Romans 3:23, is "All" an absolute?

HARK! · Apr 25, 2021

Fidelibus said:
I have been contemplating starting a thread for a while now on this Scripture passage. Conversing with a couple other posters recently on a different thread about this very topic decided my reason for doing so. My reason being is, when it comes to the belief of Catholics like myself, and our belief and defense of the sinlessness of The Blessed Virgin Mary, most non- Catholics Protestants, post Romans 3:23 (Among a couple others) immediately saying "No, Mary was not sinless, for it says right here in Romans 3:23, (KJV version) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." When pressed on it, the result is pretty much unanimous among Sola Scripturist/Bible only believers. That being, yes...... when this passage says 'all' in Scripture, it absolutely means 'all' have sinned, yes 'all' is an absolute, without question, all means all!

So,,,, I am putting the question out there to my fellow Catholics and our Protestant, Bible only believing brethren ...... Is the word 'All" in Romans 3:23 an absolute, does 'ALL' absolutely mean "ALL"? I say no....... 'all' in Romans is not an absolute.
Looking forward to all (no pun intended he-he) responses.

Have a Blessed Day

Let's back up a few verse for greater context.

(CLV) Ro 3:13
"A sepulcher opened is their throat. With their tongues they defraud." "The venom of asps is under their lips."

Was Paul including himself in this statement?

Paul said this of himself:

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.

A few verses down we see this:

(CLV) Ro 3:15
Sharp are their feet to shed blood.

Does this mean that every newborn baby, emerges from the womb looking for an uzi?

bbbbbbb · Apr 25, 2021

It seems more than peculiar to me that God, in His majestic forgetfulness, permitted the book of the Psalms to contain two psalms which are virtually identical to each other, e.g. #14 and #53, and which Paul quoted at length in Romans 3 to make the point - ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

zoidar · Apr 26, 2021

GDL said:
The exegetical article I linked that was supplied in post #84 says "all" in 3:23 is grammatically connected to "all who believe" in 3:22. The author makes the case that if this connection is not maintained, grammatically "all" also connects to "being justified" thereby stating universal justification. So, if we're gong to use 3:23 for universal sin, then we also have to include universal justification.

The author's point was not that universal sin cannot be determined from elsewhere in the Text, but it's best to be clear with 3:23. Paul's main case here is there being no distinction between Jew and Greek - 3:22 - which is a big topic in Romans.

It would also seem that since all those who believed had sinned and were justified in Christ, that this Scripture certainly cannot be saying those who had not believed had not sinned.

Pretty technical, but it's best to be precise.

Hi GDL,

I got the reply now from the Greek professor. He said that "all" in Romans 3:23 refers to Jews and the nations. Romans chap 1 is about the sin of nations, chap 2 about the sin of the Jews and chap 3 the conclusion, the sin of all, the Jews and the nations.

God bless!

GDL · Apr 26, 2021

zoidar said:
Hi GDL,

I got the reply now from the Greek professor. He said that "all" in Romans 3:23 refers to Jews and the nations. Romans chap 1 is about the sin of nations, chap 2 about the sin of the Jews and chap 3 the conclusion, the sin of all, the Jews and the nations.

God bless!

Thank you! It's good to hear he is still so responsive, as he has been to me.

This is pretty much how I understand him, now a bit more precisely.

Although not specifically addressing universal sin, there remains the implication that all Jews and all non-Jews in Adam sin and need a Savior. Jesus - the Savior - is excluded via the virgin birth and perfect obedience to God. Mary is not excluded and knew she needed the Savior.

So, does "all" in 1 Corinthians 15:22 mean "all"?

GDL · Apr 26, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
It seems more than peculiar to me that God, in His majestic forgetfulness, permitted the book of the Psalms to contain two psalms which are virtually identical to each other, e.g. #14 and #53, and which Paul quoted at length in Romans 3 to make the point - ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

I agree with you.

I also think some of the difficulty in this becomes the technicality of what Paul is addressing in Romans 3, which seems to be, specifically, the non-distinction between Jew and gentile. But all Jew and all gentile implies all people, no matter their race, as all races are in Adam. But God sets some apart from faith.

Even Psalm 14 and Psalm 53 differentiate between God's people and those not His people. But, there is no reality or implication that His people are free from sin, and are therefore excluded from the negative descriptions of mankind. So, all have sinned, but God sets some apart from faith.

This is similar to Genesis 6 where God says all flesh was corrupted and then sets aside Noah, his family, and some from the creatures. It doesn't say Noah and his family was sinless. But God sets some apart from faith.

zoidar · Apr 26, 2021

GDL said:
Thank you! It's good to hear he is still so responsive, as he has been to me.

This is pretty much how I understand him, now a bit more precisely.

Although not specifically addressing universal sin, there remains the implication that all Jews and all non-Jews in Adam sin and need a Savior. Jesus - the Savior - is excluded via the virgin birth and perfect obedience to God. Mary is not excluded and knew she needed the Savior.

So, does "all" in 1 Corinthians 15:22 mean "all"?

It's the situation of man that is described. He is not specific. How do we know if infants are included here or not? Maybe he is refering those old enough to be able to sin? Can we know? At least everyone except Jesus inherit sinful nature. Would find it hard to believe Mary was excluded. It's a good point you are making, the reason Jesus escaped the inherited sin is because of the virgin birth, because he is God.

Romans 3:23, is "All" an absolute?

HARK!

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Romans 3:23, is "All" an absolute?

HARK!

שמע

bbbbbbb

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zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

GDL

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GDL

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zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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