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I think there are two issues here.
i) You said "I've been thinking of starting a thread on this Scripture passage; Romans 3:23 isn't a passage it's a verse, and is actually only part of a sentence. It needs to be read in the context of the passage and what has gone before.
In the first two chapters Paul has been talking about the wrath of God against mankind, God's righteous judgement and the Jews and the law. (I don't know about here, but certainly in OT times, Jews believed they would all be saved on the Day of the Lord simply because they WERE Jews; however they may have behaved, they were still chosen.) Paul then says that both Jews and Gentiles are under sin, Romans 3:9 . In Romans 3:21 he says that now a righteousness apart from the law has been made known - which comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the One bringing righteousness; Paul will later say that we are justified through him and reconciled to God through his blood. ALL in verse 23 means all of us; all humans. It clearly cannot include Christ, because Jesus was only able to die for our sins because he was sinless - the spotless Lamb of God, 1 Peter 1:19. He is the One who is bringing the righteousness.
ii) Was Mary sinless?
My answer is 'no', because only a sinless, spotless human being could take our sins upon themselves - had that been Mary, she could have died for us and in fact Jesus would not have needed to come at all. Also, if it is said that Jesus was only sinless because Mary was, where did Mary's sinlessness come from? Her mother?
Yes - because the context makes it clear that Christ cannot be included in that. He was the only perfect person who has ever lived. Even Noah and Job in the OT who were described as righteous, cannot have been perfect, or else they would have shown that it was possible to keep the law perfectly.
Interesting, in Romans 3:10 it says, "There is none that is righteous, no not one" yet, the Bible says lost of people were righteous. So, do you believe that "none", "no not one" is an absolute as you say "all" is in Romans 3:23?
At the disobedience, which is the point - all have sinned.
A discussion about the beginning of life, not accountability for sin, but in Adam all are under sin and death.
Born in Adam and under sin and death. The question is does God make provision for them if an early death.
Born in Adam and under sin and death. The question is does God make provision for them if an early death.
Born in Adam and under sin and death. The question is if God makes provision for them and are we capable of saying they are incapable of sin.
Adam and Eve sinned. So, they are included in the all.
As for Babies, although they are ignorant of sins they commit, and so innocent in that regard, they still sin from birth.
Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb;
These who speak lies go astray from birth.
I’m not comprehending why we don’t agree but every reply of yours makes me think we don’t agree. So I’ll leave it at that.We may be going in circles here but I will try to state the difference between sinlessness and innocence ,which is where the crux of the problem is.
"As adjectives the difference between innocent and sinless
is that innocent is free from guilt, sin, or immorality while sinless is without sin; never having sinned." God did not make Adam and Eve sinless. If that were the case He would have no need to give them a law.
The flesh is sinful. Only Jesus Christ of Nazareth was able to overcome the lust of the flesh, being tested by Satan himself , Christ overcame his temptations.
We are talking past each other and our discussion has been unsavory enough I do not wish to continue. I feel that you have tried to put me down and I expect that would continue with any reply of mine so I’m out.Please substantiate the claim with more than one Greek word.
Being "saved" does not make us automatically, experientially sinless.
Using Scripture outside of your favored Luke 1:28, please point us to one human being born in Adam, that is clearly said to be sinless. Using Scripture, please point us to one human being born again in the Second Adam who is clearly said to be experientially sinless.
God by fiat could also have taken a daughter of Adam, bound by the offense of Adam, and bring forth His Son from her by His Spirit. This is more in-line with His Text than the claim you are attempting to defend.
See Post # 103
Well Z, this is not a very strong argument for a few reasons. Number one reason being, nowhere does the Bible say that all we need to know for our Christian faith can be found within the pages of the Bible. Secondly, we know that Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the apostles preformed human duties then, as we do to this day. For example, washing our faces, combing our hair, and going to the bathroom which are not recorded in Scripture. And finally, even Scripture itself tells us this in John 21:25. "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."
Okay.... so you do believe 'all' in Romans 3:23 in an absolute.
The reason I asked Z if you were seeking God in your life, and you said ,"I seek God daily" is because in Romans 3:11 it says, "No one seeks for God." So you see Z, my reasoning is, that if "all" in verse 23 is an absolute, then "no one" in verse 11 has to also be an absolute, meaning no one seeks for God, right?
Have a Blessed day!
Why would we assume Mary was an exception?I have been contemplating starting a thread for a while now on this Scripture passage. Conversing with a couple other posters recently on a different thread about this very topic decided my reason for doing so. My reason being is, when it comes to the belief of Catholics like myself, and our belief and defense of the sinlessness of The Blessed Virgin Mary, most non- Catholics Protestants, post Romans 3:23 (Among a couple others) immediately saying "No, Mary was not sinless, for it says right here in Romans 3:23, (KJV version) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." When pressed on it, the result is pretty much unanimous among Sola Scripturist/Bible only believers. That being, yes...... when this passage says 'all' in Scripture, it absolutely means 'all' have sinned, yes 'all' is an absolute, without question, all means all!
So,,,, I am putting the question out there to my fellow Catholics and our Protestant, Bible only believing brethren ...... Is the word 'All" in Romans 3:23 an absolute, does 'ALL' absolutely mean "ALL"? I say no....... 'all' in Romans is not an absolute.
Looking forward to all (no pun intended he-he) responses.
Have a Blessed Day
Thanks for engaging!I’m not comprehending why we don’t agree but every reply of yours makes me think we don’t agree. So I’ll leave it at that.
We are talking past each other and our discussion has been unsavory enough I do not wish to continue. I feel that you have tried to put me down and I expect that would continue with any reply of mine so I’m out.
Well Z, this is not a very strong argument for a few reasons. Number one reason being, nowhere does the Bible say that all we need to know for our Christian faith can be found within the pages of the Bible.
And finally, even Scripture itself tells us this in John 21:25. "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."
Thanks for the additional and expected put down.Good enough. So you leave this without answering a few questions asked of you, and your feelings leading. Nothing I can do about that. Thanks for the effort.
I don’t recall saying that you worshipped Mary. Since she was blessed among woman and obviously very very special, I have no problem believing she is way ahead of me. However, that doesn’t mean that she never sinned.Every Catholic I know doesn't worship Mary either.
The Psalmist wrote " there IS no one who is righteous ", talking about people alive at the time.
He did not say "there has never been anyone who was righteous so don't believe the OT when it says otherwise".
Being righteous is not the same as being sinless.
If anyone had been able to keep the law perfectly, Jesus would not have come.
How do you know babies do not sin, when the Bible says they do?
How do you know the mentally handicapped do not sin?
What?? For believing people born severely mentally handicapped are unable to commit personal sin is being discriminatory? You may want to think that over again.That sounds discriminatory.
Are they not humans too, even though handicapped?
Thanks for responding, but what I asked was....... do you believe that "none", "no not one" in Romans 3:10 is an absolute as you say "all" in Romans 3:23 is an absolute? A yes or no would suffice.
I don’t recall saying that you worshipped Mary.
Since she was blessed among woman and obviously very very special, I have no problem believing she is way ahead of me.
However, that doesn’t mean that she never sinned.
Yes - apart from Jesus, which is made clear.
All have sinned and fall short of God's glory, Romans 3:23.
I have been contemplating starting a thread for a while now on this Scripture passage. Conversing with a couple other posters recently on a different thread about this very topic decided my reason for doing so. My reason being is, when it comes to the belief of Catholics like myself, and our belief and defense of the sinlessness of The Blessed Virgin Mary, most non- Catholics Protestants, post Romans 3:23 (Among a couple others) immediately saying "No, Mary was not sinless, for it says right here in Romans 3:23, (KJV version) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." When pressed on it, the result is pretty much unanimous among Sola Scripturist/Bible only believers. That being, yes...... when this passage says 'all' in Scripture, it absolutely means 'all' have sinned, yes 'all' is an absolute, without question, all means all!
So,,,, I am putting the question out there to my fellow Catholics and our Protestant, Bible only believing brethren ...... Is the word 'All" in Romans 3:23 an absolute, does 'ALL' absolutely mean "ALL"? I say no....... 'all' in Romans is not an absolute.
Looking forward to all (no pun intended he-he) responses.
Have a Blessed Day
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