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But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
AT
You are contradicting and pulling down Pauls remarks here. You are teaching that a man is savedin the spirit by faith, but kept by works.
[FONT='Times New Roman', 'Times', serif]1[/font] O thoughtless Galatians, who did bewitch you, not to obey the truth--before whose eyes Jesus Christ was described before among you crucified? [FONT='Times New Roman', 'Times', serif]2[/font] this only do I wish to learn from you--by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith?
3 so thoughtless are ye! having begun in the Spirit, now in the flesh do ye end?
4 so many things did ye suffer in vain! if, indeed, even in vain.
5 He, therefore, who is supplying to you the Spirit, and working mighty acts among you--by works of law or by the hearing of faith is it?
Gal 3:1-5 (YLT)
Pauls argument is that you can't be justified and then try to continue to be justified through works. You also have a flawed understanding of the James text. In context James is only pointing out that the works prove the genuines of your faith. Works testify of your faith in the Lord.
You are contradicting and pulling down Pauls remarks here. You are teaching that a man is savedin the spirit by faith, but kept by works.
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
But becasue they where unrepentant, Paul was forced to tell them they where in danger of a judgment by works that only leads to wrath and damnation. This is the rightous judgment of God.
Do you agree?
AT
Bob said
FUTURE Justification
"example"Bob
"It is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED"
Notice that the past justification is "By faith alone"
Notice that future justification is based on evaluation of the fruit IN the life -- what the person DOES reveals what the "tree that is" or as Paul says in Romans 2:7 "PERSEVERING in doing GOOD"
BOTH deal with Gospel "Justification"
in Christ,
AT
This is where you need to understand this chapter . Paul is making remarks based upon the actions of the Jews who where judgmental. In a nut shell he was giving them judgment by works. Besides who is it that does good?
If you like you and I can go through Romans chapter 2 together line by line...are you game?
Here he tells them that God gives to every person who is without repentence, who neglect the goodness of God that leads to repentance, and passing judgment on others for their wrong doing, while doing the samethings, God will judge them according totheir performance and not according to grace and mercy inChirst.
Do you agree?
I'll wait for your answers, but I hope you see where Paul is going with this. If not, kindly go back over what Ihave written, and get your self a good bible and go over it slowly.
AT
Becuase as stated - entrance into heaven is based on your being "Saved" which means - a "new creation" - and this is what Christ in Matt 7 calls "A good tree" that produces "good fruit".
I just conclude that "the DOERS of the LAW WILL BE JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:13 is in fact a "true" statement.
Going from there - I see then that we have TWO contexts for justification. In the first one the person CHANGES from a bad tree to a good tree.
In the second justification they are SEEN to be either a bad tree or a good tree (no CHANGE is involved).
How so? By simply quoting Rom 2:13??
Hint. In Gal 3 Paul is not dealing with "peseverance in doing good" in Rom 2:7 he is.
In Gal 3 the problem is that the problem has to do with rejecting faith and embracing "Form" over "substance".
There is nothing wrong with "honoring your parents" in fact in Eph 6:2 we are reminded that the Ten Commandments "demands it" -- but if this is what you have "instead of faith" then you still have nothing. That is the argument of Gal 3.
The argument of Romans 2:7 and 13 are discussing rebellion vs obedience where obedience in the Romans 2 context is always "good" because it is always the gospel context of "perseverance of the saints" seen in vs 7.
No point in mixing Rom 2:7 with Gal 3 because in Romans 2 Paul clearly argues in FAVOR of the good scenarios and against the bad ones.
Care to comment on Paul's statements in Romans that "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified" and "a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law?
Since you've highlighted the phrase "doers of the law will be justified," would you care to explain how it is that you believe a man can become a doer of the law? Is there only One who is good or many who are good? Is human righteousness something more than filthy rags? Is the whole world a prisoner of sin, or just some of it? According to Romans, how many have sinned?
I note that you did not answer my question. My question was this:
Q: How does it benefit a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?Further, I note that you define salvation as "a new creation." Please provide the Biblical basis for this definition.
As do I. Now, I have a couple of questions:
Q: How is it that a man becomes a "doer of the law?"Which is called sanctification, not justification. Scripture is clear that both sanctification and justification result from divine intervention and not from human effort.
Q: Does a "doer of the law" suggest a person who has reached a state of sinless perfection prior to the close of probation?
Which is called justification (i.e. being declared rightoues because of God's rightousness).
So it appears that you have folded sanctification and justification into one term as though they are completely synonymous.
BFA
Care to comment on Paul's statements in Romans that "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified" and "a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law?
Since you've highlighted the phrase "doers of the law will be justified,"
would you care to explain how it is that you believe a man can become a doer of the law?
Is there only One who is good or many who are good?
BFA
Is human righteousness something more than filthy rags? Is the whole world a prisoner of sin, or just some of it? According to Romans, how many have sinned?
BFA stated
One might ask how it benefits a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?
Bob said
Because as stated - entrance into heaven is based on your being "Saved" which means - a "new creation" - and this is what Christ in Matt 7 calls "A good tree" that produces "good fruit".
LOOKING at the tree (i.e. the 2nd Justification)- does not change it.
Why is this such a challenging idea?
BFA resonds
I note that you did not answer my question.
My question was this:
Q: How does it benefit a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?
BFA
Further, I note that you define salvation as "a new creation." Please provide the Biblical basis for this definition.
As do I. Now, I have a couple of questions:
Q1: How is it that a man becomes a "doer of the law?"
Q2: Does a "doer of the law" suggest a person who has reached a state of sinless perfection prior to the close of probation?
Which is called sanctification, not justification. Scripture is clear that both sanctification and justification result from divine intervention and not from human effort.
BFA
So it appears that you have folded sanctification and justification into one term as though they are completely synonymous.
You are contradicting and pulling down Pauls remarks here. You are teaching that a man is savedin the spirit by faith, but kept by works.
Bob asks
How so? By simply quoting Rom 2:13??
Hint. In Gal 3 Paul is not dealing with "peseverance in doing good" in Rom 2:7 he is. In Gal 3 the problem is that the problem has to do with rejecting faith and embracing "Form" over "substance". There is nothing wrong with "honoring your parents" in fact in Eph 6:2 we are reminded that the Ten Commandments "demands it" -- but if this is what you have "instead of faith" then you still have nothing. That is the argument of Gal 3.
The argument of Romans 2:7 and 13 are discussing rebellion vs obedience where obedience in the Romans 2 context is always "good" because it is always the gospel context of "perseverance of the saints" seen in vs 7.
No point in mixing Rom 2:7 with Gal 3 because in Romans 2 Paul clearly argues in FAVOR of the good scenarios and against the bad ones.
AT
Makes no difference. Justification is justification.
Bob
In Gal 3 the problem has to do with rejecting faith and embracing "Form" over "substance".AT
And to reject faith is to not be justified. Agreed?
err... umm "yes".. I thought we were good on that point.
Bob said
There is nothing wrong with "honoring your parents" in fact in Eph 6:2 we are reminded that the Ten Commandments "demands it" -- but if this is what you have "instead of faith" then you still have nothing. That is the argument of Gal 3.
AT
Yes...because to rely on law is to reject faith in what Christ has accomplished and done for you. A persons works never justify in the sence that it saves you.
ahh so we ARE good on that point!
Recall that I said at the start that only "Justification PAST changes salvation status"
Works or performance may justify your faith as genuine faith before others, but never God.
Hmmm the text about "justifying your faith before God" -- I guess I missed that one. Please quote it.
The closest I see is when God himself says "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord..." Matt 7
Is this where you paraphrase to mean "claims to have faith"?? If so.. then ok - I agree!
Once again - we may be good on this point as well.
AT
That is how James is using the term .Your term "future justification" is but a present day reality.
Paul places FUTURE justification as a reality at that FUTURE judgment when HE says "WILL be justified... on the DAY WHEN God WILL JUDGE".
Impossible to miss that one in Romans 2.
Bob
The argument of Romans 2:7 and 13 are discussing rebellion vs obedience where obedience in the Romans 2 context is always "good" because it is always the gospel context of "perseverance of the saints" seen in vs 7.
And of course we know that because we SEE in vs 7 the RESULT of that "perseverance in doing GOOD" is as Paul states "eternal life"
It is right there in vs 7 -- all we have to do is read it and not ignore the inconvenient details in the text.
False...not so!
Really? How so?
Why not go ahead and exegete Rom 2:7-8 to show how Paul is really saying "To those who Persevere in doing good -- the lake of fire -- and to those who choose to do evil -- also the lake of fire"
Because I have to say that from the actual reading of the text -- it is just not there.
Also note that in Romans 2 succeeding cases come from BOTH Jews AND Gentiles "to the Jew first and THEN to the Gentile"
And in Romans 2 failing cases also come from BOTH groups not "just from Jews" as we notice again those inconvenient details in Rom 2:7-13.
Romans 2 is addressing the hypocracy of the Jew.(Roman 2:1) They had an unfavorable and adverse judgement on the gentile while they themselves where doing the same sins as the gentiles.(3) The Jew thought that because they where Gods special people above those of the earth, they thought they where above all others in this regard and had special favor of God. They wherer taking Gods goodness in light regard.(4)
I agree that SOME of th failing cases listed there included Jews doing that very thing -- the failing cases for the Gentiles AND the succeeding cases for both JEW AND Gentiles of course had nothing to do with those failures at all.
Again -- no way to delete the other 3 case types from the chapter. You seem to get one of the 4 and then seek to find a way to ignore the other 3.
Why go to such trouble?
AT
If and only if they could live a life of perfection in works, performance, and law, then they are infact seeking a life of eternal life. But if not eternal damnation.(7-10) And so that is why Paul said that the doers of the law are justified before God...only if they can do it perfectly in a judgement of works through law. This is called the righteous judgement of God.(5)
Ahhh yes with the idea being that in vs 2:7 Paul SHOULD have said "to the ones who persevere in doing good -- the lake of fire and ot the ones who did evil - the lake of fire"
But instead of that we get repetition in Romans 2 of success after success not just for Gentiles but also for Jews AND in the case of those success Paul argues that the result is "eternal life".
in Christ,
Bob
Sometimes it is claimed that in Romans 2 -- you only find examples of failing outside of the Gospel.
My argument is that you find failing outside the gospel in Romans 2 AND you find "perseverance of the saints" examples of succeeding within the Gospel in that chapter.
Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the Kindness of God leads you to repentance
5 But because of your stubbornness and
unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life ;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil , of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. [/b]
Luke 6
27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
33. "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
In Romans 3 - ( A place I think you would prefer that we stay with and avoid Romans 2 and 8 and 6 and 11 and ...) we have the case of the LOST and the case of the sinful nature. There it the case is made that no human will ever match the perfect standard of the Law of God. ALL are condemned as sinners as we view the case of the LOST WORLD. And Paul argues in Romans 3 that this is the whole reason we NEED a GOSPEL solution that not ONLY forgives but that also TRANSFORMS so that we do not "ABOLISH the Law by our faith -- oh no! God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.
It isn't an issue of being unclear, it's an issue of being responsive. If our ultimate salvation hinges upon our works, then it doesn't really matter what our current salvation hinges on. If our ultimate salvation hinges upon our works, then we cannot possibly have the assurance of salvation that we have been promised and all of the promises of salvation by grace through faith mean nothing.True that was your question - what part of that answer above was unclear?
There is no question that the Spirit brings forth good fruit in justified persons. The question is whether man does anything--either today or at some point in the future--to earn or merit his justification or his salvation? Your responses seem to indicate that man will one day need to earn the right to maintain his status as a justified person. Correct?Hence Christ can not address the issue of the GOOD trees -- that produce GOOD fruit in Matt 7 as he say "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven"
What previous answer? How does a man become a doer of the law? Is man capable of goodness?See the previous answer to Q1.
Per my separate post in this same thread, your denomination seems to place a high premium on man's need and ability to stop sinning.Q2 - I see nothing in Rom 2:13 that suggest that all the "doers have stopped sinning".
Because of the Spirit who sanctifies them.Call it what you will - in Romans 2:7 Paul refers to it as the Perseverance of the saints who "Persevere in doing good".
Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Romans 3 - ( A place I think you would prefer that we stay with and avoid Romans 2 and 8 and 6 and 11 and ...) we have the case of the LOST and the case of the sinful nature. There it the case is made that no human will ever match the perfect standard of the Law of God. ALL are condemned as sinners as we view the case of the LOST WORLD. And Paul argues in Romans 3 that this is the whole reason we NEED a GOSPEL solution that not ONLY forgives but that also TRANSFORMS so that we do not "ABOLISH the Law by our faith -- oh no! God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.
OK. Assuming that you have accurately captured the spirit of Romans 3, let's compare and contrast your understanding with that of your denomination:
Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified. (Manuscript Releases, vol. 8, pp. 98-99)
"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214).
BFA stated
One might ask how it benefits a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?
Bob said
Because as stated - entrance into heaven is based on your being "Saved" which means - a "new creation" - and this is what Christ in Matt 7 calls "A good tree" that produces "good fruit".
LOOKING at the tree (i.e. the 2nd Justification)- does not change it.
Why is this such a challenging idea?
BFA resonds
I note that you did not answer my question.
Bob
How so?
BFA
My question was this:
Q: How does it benefit a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?
Bob said
True that was your question - what part of that answer above was unclear?
BFA
It isn't an issue of being unclear, it's an issue of being responsive. If our ultimate salvation hinges upon our works, then it doesn't really matter what our current salvation hinges on.
If our ultimate salvation hinges upon our works, then we cannot possibly have the assurance of salvation that we have been promised and all of the promises of salvation by grace through faith mean nothing.
How can salvation 'hinge" on "looking to see if you are a good tree" AS IF a good tree "turns into a bad one" if you look at it??
If the "looking" is not changing your salvation state then how is your salvation status "hinging" on that "looking"???
It is like saying "my cancer hinges on the Doctor's exam next week" AS if the exam will either give me cancer or the exam will "take away cancer".
Put another way "my health hinges on the doctor's exam" - if he pronounces me healthy -- THEN I am healthy
If your salvation hinged on the future Justification such that a lost person could come to that point and turn into a saved person by a demonstration of works -- then you would be right.
If a saved person (a good tree) could be presented at the future justification event and then by that event be transformed into a "bad tree" then again - I think you would have a point.
IF this was a discussion of how this compares to OSAS -- then I would agree that this model is not consistent with OSAS. It is Arminian
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