hope of glory ! Galatians 3:16 and Colossians 1:27 etc.

You are dealing with "after" the Church has been gathered up !

Remember this Patrick - Where you mind is, there also is your heart. Where your heart is, is where you are !

Don't be one that see's Christ coming back with the saints. Be one of the saints, who comes back with Christ !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Hearvey

I love you my friend, but I will not kneel before any god
but the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

You have been misled by the "pre-trib" lie, I will pray for
your eye's to be opened.

Please read, if you will, Deuteronomy chapter 13:1-5

Please pay close attention to verse 5.
The commandments are never ending. And we are told if
anyone comes and says something to turn us from those
commandments, then he is a false prophet. It doesn't say
"until Jesus comes". It say's "anyone"

We either follow Yeshua/Jesus the only begotten Son of God,
the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or we are following a
false christ or prophet.

Patrick

Couldn't have said it any better Patrick!!!!
Actually I usually cant, I get edited out in here.
Hahaha.
Yeshua be with you all!!!

Umm...sorry, Patrick, we are not bound by those laws anymore. We have been set free. I think you need to do some research. The view you perscribe to is called 'judizers' and Paul wrote galatians to attack your postion as not biblical.

I have researched, I have prayed, and I have seeked after
God, and this is what He has shown me. If you don't want
to except that truth, then as I have said before, thats
okay. I hold nothing against anyone for following what
they want to believe.

Jesus said if I love Him, I would keep His commandments.
Well, I do love Him, so I will keep His commandments.
So I do my very best at keeping His commandments, but when
I do fall short, then I have Grace. But I can't simply
say I don't need to keep the commandments, just because I
want to live in grace non-stop. That would be a sin in itself.

Deut.13 Tells me, that if anyone comes telling me I do not
need to keep the commandments, that I am being tested by
God, and He wants to see how much I love Him. He wants to
see if I will listen to someone else, or if I will keep my
eye's, ears, and heart on Him.

The word of God, all of it, has to line up, it has to make
sense, and if someone tells me something, it will either
line up with the word, or I'll through it out the window.

There's two ways to go. God, speaking through Moses has told
His people, that if anyone comes along teaching something
other then His commandments, then we as His people are not
to listen, or follow that person, or they're god or gods.

So, either Jesus was a false prophet, or He told His people
to keep the commandments. We can't have it both ways.

I will correct myself in one area though.
Some will make it to the Kingdom that don't keep the
commandments, but they will be called least in the Kingdom.

Mat 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the
law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called
the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do
and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven.

If people want to bend Pauls words to fit they're own life
style, then go right ahead. But as for myself, I will
follow Christ.

Patrick

Patrick:

You said that you would follow Christ, while claiming that you are still following Moses. Did not the Apostles follow Christ ? Did not the Apostles of Christ speak and write the epistles ? You quote Deut 13 while the rest of us who do indeed follow Christ quote from the epistles. Why do you think that is Patrick ?

I Timothy 1:9 - "the law is not made for a righteous man" (Paul speaking)

James 2:10 - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law , and yet offend in one point is guilty of all"

Galatians 3:22 thru 26

Galatians 5:1 thru 14

You are still trying to "keep" the Law Patrick, which even Israel could not do.

Romans 2:12 - "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law : and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law"

Romans 3:20 & 21

20) - "Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight : for by the law is the knowledge of sin"

21) - "But now the rightousness of God without the law is manifested , being witnessed by the law and the prophets"

Romans 3:28 - "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law "

Patrick - Only the Jews were "under" the law. Not the gentiles ! Read Romans 3:29

Romans 3:30 - God shall justify circumcison by faith, and uncircumcison through faith

Romans 3:31 - "Do we then make void the law through faith ? God forbid : yea, we establish the law"

How do we establish the law Patrick ? By doing the deeds of the law ? NO !!! By faith Patrick.

"Faith" is a verb, which means action. Love activates our faith. Love is the fulfilling of the law, by/through faith.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Hearvey

there's really no reason for us to go on with this over and
over. I read the scriptures, and I read all of them. Not
just the NT.

For some reason, many people think that even the Apostles
taught right out of the NT. I have heard of preachers even
going as far as saying Paul carried the KJ Bible with him,
and thats what he used to teach from.... ha ha

I have given you scripture after scripture out of the NT, our
own Messiah teaching himself, but you want to continue reading
Pauls teachings that you don't understand.

Paul himself even said that there is a limit to grace.

Well, here I go again. Sorry, I'll stop.

Your Brother in Christ Jesus
Patrick

Patrick:

I can understand that you are getting tired of this conversation.

But, what I can not understand, is why you make such ingnorant statements , that you claim that the verses I am quoting , and reading from the NT, that I do not understand them ? ? ?

Is it not you that is "ignoring" the NT scriptures and what they are saying ????

Are you not also ignoring the very words of Jesus Christ himself, when he said , that these two commandments abideth all the law and the prophets ? ?

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Patrick, I still disagree with you. We are to keep the commandments out of love, and his commandment was love God, love people, he didn't say anything about keeping the sabbath We are free from being REQUIRED to keep laws. That's what galatians is all about.

One thing I find interesting about this thread, is that Patrick wants to do the Law , pertaining to the Sabbath.

But what about the other posters here, who still want to do other parts of the law, and they themselves think that what they are doing , was not a part of the law.

For instance:

Water cleansing - Water baptizing

The tithe

How many of you who have taken a stand against Patrick's opinion on keeping the Sabbath, are also doers and breakers of the law ? ?

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Why is there so much controversy about the Sabbath being kept according to the Ten Commandments, but no controversy about keeping all the other commandments. Stay with me here.

For example, adultery. But wait "I'm a Christian, I never have or will commit adultery". Jesus said if we commit adultery in our hearts, we are still guilty of it. Who here will say they have never, never, never had a thought of this nature. Be careful of the one who is always righteous. GUILTY.

Lying. Who will dare say they have never lied?
Again, GUILTY.

Coveting. Needs no explanation.
GUILTY.

I could continue, but I think you'll see the point. We are all guilty and convicted of sin. Where is the verse about if anyone fails in keeping one commandment he is guilty of breaking all of them. If someone keeping the Sabbath law claims another is guilty of breaking the Sabbath law, he has broken all of the law. The accuser I'm sure has broken other aspects of the law, so therefore is also guilty of breaking the rest of the law. The point is we are all guilty.


I'm trying to expand on my previous post about the promise made to Abraham. The law, commandments, were given after the promise to show us that we are guilty and because of transgressions until the seed came. They did not change the terms of the promise. They point us to Christ who then paid for our guilt.

What were Christ's final words to the disciples before he left them to ascend to heaven? Make disciples, baptize, and teach them to do what I commanded you to do. I believe these are the commandments we are to keep, not the law.

Sabbath keepers are not inherently wrong. However, I believe they generally impose rules contained in the law of Moses including food restrictions. It seems if your doctrine of beliefs holds you to the letter of the law, you are not living under grace and you had better be perfect in your obedience to the law or commandments. Paul by the way wrote about the letter and spirit of the law, remember?

You can't have it both ways. You are either justified by obedience to the law or by faith in Christ.

Just my .02. Don't mean to attack anyone, just continually searching for truth.

Eric