Rosary?

[chickenpower]

If we dont have to work to get to heaven, nor are we to do vain repetition:

why the rosary?

What is the difference between the Om concentration and chants on the cube or pyramid verses the concentration and 'Hail Mary' on an inanimate object of concentration.

Does it not become bondage when you feel bound to say a certain amount of 'Hail Marys or 'Our Fathers' or certain number of prayers in one day to feel right with God?

How is that of God if we are no longer bound by the law but set free?

 

[D'Ann]

If we dont have to work to get to heaven, nor are we to do vain repetition:

why the rosary?

The Rosary is praying. I can ask the same question about how you pray. Why should you pray at all since we don't have to work in order to get into heaven, nor should we do vain repetition of the same songs and prayers of any kind?

Praying is communication with God. It's not about "working" in order to get into heaven. It's about praying to God and for others. The Rosary is praying. No different than when another goes to church and praises the Lord with songs and hymns.

What is the difference between the Om concentration and chants on the cube or pyramid verses the concentration and 'Hail Mary' on an inanimate object of concentration.

Have you never quietly prayed to Jesus? Have you never kneeled at the altar and prayed silently to Jesus? I did before I was Catholic. There are many different ways to pray. One is kneeling and praying silently and meditating on the Word of God and on loving words that enhance the Word of God and that is how we pray the Rosary. The Rosary only confirms the Word of God. We are concentrating on Jesus and the intentions of our prayers. We pray for one another and that is the intention of our prayers.

Does it not become bondage when you feel bound to say a certain amount of 'Hail Marys or 'Our Fathers' or certain number of prayers in one day to feel right with God?

No one is bound or in bondage to pray any amount of the Rosary. We pray the Rosary because it is in our heart to communicate with God and to ask Mary to pray on our behalf as we would ask you to pray on our behalf. We don't pray the Rosary in order to "feel" right with God, we pray the Rosary to "communicate".

How is that of God if we are no longer bound by the law but set free?

Isn't prayer always something that we all should be doing as Christians. Communicating to God.

God bless,

Debbie

 

[PaulAckermann]

If we dont have to work to get to heaven, nor are we to do vain repetition:

why the rosary?

What is the difference between the Om concentration and chants on the cube or pyramid verses the concentration and 'Hail Mary' on an inanimate object of concentration.

Does it not become bondage when you feel bound to say a certain amount of 'Hail Marys or 'Our Fathers' or certain number of prayers in one day to feel right with God?

How is that of God if we are no longer bound by the law but set free?

Psalm 136

O give thanks to the LORD, for he is good,


for his steadfast love endures forever.

2 O give thanks to the God of gods,​

for his steadfast love endures forever.

3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords,

for his steadfast love endures forever; ​

4 who alone does great wonders,


for his steadfast love endures forever;

5 who by understanding made the heavens,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

6 who spread out the earth on the waters,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

7 who made the great lights,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

8 the sun to rule over the day,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

9 the moon and stars to rule over the night,

for his steadfast love endures forever; ​

10 who struck Egypt through their firstborn,


for his steadfast love endures forever;

11 and brought Israel out from among them,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

12 with a strong hand and an outstretched arm,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

13 who divided the Red Seaa in two,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

14 and made Israel pass through the midst of it,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

15 but overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea,b​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

16 who led his people through the wilderness,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

17 who struck down great kings,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

18 and killed famous kings,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

19 Sihon, king of the Amorites,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

20 and Og, king of Bashan,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

21 and gave their land as a heritage,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

22 a heritage to his servant Israel,

for his steadfast love endures forever. ​

23 It is he who remembered us in our low estate,


for his steadfast love endures forever;

24 and rescued us from our foes,​

for his steadfast love endures forever;

25 who gives food to all flesh,

for his steadfast love endures forever. ​

26 O give thanks to the God of heaven,

for his steadfast love endures forever.​

26 times this Psalm repeats the phrase "for his steadfast love endures forever". If Jesus condemned repetition, then the Bible itself is guilty of sin, since it records repetitive prayer, as in Psalms 136. If repetitive prayer is sinful, how can the divinely inspired Word of God give us models of such sinful prayer?


And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will."...Again He went away and prayed, saying the same words.
Mark 14:36...39

The gospel of Mark says that He repeated the same words, again! Jesus Himself did repetitive prayer. So if repetitive prayer is sinful, then Jesus committed sin when he prayed repetitive prayer.

Even the angels do repetitive prayer

And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."
Revelation 4:8


Here, John sees a visions of what heaven is like. He sees angels who repeat, the same thing over and over again, day and and night, saying "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME.". This is repetition.

So the Psalmist in the Old Testament, the angels, and even Jesus Himself have done repetitive prayers. Obviously repetitive prayer in itself cannot be sinful.

What is sinful is not repetitive prayers, but vain or empty repetitive prayers. It is praying to God while your heart is somewhere else. This is something that anyone can be guilty of, even a person who prays extemporaneously can be just going through the motions. This is what Jesus condemned.

Also, I noticed that when I was a Protestant, and even though I was only praying extemporaneous prayers, I noticed that all of my prayers start to sound alike after a while. I even used the same words over and over again, even though they were extemporaneous. I noticed that even my minister's prayers during church services all sounded the same as well. Think about it. Arent' the words you when you pray extemporaneously very similar to the words you used yesterday. So aren't your extemporaneous prayers nothing more than repetitive prayers? As it says in Ecclesiates there is nothing new under the sun. The prayers you say today were probably said by you yesterday. It is not that we have to be totally original whenever we pray. What God looks at is the heart.

Praying the Rosary is a great discipline. Sometimes when I pray extemporaneously, thoughts come into my head of something I need to do that day, and after a while I realize that I am not praying any more. Form prayers are great tools to keep you focused on God. Also, form prayer help me to concentrate on whom I am praying to to, God, instead of concentrating my efforts on what to pray for next.

Form prayers are not bondage any more than reading the Bible every day is bondage. Getting up everyday and jogging for a mile is is discipline to some, but bondage to others. A person who refrains from eating fatty food is being disciplined. But an obese person would consider this bondage. A person who lacks discipline in his life tends to think any kind of discipline as being bondage. One man's discipline in another man's bondage.

Our culture is a very undisciplined culture. It would not hurt to inject some discipline into our spiritual lives.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Of the top of my head, I think the pracitice of the rosary begin around 1000 A.D. roughly? If Christians were praying for over a thousand years already without the thing, then I can't see that it adds much benefit.

 

[PaulAckermann]

Of the top of my head, I think the pracitice of the rosary begin around 1000 A.D. roughly? If Christians were praying for over a thousand years already without the thing, then I can't see that it adds much benefit.

So does that mean that anything that is traced in the early years of Christianity DOES add much benefit?


The doctrine of the Eucharist being sacrificial can be found in the Didache, which is dated somewhere between AD 70 and AD 125. The belief of the the Eucharist being the real body and blood can be found in Ignatius of Antioch, at AD 110. Irenaus talked about apostolic sussession, and that the Roman bishop had primacy over the other bishop, in AD 180.

So if a doctrine or practice comes out later, you say we should not believe it nor practice it because it came out much later. But if a doctrine or practice came out in the early stages of Christianity, such as apostolic succession or the primacy of the pope, you still do not believe it or practice it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So does that mean that anything that is traced in the early years of Christianity DOES add much benefit?

The doctrine of the Eucharist being sacrificial can be found in the Didache, which is dated somewhere between AD 70 and AD 125. The belief of the the Eucharist being the real body and blood can be found in Ignatius of Antioch, at AD 110. Irenaus talked about apostolic sussession, and that the Roman bishop had primacy over the other bishop, in AD 180.

So if a doctrine or practice comes out later, you say we should not believe it nor practice it because it came out much later. But if a doctrine or practice came out in the early stages of Christianity, such as apostolic succession or the primacy of the pope, you still do not believe it or practice it.

Well, Paul, I respect what you are inferring, but it is a bit of a red-herring. My question still stands.

Yes, the Eucharist may be found in the Didache, but we have little evidence that anyone such as Peter or Paul, etc. taught this. Same with some of the other intentions of the Fathers. We should be cautious about doctrinal developments that have taken place after the apostles. I'm of course not saying that they are evil or corrupt, but that they may simply be extended interpretations which then were developed more by other successors. The trick here is in defining just who in the "early stages" of Christianity has authority to introduce anything inovative.

But what about something such as the rosary which really has no precedent before the end of the firest millenia. Pointing out your other examples does not really justify the inclusion of the rosary. It just seems a stretch that it took the Church a 1000 years to 'see' that the rosary should be a part of the Christian faith. (I am in no way inferring that Roman Catholic brethren are not Christians. I believe they are)

 

[ExodusGamer]

If we dont have to work to get to heaven, nor are we to do vain repetition:

why the rosary?

What is the difference between the Om concentration and chants on the cube or pyramid verses the concentration and 'Hail Mary' on an inanimate object of concentration.

Does it not become bondage when you feel bound to say a certain amount of 'Hail Marys or 'Our Fathers' or certain number of prayers in one day to feel right with God?

How is that of God if we are no longer bound by the law but set free?

so are you like.... a real chicken?

 

[revmalone]

If we dont have to work to get to heaven, nor are we to do vain repetition:

why the rosary?

What is the difference between the Om concentration and chants on the cube or pyramid verses the concentration and 'Hail Mary' on an inanimate object of concentration.

Does it not become bondage when you feel bound to say a certain amount of 'Hail Marys or 'Our Fathers' or certain number of prayers in one day to feel right with God?

How is that of God if we are no longer bound by the law but set free?

Greetings
Your raising a good question, somethings are religious traditions passed down, and Scripture teaches that vain reps are not how we come to God.

Know were in scripture are we told to use these man made traditional items or vain chants,are the way to reach heaven, The only way to reach heaven is thru Jesus Christ and by him only.

All access to God is by faith thru Jesus nothing else is accepted according to Scriptures, you'd really have to just about lie to say it does support this kind of teaching. Good question, and you answered it your self. Great job.

Peace to all in Jesus Christ
Rev Malone

 

[heron]

The way that Protestants approach these traditions... ideally... is to always refer back to the established word in the Bible, and loosen our dependence on traditions. I said ideally, in theory -- we have our own traditions too.

Humans make up a lot of practices that seem to work for them, and they impose them on others. It's just what we do -- in business, in faith, in education, in the household. Then we need prophets and rebels to shake these once-great ideas loose.

 

[PaulAckermann]

Same with some of the other intentions of the Fathers. We should be cautious about doctrinal developments that have taken place after the apostles.

We should be cautious that we carfully consider early doctrinal devlopments of the Early Church Fathers. The Didache was written at the same time the apostles were still alive. Since it is contemporary with the apostles, it reflect what the early church, headed by the apostles believed.

Ignatius of Antioch was a direct direct disciple of the Apostle John. Irenaus was a disciple of Polycarp, and Polycarp was a disciple of Paul, and Paul even mentions him in the Bible. Who better would know what the apostles actually taught than these men?

But what about something such as the rosary which really has no precedent before the end of the firest millenia. Pointing out your other examples does not really justify the inclusion of the rosary. It just seems a stretch that it took the Church a 1000 years to 'see' that the rosary should be a part of the Christian faith. (I am in no way inferring that Roman Catholic brethren are not Christians. I believe they are)

This is where you are presenting a red herring, because it really does not matter to you whether the practice started in 100 AD or 1000 AD. You do not believe in the Eucharist, even though you admit that was found in the Didache as the practice of the early church, and the Didache is date 70 AD to 150 AD. So even if the Rosary was dated as early as the Didache, it would not matter to you. So you are the one who is bringing up a red herring.

 

[PaulAckermann]

The way that Protestants approach these traditions... ideally... is to always refer back to the established word in the Bible, and loosen our dependence on traditions. I said ideally, in theory -- we have our own traditions too.

Humans make up a lot of practices that seem to work for them, and they impose them on others. It's just what we do -- in business, in faith, in education, in the household. Then we need prophets and rebels to shake these once-great ideas loose.

This is the first time I found a Protestant who admits that they themselves have their own traditions that are not found in the Bible.

 

[heron]

This is the first time I found a Protestant who admits that they themselves have their own found in the Bible.

Lol! That is because we are so right!

Here's one -- when Jesus and the NT writers speak of communion, it seems to be a meal that is shared, rather than a wafer and a sip.

The last supper was during Passover week (Lu 22:13, John 18:28 ) , so the bread would have been unleavened, but the disciples consumed the amount they would for the meal, and were sitting informally with Jesus and talking. They might have had other foods as well (although it wasn't the lamb and bitter herbs day yet). Jesus was showing how He ate with us, gave his life for us, and would always feel that way toward His people. They communed with Him.

1 Corinthians 11:17-22
Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk.



This really came to life once when I visited a Brazilian congregation -- while the service was closing, they started to pull out tables in the back of the sanctuary and spread food on it. It wasn't communion, but it felt as though this was closer to Jesus' intention for the Lord's supper than our quiet, fearful ritual.


Ex 12:11
Now you shall eat it in this manner: with your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in haste--it is the Lord's Passover.

Joh 19:14
Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold, your King!"

(On the day of preparation, the Passover lamb was sacrificed.)
1Co 5:7​

 

[FallingWaters]

If we dont have to work to get to heaven, nor are we to do vain repetition:

why the rosary?

What is the difference between the Om concentration and chants on the cube or pyramid verses the concentration and 'Hail Mary' on an inanimate object of concentration.
-You are supposed to be meditating upon the life, suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the LORD. When we pray to the LORD God Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth, we are praying to the only one true God.

Does it not become bondage when you feel bound to say a certain amount of 'Hail Marys or 'Our Fathers' or certain number of prayers in one day to feel right with God?
-Yes. A person doing this has the wrong motivations.

How is that of God if we are no longer bound by the law but set free?
-We are free to pray to God and to meditate upon all that He has done for us.

PS: I am not a Catholic, though I used to be, and I used to pray the rosary, and enjoy it.

 

[heron]

How is that of God if we are no longer bound by the law but set free?

That concept is believed to refer to the Law of Moses, which God handed down to His people. It is not disrespected and set aside, but covered by the blood of the Lamb, our once-for-all sacrifice.

Ro 8:2, 4
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Mt 5:17 (-Jesus)
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

​

In a sense, yes, we are free from legalism in general, because we have continual renewal and redemption through Him. But we still respect what the laws and rules are accomplishing.

Jesus challenged people to look at the heart of Moses' Law, rather than compete and trample each other with petty details.

About the specifics of the Rosary, I need to stay out of that end the discussion, because I have never been under that law.


​