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One hardcore fact that Vic noted was that once you entered God's rest you it was a place that "TODAY" we can enter because Jesus is the firstfruit. God rest is never a 24hr day because God said noone had enter His rest in the passed generations.
That is a very valid point, and I do thank you for correcting my glaring technical blunderVic, the COI ate manna for 40yrs and kept sabbaths, so when God said remember the sabbath day, it was also continuum to what they had done for 40yrs.
Exd 16:35And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited; they did eat manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan.
Try placing that in its context, rather than lifting it as a sound bite. The rest looked forward to was from when Joshua led Israel into the promised land, from the immediately previous verse. Obviously this isn't a reference to the weekly sabbath, since Israel was already observing that ordinance. The rest looked forward to was Jesus Christ.The problem with saying that Christ fulfills the sabbath of creation is that Scripture quite clearly teaches, "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God" (Hebrews 4:9). The future rest is heaven, the weekly sabbath continues until we reach it!
Try placing that in its context, rather than lifting it as a sound bite. The rest looked forward to was from when Joshua led Israel into the promised land, from the immediately previous verse. Obviously this isn't a reference to the weekly sabbath, since Israel was already observing that ordinance. The rest looked forward to was Jesus Christ.
We have the Catholic Catechism, which asserts that the ten commandments have jurisdiction over the Gentiles, and yet they fail to cite the ordinance regarding graven images, and then disregard the sabbath when they assert that Sunday has somehow replaced it. Then they assume they can ordain ministerial "priests" under the order of Melchisedek, even though Hebrews 7 specifies it can't be delegated to mortals.This is really another debate; Christ has given to the Church teachers who have defended the faith once delivered to the saints against various errors. Through history doctrines have been developed that are founded upon Scripture. I believe that the confessions (for me, Westminster Standards) are a faithful summary and interpretation of the main tenents of the Word of God. The confessions are the roadmaps for the sometimes rugged biblical terrain. That is why I will use commentaries that teach the same doctrine as these, why? Because these interpret the Scriptures faithfully.
I'm completely amazed at how you drew this together, and then chose to shoot your foot off at the conclusion.Actually they do the very opposite. But the argument is complex and detailed so I will sketch the argument here. I would sugest that you take sometime to actually read up on the issue. I know someone who argues that the Scriptures teach that Christians are not to celebrate the Lord's supper! His proof is 1 Corinthians 11:20, "When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper." The verse in contexts actually teaches the very opposite but anyway....Let us place the verses that Paul wrote in Colossians into a context.
"So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ."A similar verse can be found in Paul's epistle to the Romans,
"One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks."There is then a context to Paul's saying these and the context is that of Jewish Christians demanding that Gentile Christians keep Jewish festivals new moons and sabbaths. That is the context. The question therefore is to ask what Paul meant by "a festival or a new moon or sabbaths".
The answer is found in the Old Testament. The easiest verse to see my point from is 2 Chronicles 8:13
"Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles."Granted the order of the terms is reversed but that is not relevant. What is important is to note the link between the phrase and the Mosaic worship. The link is of course Leviticus 23. Here we find Moses declaring to the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD. We find the Passover and Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Firstfruits, the Feast of Weeks, the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles. However the reference is far wider;
holyday; or feast, such as the feast of the passover, the feast of tabernacles, and the feast of Pentecost; which were three grand festivals, at which all the Jewish males were obliged to appear before the Lord; but were never binding upon the Gentiles, and were what the Christians under the Gospel dispensation had nothing to do with, and even believing Jews were freed from them, as having had their accomplishment in Christ; and therefore were not to be imposed upon them, or they condemned for the neglect of them.
the new moon; which the Jews were obliged to observe, by attending religious worship, and offering sacrifices; see
Numbers 28:11 "And in the beginnings of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot"
2 Kings 4:23 "So he said, 'Why are you going to him today? It is neither the New Moon nor the Sabbath.' And she said, 'It is well.'"
the sabbath days, or "sabbaths"; meaning the jubilee sabbath, which was one year in fifty; and the sabbath of the land, which was one year in seven; and the seventh day sabbath, and some copies read in the singular number, "or of the sabbath"; which were all peculiar to the Jews, were never binding on the Gentiles, and to which believers in Christ, be they who they will, are by no means obliged; nor ought they to observe them, the one any more than the other; and should they be imposed upon them, they ought to reject them; and should they be judged, censured, and condemned, for so doing, they ought not to mind it.
Paul's reference then was not to a weekly sabbath of any sorts. Indeed, this had originated at creation, was kept by the patriarchs, was kept by the Israelites. The sabbaths, new moons, and the solemn feasts were added to the religious calendar of Israel. These were part of the ceremonial worship under the Old Covenant. These sabbaths, new moons, and the solemn feasts prefigured the work of Christ and so were fulfilled in him. That was why the Gentile Christians did not have to keep Jewish ceremonies. These ceremonies were temporary, part of the ceremonial law of Israel, the weekly sabbath is however moral just like marriage. Marriage and the sabbath are both creation ordinances. Both are moral, both continue until Christ comes again.
Since you place that rest in the future tense, I believe you are at odds with the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, who identified his rest as a fait accompli in Hebrews 4:1-3The rest is the heavenly Canaan which we will enter into in the future.
Was, you mean - unless you really are intent on abiding in Sinai instead of Jesus Christ. The 'prefigured' ordinances were called shadows because they had a purpose as a component of the schoolmaster to show the recipient their need for a Redeemer. That is the summary expressed in Galatians 3:21-25:This future rest is prefigured in the weekly sabbath.
The problem with saying that Christ fulfills the sabbath of creation is that Scripture quite clearly teaches, "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God" (Hebrews 4:9). The future rest is heaven, the weekly sabbath continues until we reach it!
The rest is the heavenly Canaan which we will enter into in the future. This future rest is prefigured in the weekly sabbath.
As a friend of mine notes,
...when Christ brings in a new creation, he does not abrogate the Sabbath. Rather, the date on which the new creation came, which was Easter Sunday with the Resurrection of Christ, that date changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday.
It is a new creation. That is why we celebrate worship on Sunday.
Christ brought in the new creation on a Sunday.
With regard to the redemption reason for the Sabbath, Christ ushered in a new and greater Exodus. He has brought us out of our spiritual Egypt, just as God brought the Israelites out of their physical Egypt.
Ours is the greater deliverance. Therefore, we have all the more reason to celebrate the Christian Sabbath, which is Sunday.
We have all the more reason to cease from work, since Christ finished His work of creation with the resurrection.
His resurrection means that there is a rest remaining for us. Paul says this in Hebrews 4:8ff. Because Jesus is our high priest who has entered into that rest, we should strive to enter that rest. What this means is final eternal rest.
In the background to this, it is necessary to remember the Sabbath structure of the OT. You have the Sabbath, which occurs on the seventh day. Then you have a Sabbatical year, which occurs in the seventh year. During that year, the land was to have rest, and slaves who were fellow Israelites were supposed to be released. Then you have the year of Jubilee, which was a seventh Sabbatical year. It was truly a Sabbath of Sabbaths. All land that had been sold to someone else was to be returned to the original owner. There is a telescoping of these Sabbaths from week to year to Jubilee. This points to the great Sabbath of eternity that still remains for the people of God. It is that Sabbath that Paul is talking about in Hebrews.
If we are truly to be Sabbath keepers, then we need to have Jesus as our high priest, who has passed through the heavens and entered that rest.
See, the reason we might not enter into that rest is our own sin (Hebrews 4:11). Only pure people may enter into that final rest. Jesus gives us His purity if we believe in him, so that we can enter that rest finally. So ultimately, the Sabbath command is a command to believe in Jesus Christ.
But if you already believe in Jesus Christ, then there are further applications. I have argued here that the force of the Fourth Commandment is still in effect in the NT era.
In fact, we have more reason to keep the Christian Sabbath than the Israelites had to keep the OT Sabbath. Do you work on Sunday? This day was given to you for a blessing.
It says in Genesis that God blessed the Sabbath day. That means that he blesses the one who holds it sacred.
If you are tired and fatigued, one of the reasons may be that you are not observing the Sabbath properly.
[It is a day of rest. We are to stop from our employment. We are to bask in the glory of God in worship. We are to feed the hungry, visit the sick, the old and infirm, we are to have fellowship with one another. We are to read healthy spiritual books that we do not have time for on the other days of the week.
When we do these things, we are calling the Sabbath a delight. We are honoring it by keeping it holy, we remember the creation of the world, and the new creation brought about by Jesus. And we remember the great salvation that God has brought about, which it written in all the pages of Scripture. That is the relevance of the Sabbath for us. “This is the day that the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it.”
VictorC said:The answer to your question should become apparent when you appeal for forgiveness when you broke the sabbath ordinance last week, and then you come along and break the sabbath commandment this coming week, and the week after that, and continue to break the sabbath everyweek - just as you have always broken the sabbath. Just as Israel had always broken the sabbath, and just as Israel was unable to abide by the whole book of the law for as long as it had jurisdiction over its 1500 year long history. That invokes the curse mentioned in Galatians 3:10:
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
VictorC said:23: But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
VictorC said:This 'sabbath' was a one-time event. God had finished His work of creation, and did not return to it. He did not rest again on the 14th day, nor the 21st, 28th, etc.
God alone rested this day; Adam had no works to rest from, and he is completely absent from this account.
Adventtruth said:A principle for whom? Not gentiles but the Jews
VictorC said:Yes, the Jewish (Israeli, actually) festivals and dietary ordinances have all been dismissed, consistent with the point that I made earlier.
VictorC said:Try placing that in its context, rather than lifting it as a sound bite. The rest looked forward to was from when Joshua led Israel into the promised land, from the immediately previous verse. Obviously this isn't a reference to the weekly sabbath, since Israel was already observing that ordinance. The rest looked forward to was Jesus Christ.
Adventtruth said:It could be that one has not had proper rest from physical labor. Can a person observe Thursday as their sabbath if they so choose?
VictorC said:That is my appeal as well, that we accept the original wheel rather than use commentaries that are questionable, having been infected by traditions introduced by Catholicism, Millerism, and other various heresies.
There was a time in Israel's history when God blessed her and allowed her to prosper. Then God withdrew his protection and delivered Israel into the hands of the Gentiles. What was it in Israel that had changed? Did the Israelites ever break the Law when they were blessed? Certainly, but in those days, when sin was discovered it was repented of and put away. Take David. He didn't rely on the Law to make him just before God:
"But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation."
Psalm 13:5
He knew he was a sinner, that he had broken God's Law, but it did not stop him from declaring repeatedly in Psalm 119 "How I love thy Law!" Not because he could keep it, but because he knew that it was righteous. Repentance does not mean admitting that you are a sinner, it means a godly sorrow for your sins, actually the New Testament word means to turn away from your sin and towards God. Is somebody who is truly remorseful for their sins going to say that they are free to sin as they please? Even if it were true? Or will he, to the best of his ability, put sinful habits out of his life, not in order to earn salvation, but because he hates sin? Without striving to keep the Law there is no repentance, and without repentance, no forgiveness. Grace is changed from from an offer to turn your own wickedness to a license to live however you please. Christ then becomes only a Savior from death, not a Savior from sin. Wanting eternal life is one thing. Being willing to be delivered from your sin is quite another.
When you finish you studies, you are no longer under the schoolmaster's authority, but do you forget what your schoolmaster taught you? Or is the reason why you are no longer under your schoolmaster because you are expected to already know what he would have to teach you? Also, if the Gentiles were never under the Law, why does Paul assert that they (the church of Rome was Gentile) ever were under a schoolmaster?
So in the Fourth Commandment, when God said to rest on the seventh day, He was only talking about one particular seventh day, not every seventh day. To be consistent in your interpretation, that is what you would have to conclude.
"And the LORD God took Adam, and put him in the garden of Eden to dress it and keep it.
"
Genesis 2:15
"In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:28
Typical to deride the feasts by calling them "Jewish" (implying that they are not Christian) when God states that they are His feasts.
"Speak to the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts."
Lev. 23:2
They could, if it was most convenient for them, but then what would that say about what priority God has in their life?
when Christ brings in a new creation, he does not abrogate the Sabbath. Rather, the date on which the new creation came, which was Easter Sunday with the Resurrection of Christ, that date changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday. It is a new creation. That is why we celebrate worship on Sunday. Christ brought in the new creation on a Sunday.
I'll deal with the false premise here. The Gospels do not say that Christ rose on the first day of the week, they say that Mary and Mary Magdalene came to the tomb at the crack of dawn on the first day of the week and found it empty.
Also:
"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whales belly; so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Matt. 12:39-40
Being buried for three days and three nights (72 hours) would place the resurrection at the same time of day as his burial, i.e., just before sunset, on the Sabbath. Notice that being buried three days and three nights was the sign that Jesus was truly the Messiah, that he truly was the Savior of the world. You simply can't get three days and three nights from a Friday crucifixion to a Sunday resurrection.
Also, Mark 16:1 and Luke 23:56 state that the women had bought and prepared spices to anoint Jesus' body after he was crucified. That means there had to have been a working day between the crucifixion and the resurrection. At no time would the markets have been open between Friday sunset and Sunday sunrise.
So, in summary.
Tuesday:
Christ keeps the Passover with his disciples on evening of 14 Nisan.
Wednesday:
Christ crucified at noon on 14 Nisan, as foreshadowed by the killing of the Passover Lamb. He dies at 3PM. As sunset drew closer, the victims are taken down from the cross so as not to leave them hanging on 15 Nisan, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was a high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."
John 19:31
A "high" Sabbath means an annual Sabbath, as opposed to the weekly Sabbath.
Thursday:
15 Nisan, first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, also called "the day after the Day of Preparation. Regular work ceases.
Friday:
The high Sabbath is past. The women buy and prepare spices to anoint Christ's body.
"And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him."
Mark 16:1
Saturday:
The women rest on the sabbath day after preparing the spices.
"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment."
Luke 23:56
Note they kept the Sabbath after the crucifixion, on this side of the cross. So much for the claim that the Sabbath was abolished by the cross!
Christ resurrected just before sunset, fulfilling the sign of Jonah.
Sunday:
The women come to the tomb with the prepared spices and find him already risen.
Actually, bbbbbb or whatever his name is made some very valid points that I would be curious to see your response to. I don't agree with bbbb's contention that the sabbath exists in the present-tense, but he is absolutely correct in pointing out that it was Israel who received the sabbath ordinance, and no one else.
Victor
I had asked you to find a sabbath prior to Moses.
I'll deal with the false premise here. The Gospels do not say that Christ rose on the first day of the week, they say that Mary and Mary Magdalene came to the tomb at the crack of dawn on the first day of the week and found it empty.
Also:
"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whales belly; so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Matt. 12:39-40
Being buried for three days and three nights (72 hours) would place the resurrection at the same time of day as his burial, i.e., just before sunset, on the Sabbath. Notice that being buried three days and three nights was the sign that Jesus was truly the Messiah, that he truly was the Savior of the world. You simply can't get three days and three nights from a Friday crucifixion to a Sunday resurrection.
Also, Mark 16:1 and Luke 23:56 state that the women had bought and prepared spices to anoint Jesus' body after he was crucified. That means there had to have been a working day between the crucifixion and the resurrection. At no time would the markets have been open between Friday sunset and Sunday sunrise.
So, in summary.
Tuesday:
Christ keeps the Passover with his disciples on evening of 14 Nisan.
Wednesday:
Christ crucified at noon on 14 Nisan, as foreshadowed by the killing of the Passover Lamb. He dies at 3PM. As sunset drew closer, the victims are taken down from the cross so as not to leave them hanging on 15 Nisan, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was a high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."
John 19:31
A "high" Sabbath means an annual Sabbath, as opposed to the weekly Sabbath.
Thursday:
15 Nisan, first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, also called "the day after the Day of Preparation. Regular work ceases.
Friday:
The high Sabbath is past. The women buy and prepare spices to anoint Christ's body.
"And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him."
Mark 16:1
Saturday:
The women rest on the sabbath day after preparing the spices.
"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment."
Luke 23:56
Note they kept the Sabbath after the crucifixion, on this side of the cross. So much for the claim that the Sabbath was abolished by the cross!
Christ resurrected just before sunset, fulfilling the sign of Jonah.
Sunday:
The women come to the tomb with the prepared spices and find him already risen.
Thank you, Victor. My name is David and I used to post as David01 until CF changed my password, forcing me to reregister. I decided to take on bbbbbbb, as in the sound created when one moves one's index finger across the lips while blowing.
I only believe that the sabbath exists today in the sense that there is a seventh day (Saturday) at the end of the week. Beyond that, if the Jews choose to observe it, it certainly does not affect their covenant standing before God, which can only come through entering the perfect rest of Messiah.
I had dealt with Genesis 2:1-3 before, in my post submission to Him, and entering into His rest (not ours), where I made these comments:Direct evidence
1. Genesis 2:1-3
2. Genesis 4:3
Prima facie evidence
1. Genesis 5:29
2. Genesis 7: 10
3. Genesis 8:10, 12
4. Genesis 29:27
John MacArthur notes:
The chronological reckoning between John's gospel and the synoptics presents a challenge, especially in relation to the time of the Last Supper (13:2). While the synoptics portray the disciples and the Lord at the Last Supper as eating the Passover meal on Thursday evening (Nisan 14) and Jesus being crucified on Friday, John's gospel states that the Jews did not enter into the Praetorium "lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover" (18:28). So, the disciples had eaten the Passover on Thursday evening, but the Jews had not. In fact, John (19:14) states that Jesus' trial and crucifixion were on the day of Preparation for the Passover and not after the eating of the Passover, so that with the trial and crucifixion on Friday Christ was actually sacrificed at the same time the Passover lambs were being slain (19:14). The question is, "Why did the disciples eat the Passover meal on Thursday?"See also "The Chronology of the Last Supper" by Barry D. Smith
The answer lies in a difference among the Jews in the way they reckoned the beginning and ending of days. From Josephus, the Mishna, and other ancient Jewish sources we learn that the Jews in northern Palestine calculated days from sunrise to sunrise. That area included the region of Galilee, where Jesus and all the disciples, except Judas, had grown up. Apparently most, if not all, of the Pharisees used that system of reckoning. But Jews in the southern part, which centered in Jerusalem, calculated days from sunset to sunset. Because all the priests necessarily lived in or near Jerusalem, as did most of the Sadducees, those groups followed the southern scheme.
That variation doubtlessly caused confusion at times, but it also had some practical benefits. During Passover time, for instance, it allowed for the feast to be celebrated legitimately on two adjoining days, thereby permitting the temple sacrifices to be made over a total period of four hours rather than two. That separation of days may also have had the effect of reducing both regional and religious clashes between the two groups.
On that basis the seeming contradictions in the gospel accounts are easily explained. Being Galileans, Jesus and His disciples considered Passover day to have started at sunrise on Thursday and to end at sunrise on Friday. The Jewish leaders who arrested and tried Jesus, being mostly priests and Sadducees, considered Passover day to begin at sunset on Thursday and end at sunset on Friday. By that variation, predetermined by God's sovereign provision, Jesus could thereby legitimately celebrate the last Passover meal with His disciples and yet still be sacrificed on Passover day.
It sounds as if your appeal is for the name of the day at the end of the week, and that's fine with me. I prefer assemblies on Saturday, based on the tradition from the Scriptures - but I fully recognize that the ordinances that governed what day we assemble have been retired, and this is why passages such as Colossians 2:16-17 mention that we have no basis to judge the practice anyone else chooses to observe.Thank you, Victor. My name is David and I used to post as David01 until CF changed my password, forcing me to reregister. I decided to take on bbbbbbb, as in the sound created when one moves one's index finger across the lips while blowing.
I only believe that the sabbath exists today in the sense that there is a seventh day (Saturday) at the end of the week. Beyond that, if the Jews choose to observe it, it certainly does not affect their covenant standing before God, which can only come through entering the perfect rest of Messiah.
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