Sabbatarianism and the 1689 Confession: Were the Particular Baptists wrong?

LarryP2 · Apr 15, 2014

progmonk said:
Bob, the whole reason I deny your theonomic position from the basis of the Confession I confess is 21.1

This is the crux of the issue, obedience to the Law for you is at best theonomic and at worst salvific, for me it is at least theonomic but far more than that it points to Christ who is the hope of salvation, I have access to the throne of Grace through the indwelling spirit, you await for Christ to judge you and hope he will be merciful.

Progmonk;

In a few related threads, I have analyzed the whole deceptive and dishonest interplay between the Sabbath Spam posting and the horrifying "Investigative Judgment" doctrine that is the "fine print" that never gets mentioned.

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been renouncing the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years.

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation

CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

BobRyan · Apr 15, 2014

progmonk said:
Bob, the whole reason I deny your theonomic position from the basis of the Confession I confess is 21.1
This is the crux of the issue, obedience to the Law for you is at best theonomic and at worst salvific, for me it is at least theonomic but far more than that it points to Christ who is the hope of salvation, I have access to the throne of Grace through the indwelling spirit,

You can only go so far in agreeing with the view I state for myself while claiming to invent a new one for me to differ with.

For opposing my view - you have to "quote me" and then differ.

As I said in page 1 (see post #4 )- I never claim that the lost must obey the Law of God to become saved. Perfection/sinlessness is not the condition that stands in the way of the lost - for Christ stands in their place. Surrender is where they fail or stand - because they have been given free will and may choose to surrender to Christ - confess and repent or not.

in Christ,

Bob

Keachian · Apr 15, 2014

The thing is neither your sources nor those who use your sources believe the command is being bent or that our understanding of it is man-made tradition. That is why it is objectionable that you use those sources, you're presentation doesn't let them speak for themselves on the validity of the observance, you are presupposing that we "bend" the command to tradition and presenting our position from that bias.

BobRyan · Apr 15, 2014

Originally Posted by LarryP2

Every time Moody refers to the Sabbath, he is referring to Sunday NOT the 7th Day Sabbath. <obligatory factless rant deleted here> .

So oddly enough - once again you are making the point that I make in "post 2" of this thread

==========================

For the sake of "full disclosure" and context - I think we need to list all the details related to this subject from the BCF.

[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].

I don't claim to agree with all 7 of the points that the BCF is making - only 6 out of the 7 do I agree with.

But there are many on this board who are at war with all 7.
==============================================

Why keep doing that???

Wouldn't you rather make "your point" mine???[/FONT][/FONT]

LarryP2 said:
Progmonk;

In a few related threads, I have analyzed the whole deceptive ... <obligatory factless rant deleted here>

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented

At which point another list - in complete harmony with the 7 points I listed -- is displayed.

How sad that you are stuck making my point for me.

Why keep doing that??

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 15, 2014

==========================

For the sake of "full disclosure" and context - I think we need to list all the details related to this subject from the BCF.

[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].

I don't claim to agree with all 7 of the points that the BCF is making - only 6 out of the 7 do I agree with.

But there are many on this board who are at war with all 7.
==============================================

[/FONT][/FONT]

progmonk said:
The thing is neither your sources nor those who use your sources believe the command is being bent .

The BCF uses the word "CHANGED" --- I use the word "BENT".

And all of those who post here at war with God's TEN Commandments would argue that the 4th commandment is not to be "Bent" or "Changed" but rather is abolished.

(Again... this is the "easy part" of the discussion. It is the starting context. )

in Christ,

Bob

LarryP2 · Apr 15, 2014

progmonk said:
The thing is neither your sources nor those who use your sources believe the command is being bent or that our understanding of it is man-made tradition. That is why it is objectionable that you use those sources, you're presentation doesn't let them speak for themselves on the validity of the observance, you are presupposing that we "bend" the command to tradition and presenting our position from that bias.

A better way of putting it is that it is outright, intentional deceit and fraud to misuse those sources in the way they are being used. ALL of those sources predicate Sunday worship on the astonishing, world-busting Resurrection event. ALL of them renounce the Ebionite/Judaizing heresy of Sabbath keeping that Christianity has condemned for 2,000 years. It is absolutely an amazing consistency across many centuries of time, language barriers and geographical separation. Seventh Day Adventism is simply the modern version of an ancient, anti-Christian heresy.

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been renouncing the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years.

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation

CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

Keachian · Apr 15, 2014

BobRyan said:
You can only go so far in agreeing with the view I state for myself while claiming to invent a new one for me to differ with.

For opposing my view - you have to "quote me" and then differ.

As I said in page 1 (see post #4 )- I never claim that the lost must obey the Law of God to become saved. Perfection/sinlessness is not the condition that stands in the way of the lost - for Christ stands in their place. Surrender is where they fail or stand - because they have been given free will and may choose to surrender to Christ - confess and repent or not.

in Christ,

Bob

You don't have liberty of faith on this matter, you have to believe what EGW/28F/GC says regarding the observance of the Law and that is that observance of the Law is the defining characteristic of the SDA and what separates them as the people of God to be saved from all us heathens.

LarryP2 · Apr 15, 2014

BobRyan said:
I never claim that the lost must obey the Law of God to become saved. Perfection/sinlessness is not the condition that stands in the way of the lost - for Christ stands in their place. Surrender is where they fail or stand - because they have been given free will and may choose to surrender to Christ - confess and repent or not.

That is an egregiously false, completely deceptive and willful misrepresentation of the doctrinal stance of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. The following quote is directly out of S.D.A. BIBLE COMMENTARY VOL. 1, PAGE 1105:

"The ten commandments, Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not, are ten promises, assured to us if we render obedience to the law governing the universe. “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Here is the sum and substance of the law of God. The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined (Manuscript 41, 1896).
......
"That law of ten precepts of the greatest love that can be presented to man is the voice of God from heaven speaking to the soul in promise, “This do, and you will not come under the dominion and control of Satan.” There is not a negative in that law, although it may appear thus. It is DO, and Live (Letter 89, 1898).

Ellen G. White Writings

Get it? The Ten Commandments are the "greatest love that can be presented to man?" Not the Cross. Not Forgiveness. Not Jesus. Not the Resurrection.

Here's more:

EGW wrote in "The Faith I Live By" p. 211,

"At the time appointed for the judgement - the close of the 2300 days, in 1844 began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins...both the living and the dead are to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works". (Rev. 20:12"
.....
The Faith I Live By, page 210,

"Every man's work passes in review before God...Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered, with terrible exactness, every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel."
.....
"...Those who are living on the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil....". (The Great Controversy p. 425).

http://mmoutreachinc.com/seventh_day_adventists/sda_facts.html

Assuming that serving God is a prerequisite for salvation; versus serving an "Apostate Power" by worshiping on Sunday:

"In this revelation, Mrs. White was carried down to the close of time and saw the Sabbath as the great testing truth on which men decide whether to serve God or to serve an apostate power (Early Writings, pp. 21,22)."
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/white.htm\

It is also a deceptive statement and a serious misrepresentation of Adventist Doctrine that "Sinless Perfection" is not the proof of Salvation for Adventists, or that Christ will "stand in the place" of the sinner as was claimed:

"Is more required of the candidates for translation than of others who have lived and died in Christ? I answer, Most certainly, Why?—Because those who shall be translated must reach that degree of perfection while in the flesh that will enable them to stand in the last times without a mediator. That means much,—a great deal more I fear than many of us realize."

". . . if His work as mediator began just as soon as the necessity for it arose, we conclude that it will cease only when the necessity for it ceases. But this necessity for mediation arose when man became a sinner, a being in rebellion against his Maker, an apostate. Hence it will cease only when God's children in the flesh have been restored to that complete harmony with God which was enjoyed by man before he sinned. That is to say, he who will be translated will be as perfectly conformed to the image of Christ, the purpose for which he was called (Rom. 8:28, 29), as Adam before he sinned was conformed to the image of God."
http://www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadventist/SDAPart1/1.html

There is little, if anything that would distinguish Seventh Day Adventitism from the Second Century heresy of the Ebionites which was fiercely condemned by all of the Early Church Fathers. The Ebionite heresy included Sabbath Keeping and Vegetarianism as prerequisites for Salvation. Adventism's founding Prophet clearly believed that vegetarianism is necessary to Salvation:

"Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people to walk no more with them". (Counsels on Diets and Food, p. 382)

"No meat-eaters will be "translated" at Christ's coming" (Counsels on Diet and Foods p. 380)
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/bt...part22]The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation

CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

BobRyan · Apr 15, 2014

progmonk said:
Bob, the whole reason I deny your theonomic position from the basis of the Confession I confess is 21.1
This is the crux of the issue, obedience to the Law for you is at best theonomic and at worst salvific, for me it is at least theonomic but far more than that it points to Christ who is the hope of salvation, I have access to the throne of Grace through the indwelling spirit,

You can only go so far in agreeing with the view I state for myself while claiming to invent a new one for me to differ with.

For opposing my view - you have to "quote me" and then differ.

As I said in page 1 (see post #4 )- I never claim that the lost must obey the Law of God to become saved. Perfection/sinlessness is not the condition that stands in the way of the lost - for Christ stands in their place. Surrender is where they fail or stand - because they have been given free will and may choose to surrender to Christ - confess and repent or not.

progmonk said:
You don't have liberty of faith on this matter, y

The position that I state on post #4 - is fully in line with the published 28 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists regarding the fact that the lost do not earn their way into grace.

Your interest in "inventing my position for me" may be a debate tactic that has worked with others - but I prefer actual facts.

And in this case - the thread is asking if there is something amiss with the BCF in its Sabbatarian statements.

My point is that I agree with them in the aspect of the TEN Commandments up to the point where they wish to "bend" the 4th commandment after the cross.

Though I am happy they will at least admit to the six points I list - as noted here.

For the sake of "full disclosure" and context - I think we need to list all the details related to this subject from the BCF.

[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].

I don't claim to agree with all 7 of the points that the BCF is making - only 6 out of the 7 do I agree with.

But there are many on this board who are at war with all 7.[/FONT][/FONT]

in Christ,
Bob

BobRyan · Apr 15, 2014

Here is a great example of that 7 point list coming up in D.L.Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments -

============================

Case in point -- Here is what D.L. Moody actually said --

Here is an example of one of the "bend the commandment" but do not get rid of it - arguments.

=============================== D.L. Moody sermon on the TEN Commandments

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
HOW TO OBSERVE THE SABBATH[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy.[/FONT]

================== end quote

LarryP2 · Apr 15, 2014

BobRyan said:
Here is a great example of that 7 point list coming up in D.L.Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments -

Case in point -- Here is what D.L. Moody actually said --

Here is an example of one of the "bend the commandment" but do not get rid of it - arguments.

Actually, they said nothing of the kind about "bending the commandment." What they said was that Christianity's First Day commemoration of the Resurrection had completely replaced the 7th Day Jewish Sabbath. The Resurrection didn't "bend" the 4th Commandment, it eviscerated and gutted it.

Christianity commemorates the Resurrection on Sunday and on Easter. It has done so since the First year of Christianity.

Judaizing and Ebionite anti-Christian heretics insist on commemorating the Jewish 7th Day Sabbath. They still do. But that is NOT Christianity.

ALL of your sources merely endorse what Christianity has been teaching for 2,000 years. NONE of them support your focus on the Sabbath one tiny bit. They ALL reject the 7th Day Sabbath. For you to deceitfully claim that they support your Sabbath Spam arguments is incredibly dishonest and it willfully misrepresents their positions. I've no doubt they'd be horrified that their statements were being used to revive an anti-Christian heresy that Christianity condemned and defeated 2,000 years ago.

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been renouncing the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years.

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation

CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

BobRyan · Apr 15, 2014

BobRyan said:
Here is a great example of that 7 point list coming up in D.L.Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments -

============================

Case in point -- Here is what D.L. Moody actually said --

Here is an example of one of the "bend the commandment" but do not get rid of it - arguments.

=============================== D.L. Moody sermon on the TEN Commandments

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
HOW TO OBSERVE THE SABBATH[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy.[/FONT]

================== end quote

LarryP2 said:
Actually, they said nothing of the kind

In fact that is a direct quote above as Moody speaks of the 4th commandment - the Sabbath commandment being applied to week-day-1.

And Section 22 of the BCF does argue for the "CHANGE" of the Sabbath commandment.

The Resurrection didn't "bend" the 4th Commandment, it eviscerated and gutted it.

BCF -

BCF section 22 - points 7 and 8

As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.

The Sabbath is kept holy to the Lord by those who, after the necessary preparation of their hearts and prior arranging of their common affairs, observe all day a holy rest from their own works[FONT=&quot], [/FONT]

Hint: the language in D.L. Moody's text above specifically debunks your 4th-commandment-eviscerated idea he also calls it the 4th commandment, and calls it the Sabbath- as we can all see in that quote above.

And though the Jews in Mark 7 do not think they are "bending" or "breaking" one of the TEN Commandments by their man-made tradition Christ said that they in fact are doing that very thing with the 5th commandment and that they "do many such things" as that.

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ condemns the idea of bending/editing/side-stepping even one of the commandments and uses as His example - the 5th commandment. He condemns all religious tradition that would choose otherwise - in that chapter.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 15, 2014

So the points of agreement remain

For the sake of "full disclosure" and context - I think we need to list all the details related to this subject from the BCF.

[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].

I don't claim to agree with all 7 of the points that the BCF is making - only 6 out of the 7 do I agree with.

But there are many on this board who are at war with all 7.[/FONT][/FONT]

Keachian · Apr 15, 2014

Why be disingenuous with the 7 points if you disagree with the seventh point? You can continue to disagree with the 7th point if you recognise that the sources you present treat it as:

7. At the Cross of Christ and his Resurrection God changed the day of Sabbath observance from the Seventh Day to the First Day.

You can disagree with that while acknowledging that that is the position of the documents which you say support your theonomy. I don't believe that the Sabbath command is being bent to man-made-tradition and neither do any of the sources you cite, you are essentially straw-manning but its worse than that you are constructing a straw-man and in your construction of this straw-man you are setting it alight. The belief is that God has changed it, you can disagree but recognise that that is the belief.

LarryP2 · Apr 15, 2014

BobRyan said:
So the points of agreement remain

For the sake of "full disclosure" and context - I think we need to list all the details related to this subject from the BCF.

Instead of deceitfully using sources that vigorously-denounce your heretical views on the Sabbath, why not use your OWN totally-discredited Prophet to justify your position? Is she really THAT embarrassing? What does it say about a founding "Prophet" when the members of her own Church deceitfully refuse to disclose their REAL source? Since you completely lack the ability to disclose candidly where your aberrant and anti-Christian views on the Sabbath came from, I will do it for you:

"Jesus raised the cover of the ark, and I beheld the tables of stone on which the Ten Commandments were written. I was amazed as I saw the fourth commandment in the very center of the ten precepts with a soft halo of light encircling it. Said the angel, 'It is the only one of the ten which defines the living God who created the heavens and the earth and all things that are there[bless and do not curse]in."' ("Life Sketches of Ellen G. White,"Pages 95 and 96.)
......
"The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God's holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious a halo of glory was all around it." ("Early Writings of Ellen G. White," page 33.

On second thought, I can fully-sympathize with your obvious discomfort disclosing your inspiration from a prophet that is universally denounced as a pathological liar, an inveterate literally thief, and a false prophet. But still......

Yet it is CLEAR that her "vision" was not from God and that she lied, and your Church is founded on an easily-refuted doctrinal fraud since we have the words of Christ that directly contradict her statements:

Mark 12:28-35
New International Version (NIV)
The Greatest Commandment

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no commandment greater than these.”

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been renouncing the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years.

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation

CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

BobRyan · Apr 15, 2014

progmonk said:
Why be disengenuous with the 7 points if you disagree with the seventh point?

It is not disingenuous to admit to agreeing with 6 out of 7 rather than rant against 7 out of 7 as so many do here.

It is not disingenuous to fully engage on the one point of difference when the rate occassion arises that one on this board will venture to stand for all 7. So far all we have is the posts of those at war with all seven or hedging in their efforts to defend the 7.

You can continue to disagree with the 7th point if you recognise that the sources you present treat it as:

7. At the Cross of Christ and his Resurrection God changed the day of Sabbath observance from the Seventh Day to the First Day.

I keep arguing against their claim to do that - as being the part where I strongly oppose them.

But those who stand on the sinking-sand of opposing ALL SEVEN object to my statement in that they think there is no 4th commandment left to change because it is dead, abolished.

That is THEIR objection to the 7th point - mine is that it was a CHANGE - the other guys object because they say it does not exist to BE Changed.

This was established already in post 2.

This was the context, the easy part.

You are letting yourself get caught up in their factless ranting every time you try to defend the BCF by starting out with "But Ellen White..." -- that solution will never work as a defense of the BCF.

Don't be so easily manipulated by those who are at war with all TEN of God's Ten Commandments.

in Christ,

Bob

Keachian · Apr 15, 2014

It is completely disingenuous to represent your seventh point in the way that you have represented it because that is not what we believe. You are constructing a straw-man with a torch as one of your tools, we believe that it is God's change to the Sabbath command and though you disagree with it it does not call for you to misrepresent our belief when you set out to codify it in your "7 points"

BobRyan · Apr 15, 2014

BobRyan said:
Here is a great example of that 7 point list coming up in D.L.Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments -

============================

Case in point -- Here is what D.L. Moody actually said --

Here is an example of one of the "bend the commandment" but do not get rid of it - arguments.

=============================== D.L. Moody sermon on the TEN Commandments

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
HOW TO OBSERVE THE SABBATH[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy.[/FONT]

================== end quote

LarryP2 said:
Actually, they said nothing of the kind

In fact that is a direct quote above as Moody speaks of the 4th commandment - the Sabbath commandment being applied to week-day-1.

And Section 22 of the BCF does argue for the "CHANGE" of the Sabbath commandment.

The Resurrection didn't "bend" the 4th Commandment, it eviscerated and gutted it.

BCF -

BCF section 22 - points 7 and 8

As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.

The Sabbath is kept holy to the Lord by those who, after the necessary preparation of their hearts and prior arranging of their common affairs, observe all day a holy rest from their own works[FONT=&quot], [/FONT]

Hint: the language in D.L. Moody's text above specifically debunks your 4th-commandment-eviscerated idea he also calls it the 4th commandment, and calls it the Sabbath- as we can all see in that quote above.

BobRyan said:
So the points of agreement remain

For the sake of "full disclosure" and context - I think we need to list all the details related to this subject from the BCF.

[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].

I don't claim to agree with all 7 of the points that the BCF is making - only 6 out of the 7 do I agree with.

But there are many on this board who are at war with all 7.[/FONT][/FONT]

LarryP2 said:
Instead of deceitfully using sources that vigorously-denounce <obligatory off-topic rant deleted here>

Sadly for your nothing-but-rant solution - the non-SDA pro-Sunday sources themselves debunk your ideas warring against God's Ten Commandments and trying to down-size or delete them.

Why should I need anything else - your own pro-sunday people reject your failed argument against God's Ten Commandments.

They specifically appeal to the "Fourth Commandment" as "The Sabbath" - and then try to bend it to point to week-day-1 but only after the cross. Because they all admit that from Eden onward it was given to mankind as the 7th day of the week.

in Christ,

Bob

Keachian · Apr 15, 2014

But of course since your prophet acted in such ways why should we expect you a devotee to be any different.

BobRyan · Apr 15, 2014

progmonk said:
It is completely disingenuous to represent your seventh point in the way that you have represented it because that is not what we believe.

Your own BCF source admits that from Eden to the cross the 4th commandment, the Sabbath - was on the 7th day of the week. Even you can't deny this obvious point.

Your own BCF source admits that they "CHANGE" it from the cross onward so that the still-binding 4th commandment, the SABBATH is now applied to week-day-1 instead of the "Seventh Day" as stated in the actual commandment. Here again you cannot deny the point.

Thus if your "nit" is that you want the word "Change" and not "BEND" - be my guest.

we believe that it is God's change to the Sabbath command

Indeed you do.

And I call that a bending of the law of God in true Mark 7:6-13 fashion.

You can hardly ask for a more clean, clear direct opposition to a point.

Your own post has undercut every complaint the "all at war with God's TEN Commandments" group has had about the 7th point.

in Christ,

Bob

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