Romans2 (and predestination)

Ben johnson said:

No, Woody.

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Then, you stand against the ENTIRE confessing church regarding this passage. You are 100% wrong regarding the middle voice assertion. No single major Bible translates it with the middle voice.

Ben johnson said:

Context alone, and the reality that "God causes no sin", make it clear that it was not God's fault they were "vessels prepared for destruction".

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Ben, you are guilty of reading YOUR OWN ideas into Scripture instead of letting Scripture tell you what to believe.

You are 100% wrong regarding the middle voice assertion. No single major Bible translates it with the middle voice.

Ben johnson said:

If you think I really did not visit him (and I have never questioned anything like that which you have said, have I?), and he graciously gave me several hours, then why don't you contact a Greek professor in YOUR region.

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I read and write Greek. I know what voice the participle is. I have furthermore consulted SEVERAL Greek scholars. I have consulted the translators of the KJV and many other major translations.

You are 100% wrong regarding the middle voice assertion. No credible scholar and no single major Bible translates it with the middle voice.

Your "scholar" is 100% wrong.

Ben johnson said:

I'm betting he will say the exact same thing as mine did.

He, or she.

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You would be wrong just exactly as you are wrong about the middle voice assertion regarding this passage. This isn't even hard, Ben.

Any two bit google hack can google the correct answer. Here is the KJ rendering via the blueletterbible.org. All anyone has to do is click the link to see that this is a passive voice.

There is not a single undisputed middle voice participle of this type anywhere in the NT. Not a single one. All we have are people who don't like what the Bible actually says and wish to rewrite it by forcing middle voices into passages where they don't belong. Those people are NOT scholars and you should not listen to them, Ben. They are deceiving the Church of Christ.

The correct parsing of it is that this is a Perfect, Passive, Participle in the Accusative case and Plural number, just as I said before. "They were fitted [by God] for destruction." This is what the passage says. After you quit rewriting the Greek to suit your own ideas, we can entertain a discussion of what that means.

IOW, you can't even get past what it says [translation] to even get to what it means [interpretation].


For those who can't read Greek, here is the crux: Ben argued, first of all, for the existence of a "middle-passive" voice. That voice does NOT EXIST. Ben is confusing the form of the participle with the function of it. You see, the middle and passive voices have the same form, but different functions. And, there is not a single major Bible that has rendered it in the middle voice. This is why every single major Bible that you pick up translates it in the passive voice, just as the link I gave above for the KJV.

What we have are individuals that don't like what the Bible says and wish to rewrite it so that it fits what they think it should say.

middle voice (which doesn't exist in the NT for a Perfect participle):
They fitted themselves for destruction.

passive voice (which comprises ALL of the Perfect participles in the middle & passive voice forms in the NT):
They were fitted by God for destruction.

And the latter is what the Bible actually says. One of the reasons that you don't have a Perfect middle participle of this type is that the Perfect tense represents an idea that is a combination of the present and aorist tenses. It communicates the idea that the action is completed and we are not concerned about when it happended (the aorist), but that there is a resulting and enduring state (the present idea).

Consider the Perfect tense for the verb nikao (I am conquering):

Present, active, indicative: I am conquering the world. (niko ton kosmon)

Aorist active indicative: I conquered the world. (enikesa ton kosmon - please excuse transliteration errors)

Perfect, active, indicative: I have conquered the world and it is now my conquest. (nenikeka ton kosmon)

The last is what the Lord himself actually says in John 16:33 The idea is that the action of the conquest is completed and the resulting state of that conquest, the subjection of the world to the Lord, endures. As a Partial-Preterist Amill, I kinda like that verse.

What Romans 9:22 says is settled for the entire church not wishing to rewrite Scriptures: They were fitted by God for destruction.
What that means is another matter, but there is NO CREDIBLE disputation about what it says. It shouldn't even be up for discussion.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

frumanchu said:

Explained five posts ago.

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If Ben will not listen to absolute undisputed proof about his incorrect assertions regarding the Greek for Romans 9:22 (click blueletterbible.org.), then are you surprised that he did not notice your responses to him?

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Do calvinists recognize the scriptural fact that ALL OF ADAM's race are vessels fit for destruction..?

Just curious... because when we realize that Romans 9 is speaking about election (elder serving the younger), we can then recognize that ALL in Adam are condemned (old man) and that ALL may be justified freely in Christ (new man)..

What think ye...?

"fitted for destruction" is about the ultimate destination, not the fallen condition.

Perhaps you're confused Rick.. because it's a scriptural fact that all in Adam are condemned.. ie, all in Adam are vessels fit for destruction..

Ephesians 2 makes this abundantly clear.. that in times past we too were vessels of wrath, even as others..

obviously not all are "fitted for destruction" in the ultimate sense that that phrase was offered. The ones placed "in Christ" suffer the fall, but escape the destruction.
No confusion.

Even after we're saved, the old man is to be put off, because he is corrupt according to deceitful lusts.. and that's why we put on the new man who is created (in us) in righteousness and true holiness.

These are basic bible principles.. the old nature is condemned.. the new man within is the heir.. the Spirit of promise within us.. just as the son of promise was the heir, and the son of the bondwoman was to be cast out.

Your old nature remains condemned.. and if you're in Christ.. then he (the old man) is crucified with Christ.. he is still a vessel fit for destruction..

It's a biblical fact..

A lot of confusion can arise from people attributing doctrines of election with those of salvation.. they're not the same thing..

Election is ALL in Adam condemned.. ALL in Adam justified freely in Christ.. who is the last Adam.

You think all in Adam were also in Christ.
That is why you don't realize election is about God's mercy on a remnant.

Rick Otto said:

obviously not all are "fitted for destruction" in the ultimate sense that that phrase was offered. The ones placed "in Christ" suffer the fall, but escape the destruction.
No confusion.

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If you think that you're not fit for destruction, then you're confused. It's a biblical fact.. the only thing that the Lord asks of you is to take up cross (an instrument of cruel punishment and death) and to follow Him..

You're not the heir, He is.. your old man is still corrupt.. and there's nothing good in him.. there's no reforming him.. he is positionally dead.

Rick Otto said:

You think all in Adam were also in Christ.
That is why you don't realize election is about God's mercy on a remnant.

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Well, if the remnant pertains to all of Adam.. then sure.. because Christ reconciled ALL things to Himself through the blood of His cross.. things on earth and things in heaven..

Again, the confusion arises when people start distorting doctrines of election with the doctrine of salvation.

John Calvin was a great Bible scholar.

“The reason for the predestination of some and reprobation of others (praedestinationis aliquorum, et reprobationis aliorum) must be sought for in the divine goodness.... God wills to manifest his goodness in those whom he predestines, by means of the mercy with which he spares them; and in respect of others whom he reprobates, by means of the justice with which he punishes them. This is the reason why God chooses some (quosdam eligit) and reprobates others (quosdam reprobat).... Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will (non habet rationem nisi divinam voluntatem).”

cygnusx1 said:

John Calvin was a great Bible scholar.

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Peter was an unlearned fisherman.. but he was with Christ.. and that alone makes all the difference in the world..

Calvinism plays to the intellect of man.. it's all so high minded.. and this is what happens when we start listening to men..

I'd take a few great brothers in Christ who are with the LORD daily over all the biblical scholars in the world put together..

Markea said:

Peter was an unlearned fisherman.. but he was with Christ.. and that alone makes all the difference in the world..

Calvinism plays to the intellect of man.. it's all so high minded.. and this is what happens when we start listening to men..

I'd take a few great brothers in Christ who are with the LORD daily over all the biblical scholars in the world put together..

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who said anything about Calvinism ????

That quote was from Thomas Aquinas

If you think that you're not fit for destruction, then you're confused.

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Condemned by sin, but not predestined to hell.
"Fitted for destruction" means predestined for hell, it wasn't used to described the fallen state of the

Well, if the remnant pertains to all of Adam.. then sure.. because Christ reconciled ALL things to Himself through the blood of His cross.. things on earth and things in heaven..

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Yet hell exits & people are in it. Maybe you've over broadened your definition of "reconcile".

Again, the confusion arises when people start distorting doctrines of election with the doctrine of salvation.

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Election unto salvation.
Election is about salvation.

cygnusx1 said:

who said anything about Calvinism ????

That quote was from Thomas Aquinas

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In case you missed his quote.. it stated that Calvin was a GREAT bible scholar..

So what..

Peter was an unlearned fisherman.. as were James and John.. perhaps the three closest men to the Lord Jesus Christ..

There's nothing wrong with being a scholar.. although there's nothing great about it either.. because one needs no worldly wisdom to be close to the Lord Jesus Christ.. they simply recognize His matchless love and grace..

Markea said:

In case you missed his quote.. it stated that Calvin was a GREAT bible scholar..

So what..

Peter was an unlearned fisherman.. as were James and John.. perhaps the three closest men to the Lord Jesus Christ..

There's nothing wrong with being a scholar.. although there's nothing great about it either.. because one needs no worldly wisdom to be close to the Lord Jesus Christ.. they simply recognize His matchless love and grace..

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I wasn't refering to your quote on Calvin , but your comments on "calvinism"


more from Aquinas ........

As God rules in the world, the "plan of the order of things" preexists in him; i.e., his providence and the exercise of it in his government are what condition as cause everything which comes to pass in the world. Hence follows predestination: from eternity some are destined to eternal life, while as concerns others "he permits some to fall short of that end." Reprobation, however, is more than mere foreknowledge; it is the "will of permitting anyone to fall into sin and incur the penalty of condemnation for sin." The effect of predestination is grace.

Rick Otto said:

Condemned by sin, but not predestined to hell.
"Fitted for destruction" means predestined for hell, it wasn't used to described the fallen state of the

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You can deny it til the cows come home Rick.. it's not going to change the truth.. ie, like this..

[bible]Ephesians 2:2-3[/bible]

All of Adam's fallen race are children of disobedience.. by NATURE we're children of wrath.. even as others.. this is so plain..

Yet hell exits & people are in it. Maybe you've over broadened your definition of "reconcile".

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Perhaps God did.. ALL THINGS.. things IN EARTH, and things IN HEAVEN... maybe you should argue with His words..

Election unto salvation.

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Election is about salvation.

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Says you..

Let me ask.. Did God allow you to believe that.. or did you come up with that on your own.. ?

cygnusx1 said:

I wasn't refering to your quote on Calvin , but your comments on "calvinism"

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I was referring to the quote about John Calvin being a GREAT bible scholar..

Markea said:

You can deny it til the cows come home Rick.. it's not going to change the truth.. ie, like this..

[bible]Ephesians 2:2-3[/bible]

All of Adam's fallen race are children of disobedience.. by NATURE we're children of wrath.. even as others.. this is so plain..



Perhaps God did.. ALL THINGS.. things IN EARTH, and things IN HEAVEN... maybe you should argue with His words..




Says you..

Let me ask.. Did God allow you to believe that.. or did you come up with that on your own.. ?

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It is true that all mankind in Adam are a fallen mass deserving of destruction ...... yet , Romans 9 , vessels /potter is dealing with what God (the potter) makes out of fallen mankind (clay) some vessels for mercy , others are made for (a purpose is useful) destruction in order to display both mercy and Justice.

Markea said:

I was referring to the quote about John Calvin being a GREAT bible scholar..

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and I was refering to ........... doesn't matter .