Sabbath?

Heavens · Apr 6, 2011

from scratch said:
What happened to Deut 28?

Good question.

Duet 28 verses 1 through 14 promised the Blessing if they observed all the law and commandments. Which we know that none did and no righteousness came forth under that law;

(Jas 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

(Rom 3:10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

(Rom 3:12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The rest of the chapter, clear up to verse sixty eight promised Cursing to those disobedient to the law. Which all happened and continues to happen unto those who are still under that law.

I'm sure glad that law was changed by Jesus.

I Thank God through Jesus Christ I am delivered from that old law and under the New Law of Life and Love and Liberty

visionary · Apr 6, 2011

Deuteronomy 4:8
And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?

Heavens · Apr 6, 2011

visionary said:
Works without faith is dead... Faith without works is also dead..

I can't boast of any works, that is for sure. If it wasn't for the work of Christ in me in righteousness, I'd have no works at all.

Frogster · Apr 6, 2011

visionary said:
Works without faith is dead... Faith without works is also dead..

Did works create the Spirit? Why the juxtaposition in scripture?

3;2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Bottom line, as I have asked you several times, please post NT theology, using the father of the jews, whom Torah observant people claim to be jews now, using Abraham, and NT theology.

The law did not bring the Spirit, the promise, the blessing, justification, the law was not the cross, or the gospel, unless u can give me NT verses to prove me wrong.

Read Gal 3:1-9.

visionary · Apr 6, 2011

Frogster said:
Did works create the Spirit? Why the juxtaposition in scripture?

3;2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Bottom line, as I have asked you several times, please post NT theology, using the father of the jews, whom Torah observant people claim to be jews now, using Abraham, and NT theology.

The law did not bring the Spirit, the promise, the blessing, justification, the law was not the cross, or the gospel, unless u can give me NT verses to prove me wrong.

Read Gal 3:1-9.

I am in total agreement... the Spirit is not coming from the works of the law,.. It comes from God... The hearing with faith... it what helps us understand which spirit... they witness each other to be true,,,

The law.. is the schoolmaster... teaching about the need for atonement for sin, the atonement process, and in it the promise [lamb] sacrifice.. which we know as Yeshua, the Lamb of God who died for our sins... in there we find our biggest blessing of all.. and our greatest justification that God could come up with for forgiving us of our sins, and as scripture says...

He became our curse for us..

Deuteronomy 21:23
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under Gods curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

This is how we learn what is a curse, a blessing, how justification works, and how the whole atonement process is handled. via what you study in the Torah provided by God for us.

Frogster · Apr 6, 2011

visionary said:
I am in total agreement... the Spirit is not coming from the works of the law,.. It comes from God... The hearing with faith... it what helps us understand which spirit... they witness each other to be true,,,

The law.. is the schoolmaster... teaching about the need for atonement for sin, the atonement process, and in it the promise [lamb] sacrifice.. which we know as Yeshua, the Lamb of God who died for our sins... in there we find our biggest blessing of all.. and our greatest justification that God could come up with for forgiving us of our sins, and as scripture says...

He became our curse for us..

Deuteronomy 21:23
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

This is how we learn what is a curse, a blessing, how justification works, and how the whole atonement process is handled. via what you study in the Torah provided by God for us.

Do countless people, along with the galatians, receive the Spirit without knowing the Torah? I found Christ without the Torah.

2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

again..

5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

visionary · Apr 6, 2011

Frogster said:
Do countless people, along with the galatians, receive the Spirit without knowing the Torah? The text indicates they did not know torah. How am I wrong?

2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

again..

5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith

My faith came from receiving the Holy Spirit.. it was the Holy Spirit who is teaching me the Torah in my life... I do not receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the law but by God grace upon me.. I am faithful to Him whom has loved me so much, that I show respect and love for Him with my obedience to His Word..

WHere has the spirit lead you?

Frogster · Apr 6, 2011

visionary said:
My faith came from receiving the Holy Spirit.. it was the Holy Spirit who is teaching me the Torah in my life... I do not receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the law but by God grace upon me.. I am faithful to Him whom has loved me so much, that I show respect and love for Him with my obedience to His Word..

WHere has the spirit lead you?

where? to the justifying faith, like Abe, to be a son.

My dear sister, are u ever going to make your case using the father of the Jews, and NT thelogy?

visionary · Apr 6, 2011

Frogster said:
where? to the justifying faith, like Abe, to be a son.

My dear sister, are u ever going to make your case using the father of the Jews, and NT thelogy?

You do realize that NT theology is based upon OT for a foundation... If you do not have that .. you are brulding sand castles.

Frogster · Apr 6, 2011

visionary said:
You do realize that NT theology is based upon OT for a foundation... If you do not have that .. you are brulding sand castles.

Sure..the just shall live by faith..Mal 2:4. Quoted 3 times in the NT...

How does NT theology use the fahter of our faith, law or faith?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

Are u ever gonna help froggy, and post NT theology and abe?:pray:

Johnnz · Apr 6, 2011

To argue for the ongoing application of the Mosaic covenant you must ignore the many references in the NT, including the entire Book of Hebrews. If you take those other scriptures at face value (the law is now over) then you have a contradiction with Scripture if you argue for a literal Sabbath keeping (our Saturday).

An explanation that sees the biblical message as a series of historical events where God progressively reveals Himself more explicitly does not have that problem. The NT builds on and supercedes the OT. This The OT has much to teach us (in fact the NT would make little sense without a good understanding of the OT) but it no longer is the covenant we live under.

John
NZ

Frogster · Apr 6, 2011

visionary said:
You do realize that NT theology is based upon OT for a foundation... If you do not have that .. you are brulding sand castles.

building on law is a sand castle, the promise did not come by law, or it voids the promise..sand castles...

yes the OT...Abraham....:

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, In you shall all the nations be blessed.

Yes the OT...Abraham...:

3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Yes the OT....:

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Yes the OT....:

1:1 Paul, a servant [1] of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,

Yes the OT...:

17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, The righteous shall live by faith.

Yes the OT....:

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith

Heavens · Apr 7, 2011

The law and the prophets spoke of Jesus coming, and the New Covenant He would replace the old one with. But it is important to know that the New Covenant was based entirely upon the Abrahamic Covenant, and in fact IS the Abrahamic Covenant brought to light.

Nothing of the New Covenant was based upon the old covenant law though. Only upon the Abrahamic Covenant.

The mosaic law simply exsisted for us to know sin. Now that we have Christ, we don't need that old mosaic law to know sin. Only those who don't have Christ have any relationship to that old mosaic law.
When they come to Christ, they will abandon that old abolished law of moses, and will rejoice in the Abrahamic Covenant of Israel, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That's how I see it anyway

Blessings

Heavens · Apr 7, 2011

Johnnz said:
To argue for the ongoing application of the Mosaic covenant you must ignore the many references in the NT, including the entire Book of Hebrews. If you take those other scriptures at face value (the law is now over) then you have a contradiction with Scripture if you argue for a literal Sabbath keeping (our Saturday).

An explanation that sees the biblical message as a series of historical events where God progressively reveals Himself more explicitly does not have that problem. The NT builds on and supercedes the OT. This The OT has much to teach us (in fact the NT would make little sense without a good understanding of the OT) but it no longer is the covenant we live under.

John
NZ

Exactly John.

Once a chick has hatched from the egg, it doesn't ever go back to trying to depend upon the broken shell for anything ever again. (forgive the analogy)

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Apr 11, 2011

Johnnz said:
To argue for the ongoing application of the Mosaic covenant you must ignore the many references in the NT, including the entire Book of Hebrews. If you take those other scriptures at face value (the law is now over) then you have a contradiction with Scripture if you argue for a literal Sabbath keeping (our Saturday).

An explanation that sees the biblical message as a series of historical events where God progressively reveals Himself more explicitly does not have that problem. The NT builds on and supercedes the OT. This The OT has much to teach us (in fact the NT would make little sense without a good understanding of the OT) but it no longer is the covenant we live under.

John
NZ

GE:

You're right.

To you, it means you can make your own laws, number one, I can write my own New Testament; I need not listen to the literal, strict letter of the Written New Testament. Number two, I establish my own day of worship as long as it is a) contrary "the Seventh Day God thus concerning did speak", and b), as long as it is Sunday and no other day God never concerning, thus did speak.

On these two laws of one's own self hang the whole law and covenant of righteousness by the works of that freedom which is from the Law of God.

Heavens · Apr 12, 2011

(Rev 13:5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
(Rev 13:6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

You are blessed Johnnz. Don't worry of the words of the false accuser.

Johnnz · Apr 12, 2011

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
GE:

You're right.

To you, it means you can make your own laws, number one, I can write my own New Testament; I need not listen to the literal, strict letter of the Written New Testament. Number two, I establish my own day of worship as long as it is a) contrary "the Seventh Day God thus concerning did speak", and b), as long as it is Sunday and no other day God never concerning, thus did speak.

On these two laws of one's own self hang the whole law and covenant of righteousness by the works of that freedom which is from the Law of God.

That's a reductio ad absurdum argument that I don't accept because I place a high value on scripture rightly understood. Nor is it in itself biblical anyway - Love God and love your neighbour are what the entire law hangs on according to Jesus.

John
NZ

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Apr 13, 2011

Well answered for as far as you answered, John NZ....

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Apr 13, 2011

Johnnz said:
To argue for the ongoing application of the Mosaic covenant you must ignore the many references in the NT, including the entire Book of Hebrews. If you take those other scriptures at face value (the law is now over) then you have a contradiction with Scripture if you argue for a literal Sabbath keeping (our Saturday).

An explanation that sees the biblical message as a series of historical events where God progressively reveals Himself more explicitly does not have that problem. The NT builds on and supercedes the OT. This The OT has much to teach us (in fact the NT would make little sense without a good understanding of the OT) but it no longer is the covenant we live under.

John
NZ

GE:

Would you say, dear John, that a believer of the Seventh Day Sabbath as The Lord's Day of Christians, could CONFESS THE EXACT SAME --- except for YOUR conclusion : "you have a contradiction with Scripture if you argue for a literal Sabbath keeping ", which obviously in toto is in contradiction with everything written in the _NEW_ Testament that "GOD, THUS CONCERNING THE SEVENTH DAY SPAKE"?

Johnnz · Apr 13, 2011

Col 2:16-17 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. NIV

This verse is quite clear. In the NT church there were people from different religious backgrounds. Thus issues such as holy days, 'unclean' foods, rituals, circumcision, arose within that community. Paul recognised the power of past beliefs and his own freedom from them in Christ. But he was sufficiently gracious to recognise that maturity took time, and thus Christians were not to judge each other on what were really peripheral matters. He saw Sabbath keeping in this way as that verse shows.

If ever Sabbath keeping as a specific day was necessary that letter to the Collossians was the time to spell it out, having actually mentioned the Sabbath. But Paul didn't do that.

John
NZ

Sabbath?

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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Galatians is the best!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Galatians is the best!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Galatians is the best!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Galatians is the best!

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Galatians is the best!

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