Romans 4:16 & 15:8-9?

[random person]

How do dispy's answer to these passages?

Romans 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 15:8-9

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister (some translations it is rendered "servant") of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

 

[Dispy]

How do dispy's answer to these passages?

Romans 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

This is something I posted some time ago on this subject.

>>>The "roots" of ALL believers go back to Abram/Abraham.Read Romans 4:12 - 13. "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, WHILE HE HAD BEING YET UNCIRCUMICSED. For the promise, that he should be heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or his seed, through the Law, but through the righteousness of FAITH.

Those verses just tell us that justification/salvation is apart from the Law, even while Abram was still a Gentile and before his name was changed to Abraham and he became a Jew in the flesh.

The covenant to Abram was when he was still a Gentile and was unconditional. After his name was changed to Abraham and required to become a "Jew in the flesh" by being circumcised, the unconditional promise to Abram wasn't changed, but new conditions were added to receive the promise. Any Jew that refused to be circumcised, was "cut off from his people; he hath broken the covenant" (Genesis 17:14).

After Abram's name was changed to Abraham, he is no longer referred to as Abram, even when they are talking about the times in which he lived before his name was changed.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh (when he was still called Abram and prior to his name change and his circumcision), hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Paul is speaking of the time in Genesis 15:5,6. Verse 2 identifies to who God is speaking is Abram. Abram was call a friend of the Lord and was declared righteous (justified/saved). Abram was justified/saved just as members of the Body of Christ are today. By FAITH ALONE and not by any deeds/works of the Law.

In contrast to this, James tells us in his Letter 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God

James is talking about the time in Genesis 22 when circumcised Abraham, a Jew in the flesh, at he was justified by doing a work to demonstrate his faith.

So the roots of ALL BELIEVERS go back to Abram/Abraham and are called the children of God. Those that are the seed of Abram are saved by FAITH ALONE, just as members of the Body of Christ are today, and those that were required to perform deed/works of the Law were saved/justified by doing the deed/works of the law BY FAITH. Salvation/justification has always been on the basis of FAITH. Now read Galations in that light. (cf in Heb. 11)

Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seed, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

God made many promises to the physical seed of Abraham, such as land, that his descendants would become a great nation, etc. Paul emphasizes the fact that the word "seed" is in the singular, and it is in reference to Christ. Christ is the pinnacle of the promises made to Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What promise do we have through Abraham's seed Jesus? SALVATION.

As a Gentile, I am a child of God, saved by GRACE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, in the Cross work of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4), and my roots go all the way back to Abram. All believers that were saved during the dispensation of the Law, are children of God, and saved by FAITH which was demonstrated by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Isn't Jesus the root in which the promise of salvation/justification is based for ALL mankind?

I, as a member of "the Body of Christ" am not a Jew or "spiritual" Jew. My salvation/justification comes from Christ through my FAITH ALONE in His Cross work, Just like Abram was saved/justified by just believing God.

All those that were saved/justified during the "dispensation of the Law" are saved by FAITH by demonstrating that faith by doing what the deed/works of the Law required.

The Cross work of Christ is the root of ALL those that believe.

Prior to the setting aside of Israel, and the formation of "the Body of Christ", There were different instructions addressed to Israel then to the Gentiles. If a Gentile wanted to serve the God of Israel, then the Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.<<<

Are the Instructions in righteousness to Israel, under the Laws of Moses, the same as the instructions of righteousness to the Body of Christ? I don't think so.

Rom. 15:8-9:"Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister (some translations it is rendered "servant") of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name."

As you no doubt know, Jesus said in Matt. 15:24 "...I am not come but unto to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Why did Jesus come only to the house of Israel? "...To confirm the promises made unto the fathers" (Rom. 15:8). Those promises included the establishment of an earthly kingdom (Jer. 23:5).

Also according to Isaiah 42:6 and 60:3. will be the light to the Gentiles.

You no doubt also know that Israel, as a nation, rejected their King and His kingdom, and that God gave them temporary slumbering eyes (set aside) (Rom. 11:7-12, 25). Therefore, the Gentile nations are not blessed (shown the light) today through Israel, but, in spite of their rejection, God raised up Saul/Paul to usher in this present dispensation of Grace.

Today, God is no respecter of Persons. God sees all mankind in the same manner (Rom. 10:;12, Gal. 3:28).

Hope this is what you were looking for, and I'm looking forward to your response.

 

[Danoh]

Agreed, Dispy, Romans 15:8-12 is to be understood in light of what Paul earlier asserts became of that in Romans 9-11, summarized by him in 11:25-29. It is in light of that that he begins 15:13 with the words "NOW the God of hope..." In light of Israel's continued disobedience to their calling "first" and thus, its being in no shape to take God's salvation to the Gentiles, Acts 13:44-52... note the similarity also, between Acts 13:52 and Rom. 15:13.

Of course, Randomperson will gainsay it all, perhaps even quote whatever Bible "translation" passage better appears to make his case, when ripped out of its' context.

 

[random person]

Oh this simple there is no exclusiveness, dividing Jew and Gentile just read Matt. 10:15, 11:20-24, Luke 10:11-15.

Luke 24:46-47

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, BEGINNING AT JERUSALEM.

Acts 17:29-31

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 26:20

BUT SHEWED FIRST UNTO THEM of Damascus, and AT JERUSALEM, and THROUGHOUT ALL THE COASTS OF JUDAEA, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.


The Gospel was preached throughout all the coasts of Israel (and all the land between these coasts). It is a pretty safe bet there isn't a single Jew in the whole world today that is ignorant of the Gospel and the name of Jesus. Jesus is calling all men, both Jew and Gentile, to repent and receive His remission from sins.

We are to look forward to that city whose maker and builder is God (both Jews and Gentiles). Because Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world. We are all strangers and pilgrims on the earth. Jerusalem above is the mother of us all, the Jerusalem below it is carnal and is in bondage still.

Your kingdom of God is carnal, my kingdom of God will be reclaimed by God and remade by God when we shall also receive our glorified bodies at His glorious return.

 

[Dispy]

First of all, You did not respond to what I had written. WHY?

Oh this simple there is no exclusiveness, dividing Jew and Gentile just read Matt. 10:15, 11:20-24, Luke 10:11-15.

Luke 24:46-47

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, BEGINNING AT JERUSALEM.

It was God who made the division between Jew and Gentiles. At the Tower of Babel, in Genesis 11, God set the Gentiles aside.

In Genesis 12 God raised of Abram (Abraham) to take unto Himself a people of His own (Israel).

After God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel, it was unlawful for a Jew to keep company with a Gentile. For one that was a Gentile, and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

The following is a posting by John M. Whalen some time ago that bares out what I just said.

>>>underline/bold is my emphasis:

"That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:7

"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." Ephesians 2:11-13

"...in time past..."

The LORD God will bless all on-Jews through the nation of His own creation Israel. Israel is created as God&#8217;s chosen people, His "elect" for service(holy/sanctify=to be set aside, separated, "severed" for God's use/purpose). God created the nation Israel to have a privileged status before Him as a "peculiar", "different", separated("holy"=sanctified) people:

"But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." Exodus 11:7

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: ..." Exodus 19:5

"For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth." Exodus 33:16

"But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people." Leviticus 20:24

"For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations." Numbers 23:9

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." Deuteronomy 7:6

"Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day." Deuteronomy 10:15

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth." Deuteronomy 14:2

"Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice: And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments; And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken." Deuteronomy 26:17-19

"And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods." 2 Samuel 7:23/2 Chronicles 17:21

"And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant." 2Kings 5:15

"For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure." Psalms 135:4

"He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD." Psalms 147:19,20

"You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." Amos 3:2

In time past, Gentiles are blessed through Israel's rise to kingdom glory(Isaiah 49:6, Luke 2:30-32) as "...the Priests of the LORD....", "...the Ministers of our God:..."(Isaiah 61:6), "...as His "... messenger..."(Isaiah 42:19), His "...servant..." He has "chosen..." as His "...elect...(Isaiah 41:8, 44:1, 45:4, 54:17, 65:9). Israel was to become the LORD God's witness to the unbelieving world of the promised seed , the Lord Jesus Christ(Galatians 3:16), that there is one true and living God(Isaiah 43:1, 10-12; Matthew 24:14; Luke 24:48; Acts 1:8; 10:41,43):

" But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine......Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God." " Isaiah 43:1, 10-12

And thus, Israel was to be the LORD God's vessel(Jeremiah chapter 18, 19:11; Isaiah 52:11) by which "all families of the earth(shall) be blessed"(Genesis 12:2,3) through the Lord Jesus Christ. Israel was to be the appointed channel and were to be delivered from the curse of the law in order that the blessing of Abraham might come through the Lord Jesus Christ:
References: Genesis 12:1-3, 22:16-18, 49:10; Exodus 19:5,6; Psalms 67:2, 96:3, 98:1-3; Isaiah 41:8, 42:6,7, 44:1, 49:6, 56:6-8, 60:3, 61:6-9; Jeremiah 33:9; 2 Chronicles 6:32; Zechariah 8:13-23; 1 Kings 8:41-43; Matthew 5:16, 28:18-19; Mark 16:15; Luke 2:30-32, 24:46,47; John 4:22; Acts 1:8, 3:25; Romans 3:1,2, 9:4, 15:8; Galatians 3:16

"But now..."

After Israel's(temporarily)"stumble, fall, diminishing, casting away, blindness, unbelief"(Romans 11:11, 12,15,25, 26), as documented historically in the book of Acts (which is a historical transition period explaining Israel's fall and subsequent removal temporarily as the "channel/"vessel"), the LORD God temporarily set aside the prophetic program, which dealt primarily with Israel alone, and raised up a new apostle, and yes, a new program, the mystery program, the dispensation of the grace of God, that was unforeseen in any of the prophetic books. And now,there is no more "....middle wall of partition..."(Ephesians 2:14). The LORD God is no longer distinguishing/discriminating/putting a "difference" or a "separation", between Jew and Gentile(Romans 10:12), and God "...hath concluded all under sin..." (Romans 11:32), and God "...hath concluded all under sin..."(Galatians 3:22), and is no longer during this "...dispensation of the grace of God..."(Eph. 3:2) bestowing blessings upon those that bless Israel, that honor Israel(per Genesis 12:2)

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Romans 10:12

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Colossians 3:11

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;..." Ephesians 2:14

"That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel." Ephesians 3:6(see also 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:12,13)

And thus, in Ephesians chapter 2 the Apostle Paul sets forth the basic three-fold division in God&#8217;s dealing with mankind:

Time Past (verses 11,12): Genesis through Acts(a transition period)
But Now (verse 13): Romans through Philemon
The Ages to Come (verse 7): Hebrews through Revelation

When the Holy Bible is &#8220;laid out&#8221; according to this divinely inspired design, we easily get an overview of not only that we are reading, but when and to whom it was written, and explains the seemingly "contradictory" passages in the Holy Bible, and removes the "fog" through understanding the divine, definite distinction/difference God made in "time past" (the prophetic program), as opposed to the divine no distinction/difference today in this dispensation's 'but now" (the mystery program).
For example:
1. The Lord Jesus Christ's seemingly puzzling statement:
".... for salvation is of the Jews." John 4:22
Not many would contend that our Lord is proposing that salvation is given through the Jews, in a literal sense. No, the Lord Jesus Christ, as "... aminister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:..."(Romans 15:8-the promises being the covenants/promises given only to Israel), was reaffirming Israel's honored, exalted status as the channel/vessel/vehicle by which the world would be blessed through her instrumentality as a nation of priests, ministers, witnesses....., and as the "blood line" by which the seed should come, i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ.

2. The Lord Jesus Christ's seemingly puzzling actions toward "...a woman of Canaan..." in Matthew chapter 15. He rebuked her, and "... answered her not a word..."(verse 23), and told her, in no uncertain terms, that "..I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (verse 24), and referred to her as a "dog" (verse 26-Gentiles were referred to as such by the Jews)="he wouldn't touch a Gentile with a 10 foot pole"!. He thus recognized the "difference" between the "chosen" people of Israel and Gentiles, as divinely ordered throughout the OT, and thus "the children's bread" (verse 26) refers back to the Abrahamic covenant provision of Genesis 12:3 ( and confirms Paul's point in Romans 15:8):

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Genesis 12:3

That is-THROUGH ISRAEL!
And notice that the Lord Jesus Christ only honored her request after she acknowledged and honored Israel's special, privileged status as the vessel, the channel:
"And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." Matthew 15:27,28

This "great faith" of which the Lord is pointing out is her faith in the Abrahamic covenant. She acknowledged her position as a "dog", and Israel's exalted status as the channel of blessing(a difference between Jew and Gentile), and thus, because she blessed Israel(" that bless thee"-Gen. 12:3), and the Lord Jesus Christ blessed her("I will bless them that bless thee"-Gen 12:3).

3. A similar situation to the preceding is given in Luke chapter 7. Notice the centurion is a Gentile. And why did the Lord Jesus Christ honor his request to heal his servant?:
"For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue." Luke 7:5

The centurion demonstrated his "...great faith..."(7:9) in believing the Abrahamic covenant, and recognizing the "difference":-he "blessed Israel" per Luke 7:5. And the Lord Jesus Christ blessed him accordingly. And on and on....

The word of God itself provides us with the key to its own proper understanding and right division:

time past: Eph. 2:11-12 sets forth the basic issue in time past- the division between the circumcision and the uncircumcision, between the nation of Israel and the Gentiles. When you find this issue governing the way God was working with mankind, you know you are in time past. This covers the &#8220;Old Testament&#8221; (see Gen. 17:9-14. Deut. 4:5-8, Num. 23:9), as well as Matthew through John (see Rom. 15:8, Matt. 105-6; 15:24; John 4:22 and the early Acts period;(see Luke 24:47, Acts 1:6-8; 2:14,22,36:5:32:11:19).

but now: Eph. 2:13 indicates that in the but now portion, Gentiles are no longer &#8220;far off&#8221; but rather the &#8220;middle wall of partition&#8221; between Israel and the Gentiles has been eliminated , and now &#8220;those who were far off are made nigh.&#8221; Romans through Philemon provide the doctrine for the "dispensation of the grace of God":Rom. 11:13; 15:16; 16:25, 1 Cor. 14:37, Eph. 3:1-9.

The ages to come: God will bring His purposes to fruition, and thus Eph. 2:7 points to the "ages to come." The books of Hebrews through Revelation focus on this aspect of God's revelation.

Again, The Holy Bible is "laid out" as to Eph 2:11, 12, 13 and verse 7, as follows:

Gen. through much of Acts is God dealing with Israel alone, i,e.: time past=prophecy
Romans through Philemon is God dealing with the Body of Christ, i.e.: but now=mystery
Hebrews through Revelation is God RESUMING His program with Israel, and the "difference" between Israel and Gentiles will once more be resumed, i.e.: ages to come(future)=prophecy again

Until you acknowledge how God shows you to correctly read, understand, and yes, acknowledge differences in the Holy Bible, through right division (2 Timothy 2:15), you will be mixing it and ashamed.<<<

 

[Danoh]

Most excellent post, Dispy!!!

 

[Dispy]

Most excellent post, Dispy!!!

Thank you. I wish I would be able to write as Mr. Whalen does.

Hope that random person and now see the difference between prophecy that pertains to the nation of Israel, and the mystery as it pertains to the Church, the Body of Christ.

 

[riverrat]

Thank you. I wish I would be able to write as Mr. Whalen does.

Hope that random person and now see the difference between prophecy that pertains to the nation of Israel, and the mystery as it pertains to the Church, the Body of Christ.

He is not here to see anything other than what he thinks he already sees.

 

[Danoh]

Come to think of it, Dispy, much of that Whalen article reads like Jordan's "Where We Fit In"

The Dispensator: WHERE WE FIT IN by Richard Jordan

Great article!

 

[random person]

No, the New Covenant eliminated the distinction between the Jews and God. Because Christ fulfilled the Law, if you don't see Christ in the whole Law then you are truly lost.

The Law is all about teaching us of the perfection of Christ and our schoolmaster on sin and righteousness.

Christ was a living embodiment of the Law. Christ never sacrificed a single animal for personal atonement. Because He is the atonement. Christ is the end of the Law.

The land of Canaan is nothing but a type for the Kingdom of God. Yet Abraham never saw it (promise of Canaan, neither did Isaac, neither did Jacob/Israel, neither did the twelve sons of Israel). Because what God really promised them was an inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

Read Deuteronomy 10:22, where 70 men, women, and children went down to Egypt. These 70 never saw the promised land while alive. They just sojourned through the land of Canaan as strangers and pilgrims.

Only in Christ will they ever receive the promised land. And that promised land is not a piece of real estate in the Middle East but the Kingdom of God.

 

[Dispy]

Come to think of it, Dispy, much of that Whalen article reads like Jordan's "Where We Fit In"

The Dispensator: WHERE WE FIT IN by Richard Jordan

Great article!

I agree. I have read many articles by Richard Jordan, and first met him when he became president of the Berean Bible Society. Also have attended a couple of his Bible conferences. I enjoy his teaching, however, I am not sold on his KJV only.

 

[Dispy]

He is not here to see anything other than what he thinks he already sees.

I agree. He has eyes, but cannot seel.

 

[Dispy]

BigD:
The New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-34, Heb. 8:7-13) is with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah. The Law was never given to the Gentiles.
----------------

random person:
Christ was a living embodiment of the Law. Christ never sacrificed a single animal for personal atonement. Because He is the atonement. Christ is the end of the Law.

BigD:
In Matt. 5:17 Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it. He fulfilled the Law by not violating any part of it. Yes, Jesus fulfilled the deeds/works of the Law for them.

Therefore the Old Covenant to Israel will be desolved because is was based upon doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH. The New Covenant is based upon their FAITH of the sacrifice of Jesus upon the Cross.
-------------
random person:
The land of Canaan is nothing but a type for the Kingdom of God. Yet Abraham never saw it (promise of Canaan, neither did Isaac, neither did Jacob/Israel, neither did the twelve sons of Israel). Because what God really promised them was an inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

Read Deuteronomy 10:22, where 70 men, women, and children went down to Egypt. These 70 never saw the promised land while alive. They just sojourned through the land of Canaan as strangers and pilgrims.

Only in Christ will they ever receive the promised land. And that promised land is not a piece of real estate in the Middle East but the Kingdom of God.

BigD:
The history of Israel does not end in Deuteronomy 10:22.

God's kingdom consists of everything above the earth, on the earth, and beneith the earth. Israel's future is earthly (cf. Jer. 23:5).

 

[random person]

BigD:
The New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-34, Heb. 8:7-13) is with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah. The Law was never given to the Gentiles.
----------------

random person:
Christ was a living embodiment of the Law. Christ never sacrificed a single animal for personal atonement. Because He is the atonement. Christ is the end of the Law.

BigD:
In Matt. 5:17 Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it. He fulfilled the Law by not violating any part of it. Yes, Jesus fulfilled the deeds/works of the Law for them.

Therefore the Old Covenant to Israel will be desolved because is was based upon doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH. The New Covenant is based upon their FAITH of the sacrifice of Jesus upon the Cross.
-------------
random person:
The land of Canaan is nothing but a type for the Kingdom of God. Yet Abraham never saw it (promise of Canaan, neither did Isaac, neither did Jacob/Israel, neither did the twelve sons of Israel). Because what God really promised them was an inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

Read Deuteronomy 10:22, where 70 men, women, and children went down to Egypt. These 70 never saw the promised land while alive. They just sojourned through the land of Canaan as strangers and pilgrims.

Only in Christ will they ever receive the promised land. And that promised land is not a piece of real estate in the Middle East but the Kingdom of God.

BigD:
The history of Israel does not end in Deuteronomy 10:22.

God's kingdom consists of everything above the earth, on the earth, and beneith the earth. Israel's future is earthly (cf. Jer. 23:5).

You believe God has two redemptive plans, one for spiritual Israel and one for natural Israel.

I believe God had only one redemptive plan for all of mankind including the Jews.

Read Hebrews 7:12,16, 18-19, 24, 28 & 8:13.

Your theology doesn't line up with the scripture and thus it is a different Gospel.

 

[Dispy]

BigD:
The New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-34, Heb. 8:7-13) is with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah. The Law was never given to the Gentiles.
----------------

random person:
Christ was a living embodiment of the Law. Christ never sacrificed a single animal for personal atonement. Because He is the atonement. Christ is the end of the Law.

BigD:
In Matt. 5:17 Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it. He fulfilled the Law by not violating any part of it. Yes, Jesus fulfilled the deeds/works of the Law for them.

Therefore the Old Covenant to Israel will be desolved because is was based upon doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH. The New Covenant is based upon their FAITH of the sacrifice of Jesus upon the Cross.
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random person:
The land of Canaan is nothing but a type for the Kingdom of God. Yet Abraham never saw it (promise of Canaan, neither did Isaac, neither did Jacob/Israel, neither did the twelve sons of Israel). Because what God really promised them was an inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

Read Deuteronomy 10:22, where 70 men, women, and children went down to Egypt. These 70 never saw the promised land while alive. They just sojourned through the land of Canaan as strangers and pilgrims.

Only in Christ will they ever receive the promised land. And that promised land is not a piece of real estate in the Middle East but the Kingdom of God.

BigD:
The history of Israel does not end in Deuteronomy 10:22.

God's kingdom consists of everything above the earth, on the earth, and benieth the earth. Israel's future is earthly (cf. Jer. 23:5).

You believe God has two redemptive plans, one for spiritual Israel and one for natural Israel.

Don't believe I said or implied that.

I believe God had only one redemptive plan for all of mankind including the Jews.

Read Hebrews 7:12,16, 18-19, 24, 28 & 8:13.

I agree with you. God's redemptive plan was the Cross, but kept it secret since the world began, UNTIL He revealed it to the Apostle Paul.

Since the fall of man, salvation/redemption has always been achieved through FAITH. FAITH demonstrated by believing/doing what God required at that time of human history.

BTW, the letter to the Hebrews is not written to Gentile members of the Church, the Body of Christ. It is written to Jewish members of the Church, the Body of Christ.

However, there are many things written in that letter that are applicable to all members of the Church, the Body of Christ.

Your theology doesn't line up with the scripture and thus it is a different Gospel.

IMHO, I believe you say that because you do not understand the Word rightly divided.

When, and ever, you believe that I am in error, PLEASE correct me from Scripture. I'm still in the learning mode.

 

[random person]

Don't believe I said or implied that.



I agree with you. God's redemptive plan was the Cross, but kept it secret since the world began, UNTIL He revealed it to the Apostle Paul.

Since the fall of man, salvation/redemption has always been achieved through FAITH. FAITH demonstrated by believing/doing what God required at that time of human history.

BTW, the letter to the Hebrews is not written to Gentile members of the Church, the Body of Christ. It is written to Jewish members of the Church, the Body of Christ.

However, there are many things written in that letter that are applicable to all members of the Church, the Body of Christ.



IMHO, I believe you say that because you do not understand the Word rightly divided.

When, and ever, you believe that I am in error, PLEASE correct me from Scripture. I'm still in the learning mode.

When you realize the ceremonial functions of the Law and land promises were all temporary, God is never going to use them ever I repeat EVER AGAIN.

The tabernacle was a type of God's heavenly throne.

Temple sacrifices were a type of Christ holy sacrifice.

Levitical priesthood was a type of Jesus' priestly office.

Land of Canaan was a type of the kingdom of God, a New Heavens, a New Earth, a New Jerusalem, promised to Abraham but never received.

And dispensationalism teaches two redemptive plans, one for spiritual Israel (which according to you is raptured off the earth) and natural Israel which remains on the earth to face the Tribulation (again according to your belief system).

If they were of the one and same redemptive plan they both spiritual Israel and natural Israel would be CAUGHT UP TO THE LORD.

The whole book of Hebrews smacks dispensationalism with an ugly stick and tosses it into the Devil's cellar like an unwanted red-headed stepchild.

 

[Dispy]

When you realize the ceremonial functions of the Law and land promises were all temporary, God is never going to use them ever I repeat EVER AGAIN.

The tabernacle was a type of God's heavenly throne.

Temple sacrifices were a type of Christ holy sacrifice.

Levitical priesthood was a type of Jesus' priestly office.

Land of Canaan was a type of the kingdom of God, a New Heavens, a New Earth, a New Jerusalem, promised to Abraham but never received.

And dispensationalism teaches two redemptive plans, one for spiritual Israel (which according to you is raptured off the earth) and natural Israel which remains on the earth to face the Tribulation (again according to your belief system).

If they were of the one and same redemptive plan they both spiritual Israel and natural Israel would be CAUGHT UP TO THE LORD.

The whole book of Hebrews smacks dispensationalism with an ugly stick and tosses it into the Devil's cellar like an unwanted red-headed stepchild.

All I see is your commentary. What scriptural proof do you have?

 

[random person]

All I see is your commentary. What scriptural proof do you have?

Study the book of Hebrews, I cited scriptural proofs previously. The best books on this subject are Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, & Hebrews.

Okay, here is a question, where lies the fullness of God's promise (in other words the fullest extent or completion)?

In the Law?

In circumcision?

Or in Christ?

 

[Dispy]

Study the book of Hebrews, I cited scriptural proofs previously. The best books on this subject are Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, & Hebrews.

Okay, here is a question, where lies the fullness of God's promise (in other words the fullest extent or completion)?

In the Law?

In circumcision?

Or in Christ?

I never saw you scriptural proofs. You still don't explain those scriptures to me. Prove to me what you say.

 

[random person]

I never saw you scriptural proofs. You still don't explain those scriptures to me. Prove to me what you say.

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.