sabbath in exodus 5:5

Adventist Dissident · Apr 21, 2009

sabbath refrence prior to exoudus 16
I was talking to Slyverster Case. Professor at UNION college. he mentioned that Exodus 5:5 mentioned the sabbath. I looked it up and sure enough it did. the question is what dose it mean. is this evedience of sabbath keeping prior to the giving of the covenant?

http://scripturetext.com/exodus/5-5.htm

what should we make of this text. scroll down to the lexicon to find shawbath

ricker · Apr 21, 2009

icedragon101 said:
sabbath refrence prior to exoudus 16
I was talking to Slyverster Case. Professor at UNION college. he mentioned that Exodus 5:5 mentioned the sabbath. I looked it up and sure enough it did. the question is what dose it mean. is this evedience of sabbath keeping prior to the giving of the covenant?

http://scripturetext.com/exodus/5-5.htm

what should we make of this text. scroll down to the lexicon to find shawbath

Exodus 5 never comes close to mentioning the weekly Sabbath. To postulate it does is adding to the Bible big time.

'Let my people go, that they may hold a feast to me in the wilderness.'" 2But Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and moreover, I will not let Israel go." 3Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please let us go a three days journey into the wilderness that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God, lest he fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword." 4But the king of Egypt said to them, "Moses and Aaron, why do you take the people away from their work? Get back to your burdens."

If the weekly Sabbath was known right before they were saved from slavery in Egypt, why were they so oblivious right after as shown in Exodus 16?

Adventist Dissident · Apr 21, 2009

ricker said:
Exod

us 5 never comes close to mentioning the weekly Sabbath. To postulate it does is adding to the Bible big time.

Click to expand...

you are right ricker it is not explicityly stated there. That was not the purpose of the post. the purpose of the post was to seek a counter argumetn to Sylverster Case's view on this matter. I don't know what to make of it. to me I could could go either way. I am not sure.

'Let my people go, that they may hold a feast to me in the wilderness.'" 2But Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and moreover, I will not let Israel go." 3Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please let us go a three days journey into the wilderness that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God, lest he fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword." 4But the king of Egypt said to them, "Moses and Aaron, why do you take the people away from their work? Get back to your burdens."

If the weekly Sabbath was known right before they were saved from slavery in Egypt, why were they so oblivious right after as shown in Exodus 16?

Click to expand...

I am not sure what you are asking here could you reword the question? it is the second part that is confusing me.

Cribstyl · Apr 22, 2009

What's up my freinds ICE_D and Vic

ICE_D..It seem clear that Ex5:5 is God's plan in the works to set the COI free. Moses was asking Pharoah specifically for at least 1week vacation to go 3days journey one way and 3day journey back from Mt Sinai, to have a feast and worship God for the first time in hundreds of years.
God explained in chapter 3 that He would harden Pharaohs heart to reject the plan....so He can show off His power by and set the people free.

Read the script brother; The COI did not know God for hundred of years
Exd 3:13And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them?

Exd 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exd 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.
Exd 3:16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and [seen] that which is done to you in Egypt:
Exd 3:17 And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.
Exd 3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.
Exd 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
Exd 3:20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.
Exd 3:21 And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty:
............................................................................................

Here is where the COI who was in bondage first believed who was their God.

Exd 4:30And Aaron spake all the words which the LORD had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people.
Exd 4:31And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.
...................................................................................................

Exd 5:3And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.

Exd 5:4And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.
Exd 5:5And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now [are] many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.
Exd 5:6And Pharaoh commanded the same day the taskmasters of the people, and their officers, saying,
Exd 5:7Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore: let them go and gather straw for themselves.

ICE, Pharoah never agreed to time off work, he was asking in verse 5:4 "why do you and Aaron want to keep(let) the people from working.....?" In 5:5 Pharoah is saying...."Are you crazy,there is so many of them and you want them to rest?......5:6,7 Let's see how you like making your own bricks from now on.

CRIB

sentipente · Apr 22, 2009

icedragon101 said:
sabbath refrence prior to exoudus 16
I was talking to Slyverster Case. Professor at UNION college. he mentioned that Exodus 5:5 mentioned the sabbath. I looked it up and sure enough it did. the question is what dose it mean. is this evedience of sabbath keeping prior to the giving of the covenant?

http://scripturetext.com/exodus/5-5.htm

what should we make of this text. scroll down to the lexicon to find shawbath

This is the kind of stuff that gives Christians a bad name in academics. This is the equivalent of saying that anyone who has the name Jesus is the Messiah. Shameful.

Cribstyl · Apr 22, 2009

icedragon101 said:
sabbath refrence prior to exoudus 16
I was talking to Slyverster Case. Professor at UNION college. he mentioned that Exodus 5:5 mentioned the sabbath. I looked it up and sure enough it did. the question is what dose it mean. is this evedience of sabbath keeping prior to the giving of the covenant?

http://scripturetext.com/exodus/5-5.htm

what should we make of this text. scroll down to the lexicon to find shawbath

ICE, I read more than 5chapters before my reply, can I get a response from you to #10
I'm I missing something about the OP? The question appears related to scripture. Ex 5:5

CRIB

Adventist Dissident · Apr 22, 2009

sentipente said:
This is the kind of stuff that gives Christians a bad name in academics. This is the equivalent of saying that anyone who has the name Jesus is the Messiah. Shameful.

what is the problem with is question? I am seeking a counter to cases argument. what did you find objectionalbe.

Adventist Dissident · Apr 22, 2009

Cribstyl said:
What's up my freinds ICE_D and Vic

ICE_D..It seem clear that Ex5:5 is God's plan in the works to set the COI free. Moses was asking Pharoah specifically for at least 1week vacation to go 3days journey one way and 3day journey back from Mt Sinai, to have a feast and worship God for the first time in hundreds of years.
God explained in chapter 3 that He would harden Pharaohs heart to reject the plan....so He can show off His power by and set the people free.

Read the script brother; The COI did not know God for hundred of years
Exd 3:13And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them?

Exd 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exd 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.
Exd 3:16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and [seen] that which is done to you in Egypt:
Exd 3:17 And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.
Exd 3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.
Exd 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
Exd 3:20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.
Exd 3:21 And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty:
............................................................................................

Here is where the COI who was in bondage first believed who was their God.

Exd 4:30And Aaron spake all the words which the LORD had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people.
Exd 4:31And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.
...................................................................................................

Exd 5:3And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.

Exd 5:4And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.
Exd 5:5And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now [are] many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.
Exd 5:6And Pharaoh commanded the same day the taskmasters of the people, and their officers, saying,
Exd 5:7Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore: let them go and gather straw for themselves.

ICE, Pharoah never agreed to time off work, he was asking in verse 5:4 "why do you and Aaron want to keep(let) the people from working.....?" In 5:5 Pharoah is saying...."Are you crazy,there is so many of them and you want them to rest?......5:6,7 Let's see how you like making your own bricks from now on.

CRIB

i simply don't disagree with you on this, except for the fact the the COI did know God. The reason this is an issue is the the concept of shabath was known prior to the covenat, weather in verb for or noun form. Pharoh already had knowledge of the term. It's not like he had to look it up in the hebrew-egyptian dictonary. this indicated he had some pror knoweldge of the concept of rest and looks like the preservation of the concept in egyptian or hebrew language?

Cribstyl · Apr 22, 2009

Testing: one, two. Hellooooooooo

ricker · Apr 22, 2009

icedragon101 said:
i simply don't disagree with you on this, except for the fact the the COI did know God. The reason this is an issue is the the concept of shabath was known prior to the covenat, weather in verb for or noun form. Pharoh already had knowledge of the term. It's not like he had to look it up in the hebrew-egyptian dictonary. this indicated he had some pror knoweldge of the concept of rest and looks like the preservation of the concept in egyptian or hebrew language?

OK, if everybody including the Pharoh knew about the sabbath and it's rest, kindly explain the utter cluelessness of the COI in Exodus 16. Thanks.

Sophia7 · Apr 22, 2009

icedragon101 said:
i simply don't disagree with you on this, except for the fact the the COI did know God. The reason this is an issue is the the concept of shabath was known prior to the covenat, weather in verb for or noun form. Pharoh already had knowledge of the term. It's not like he had to look it up in the hebrew-egyptian dictonary. this indicated he had some pror knoweldge of the concept of rest and looks like the preservation of the concept in egyptian or hebrew language?

The concept of cessation of labor was known. There is no evidence that the concept of resting from labor every seventh day was known before Exodus 16.

Adventist Dissident · Apr 22, 2009

ricker said:
OK, if everybody including the Pharoh knew about the sabbath and it's rest, kindly explain the utter cluelessness of the COI in Exodus 16. Thanks.

they were slaves! don't you get that that what is being taught is that because they were oppressed they lost a knowledge of who God was. it show the nature of sin, that sin will destory every aspect of knowledge of God. being a slave would have prohibited them from worshiping God as they saw fit including on the sabbath. that is one reason the absence of it dose not matter, because what it is showing ist that sin destroys every facet of the knowledge of God including that have that there is a creator who made and owns everything. If pharoah had acknowledged that. then he would not have still been alive after Moses came.

Cribstyl · Apr 22, 2009

icedragon101 said:
i simply don't disagree with you on this, except for the fact the the COI did know God.

Can you show some texts to prove your understanding?

By God promising to make them His people means that as a nation were not God's people before He declared it. The promises and covenant to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were progressive to date.

Exd 6:7And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

2Sa 7:23And what one nation in the earth [is] like thy people, [even] like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, [from] the nations and their gods?

The reason this is an issue is the the concept of shabath was known prior to the covenat, weather in verb for or noun form. Pharoh already had knowledge of the term. It's not like he had to look it up in the hebrew-egyptian dictonary. this indicated he had some pror knoweldge of the concept of rest and looks like the preservation of the concept in egyptian or hebrew language?

Hmmmm, Does Moses who wrote Exodus indicate that Pharoah knew something about sabbath or does the Hebrew word that Moses used "sabath" just simply means "to cease", "rest"??
The big question is, was Moses requesting one of seven days to rest or not?? NO
The fact that Pharoah said NO to this first request for 7+days to go and worship shows that Pharoah had no idea or concern about any sabbath or regard to the Hebrew God.

Thanks for the response
CRIB

ricker · Apr 22, 2009

icedragon101 said:
they were slaves! don't you get that that what is being taught is that because they were oppressed they lost a knowledge of who God was. it show the nature of sin, that sin will destory every aspect of knowledge of God. being a slave would have prohibited them from worshiping God as they saw fit including on the sabbath. that is one reason the absence of it dose not matter, because what it is showing ist that sin destroys every facet of the knowledge of God including that have that there is a creator who made and owns everything. If pharoah had acknowledged that. then he would not have still been alive after Moses came.

You said the COI did know God in the thread I quoted. You said even the Pharoh had a knowledge of the term. You imply the Pharoh wouldn't let the slaves have a sabbath rest when they asked for one, and then you say the slaves didn't know what it was.

VictorC · Apr 22, 2009

icedragon101 said:
they were slaves! don't you get that that what is being taught is that because they were oppressed they lost a knowledge of who God was. it show the nature of sin, that sin will destory every aspect of knowledge of God. being a slave would have prohibited them from worshiping God as they saw fit including on the sabbath. that is one reason the absence of it dose not matter, because what it is showing ist that sin destroys every facet of the knowledge of God including that have that there is a creator who made and owns everything. If pharoah had acknowledged that. then he would not have still been alive after Moses came.

Icedragon, Exodus 16:4-5 states that the manna experience and the sabbath were for a purpose of determining if Israel would keep a law that was to be introduced about a month later than this time:

4: Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
5: And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

The simplest explanation is generally taken as the one with the greatest merit, when a blunt statement to the effect that there was a pre-existing sabbath isn't to be found in Scripture. Searching the Genesis record finds that there is no sabbath to be found anytime prior to Exodus 16 - only God's "My rest" from creation that man didn't partake in, that is referred to as another day in Hebrews 4.

I must note that your intent is to find such a weekly sabbath that existed previous to the manna experience, so that you can make the claim that the sabbath can continue to be a ordinance that survived the disposition that Jesus Christ made in taking away the first covenant recorded in Hebrews 10:9.

Yet you had made this claim to the opposite effect earlier in this same thread:

icedragon101 said:
victor please show me where I said any thing about a weekly sabbath. I simily said that shabbath was mentioned in Ex:5:5 that is all. you read in to it. everything else. you this forum where i mentioned a weekly sabbath. Please do. for those who are reading this post. the link provided will show that. when I posted the exact same thing and said nothing about the weekely sabbath. Victor and everone else assumed I was refereing to the weekly sabbat. i simply wated to discuss the evidence and what it ment.

The evidence presented means that Pharoah was referring to a rest from making bricks, and not a sabbath. The evidence that comes from Israel's difficulty observing the sabbath until they tried it again strongly suggests that it was a brand new concept they had never experienced before.

That is the simplest explanation, and the Biblical record contains nothing to contradict acceptance of this explanation. As such, it is the most reliable explanation, with the greatest merit. The weekly sabbath didn't exist prior to the time God gave it to the children of Israel via the hand of Moses.

VictorC

sentipente · Apr 22, 2009

icedragon101 said:
what is the problem with is question? I am seeking a counter to cases argument. what did you find objectionalbe.

Case does not have an argument. All he has is a sermon. As we well know, sermons don't necessarily have to be logical.

Xenon · Apr 22, 2009

I'd have to go with the majority here. Why would God have to teach them about the seventh-day Sabbath later on if they knew about it here? It is possible that God could have had them arrive to sacrifice on the seventh day (Moses did wait 7 days before coming back once), but that's pure speculation on my part and certainly not anything to base doctrine off of. There are far better reasons to keep the seventh-day Sabbath than this text.

Adventist Dissident · Apr 22, 2009

Cribstyl said:
Can you show some texts to prove your understanding?
By God promising to make them His people means that as a nation were not God's people before He declared it. The promises and covenant to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were progressive to date.

Click to expand...

no this is just a bad conclusion. When moses went before the elders and showed him the mircles He did not have to expaline who this God was they simply accepted. In exodus the mid-wifes were said to fear God as the reason for disobediance to pharoh. They knew the pomise given to abraham, Isacc, jacob and Joseph. Exodus is clear on the it opens with a reference Joseph and that a new Pharaoh ruled that did not know him.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=6&v=7&t=KJV#comm/7

Exd 6:7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

2Sa 7:23 http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=6&v=7&t=KJV#comm/7And what one nation in the earth [is] like thy people, [even] like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, [from] the nations and their gods?

Click to expand...

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=6&v=7&t=KJV#comm/7http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Exd&c=6&v=7&t=KJV#comm/7

Hmmmm, Does Moses who wrote Exodus indicate that Pharoah knew something about sabbath or does the Hebrew word that Moses used "sabath" just simply means "to cease", "rest"??
The big question is, was Moses requesting one of seven days to rest or not?? NO
The fact that Pharoah said NO to this first request for 7+days to go and worship shows that Pharoah had no idea or concern about any sabbath or regard to the Hebrew God.

Click to expand...

that is not the point. who knew is not the issue. what was know is. the useage of the term would indicate a prior knowledge. unless you believe that language began at that point.

bugkiller · Apr 23, 2009

icedragon101 said:
that is not the point. who knew is not the issue. what was know is. the useage of the term would indicate a prior knowledge. unless you believe that language began at that point.

Ever heard of morph? Just look at any language today. New words have been added and meanings have common usage meanings have changed or been added. Your foundation is like quick sand and will not support anything.

bugkiller

StormyOne · Apr 23, 2009

its amazing how far assumptions will take an argument.... i.e. "Moses who wrote Exodus..." Is that an established fact? I don't believe it is....

sabbath in exodus 5:5

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