Romans 1:16

[random person]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; TO THE JEW FIRST, and also to the Greek.

How do dispensationalists answer to this piece of scripture?
With their "church age" doctrine?

Even though the covenant of Christ is everlasting and He is to be gloried in the church throughout ALL AGES. Hebrews 13:20 & Ephesians 3:21.

How could Christ be gloried throughout all ages if the Church and the Holy Spirit is to be raptured out of the Earth?

 

[Biblewriter]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; TO THE JEW FIRST, and also to the Greek.

How do dispensationalists answer to this piece of scripture?
With their "church age" doctrine?

I find it amazing that you would even imagine that this even presents a problem. The gospel is certainly to the Jew first, but that has zero bearing on dispensationalism. A Jew that accepts Jesus as savior becomes part of the church..

Even though the covenant of Christ is everlasting and He is to be gloried in the church throughout ALL AGES. Hebrews 13:20 & Ephesians 3:21.

How could Christ be gloried throughout all ages if the Church and the Holy Spirit is to be raptured out of the Earth?

You are assuming, wtihout a scrap of scriptural evidence, that Glory in the church means glory on earth. But this assumption does not only lack even a scrap of scriptural evidence, it is directly contradicted by numerous scriptures.


First, we notice the words, "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." (Romans 8:18) This scripture clearly speaks of a glory that is yo come after this present time. We see this again in the words, "our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" (2 Corinthians 4:17)

But the scriptures not only tell us this glory will be in a future time, the following passage explicitly tells us that it will be in the resurrection, and that this will be celestial, as opposed to terrestial. That is, that it will be in heaven, not on the earth.


35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain--perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1 Corinthians 15:35-54

 

[random person]

I find it amazing that you would even imagine that this even presents a problem. The gospel is certainly to the Jew first, but that has zero bearing on dispensationalism. A Jew that accepts Jesus as savior becomes part of the church..

You are assuming, wtihout a scrap of scriptural evidence, that Glory in the church means glory on earth. But this assumption does not only pack even a scrap of scriptural evidence, it is directly contradicted by numerous scriptures.


First, we notice the words, "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." (Romans 8:18) This scripture clearly speaks of a glory that is yo come after this present time. We see this again in the words, "our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" (2 Corinthians 4:17)

But the scriptures not only tell us this glory will be in a future time, the following passage explicitly tells us that it will be in the resurrection, and that this will be celestial, as opposed to terrestial. That is, that it will be in heaven, not on the earth.


35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain--perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1 Corinthians 15:35-54

No, it says ALL AGES, if there is a "church age" then that means there is a ceasing of an age. That it is temporal. But that verse explicitly states ALL AGES. In other words there is no ceasing throughout all ages. And yes, the kingdom of God is eternal.

ALL AGES (here to the end and beyond e.g. the church is never going to be removed) > church age

Remember the parable of tares (false Christians) and wheat (true Christians). Judgment comes first upon the church.

 

[Juelrei]

No, it says ALL AGES, if there is a "church age" then that means there is a ceasing of an age. That it is temporal.

Yes. Time is temporal.

But that verse explicitly states ALL AGES. In other words there is no ceasing throughout all ages. And yes, the kingdom of God is eternal.

Ephesians 3:21, The Gospel of Jesus Christ does not cease. The scriptures concerning the Messiah have been in the Bible throughout all the ages.

The Church Age will cease.

ALL AGES (here to the end and beyond e.g. the church is never going to be removed) > church age

Yes it is, to be replaced by the Messianic Millennium. The body of Christ will have it's function. But the reconciled Jews will have their higher function in teaching both the church and those of the world who go into the Millennium.

Remember the parable of tares (false Christians) and wheat (true Christians). Judgment comes first upon the church.

In Matthew 13:30, The tares are not defined as "false Christians". But rather defined as "the sons of the evil one." sown by the enemy, the devil (13:38).

Matthew 13:38, The field is the world where the good and the bad seed have been sown. His kingdom is the world that God created (13:41; Genesis 1:1-25).

Matthew 13:41, At the end of the age, the angels will gather out from the world all stumbling blocks and those who commit lawlessness.

Matthew 13:40-42, the tares are removed.

Matthew 13:49, the wicked are removed from among the righteous. Judgement does not come first upon the church.

Just as in the Egyptian bondage of the Jews. Egypt was judged but the Jews in the land of Goshen were not. They had received the blood of the passover lamb.

"The season of judgement begins with the household of God." The word "krima" in 1 Peter 4:17 translated "judgement" means distinguish. Like God distinguished the difference between those in Egypt and those in Goshen.

Judgement comes upon whatever is false in the world. The church is not judged along with the world because it has the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse them, and the church holds forth the truth, even being in the world but not of it (John 17:14; 15:19).

 

[random person]

In Matthew 13:30, The tares are not defined as "false Christians". But rather defined as "the sons of the evil one." sown by the enemy, the devil (13:38).

Matthew 13:38, The field is the world where the good and the bad seed have been sown. His kingdom is the world that God created (13:41; Genesis 1:1-25).

Matthew 13:41, At the end of the age, the angels will gather out from the world all stumbling blocks and those who commit lawlessness.

Matthew 13:40-42, the tares are removed.

Matthew 13:49, the wicked are removed from among the righteous. Judgement does not come first upon the church.

Just as in the Egyptian bondage of the Jews. Egypt was judged but the Jews in the land of Goshen were not. They had received the blood of the passover lamb.

"The season of judgement begins with the household of God." The word "krima" in 1 Peter 4:17 translated "judgement" means distinguish. Like God distinguished the difference between those in Egypt and those in Goshen.

Judgement comes upon whatever is false in the world. The church is not judged along with the world because it has the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse them, and the church holds forth the truth, even being in the world but not of it (John 17:14; 15:19).

And where in the bible does it say the body of Christ will cease? Where's your scriptural evidence?

Furthermore you overlooked Matthew 13:41. The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend. Also read 2 Peter 2:1-3.



For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

 

[Biblewriter]

No, it says ALL AGES, if there is a "church age" then that means there is a ceasing of an age. That it is temporal. But that verse explicitly states ALL AGES. In other words there is no ceasing throughout all ages. And yes, the kingdom of God is eternal.

ALL AGES (here to the end and beyond e.g. the church is never going to be removed) > church age

Remember the parable of tares (false Christians) and wheat (true Christians). Judgment comes first upon the church.

God will have glory in the church when it is in heaven, even as He has glory in it in earth now. You are just setting up straw horses so you can knock them down.

 

[Biblewriter]

you overlooked Matthew 13:41. The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend. Also read 2 Peter 2:1-3.

Show just one scripture that says His kingdom is the church.

 

[random person]

Show just one scripture that says His kingdom is the church.

For one thing the Kingdom of God is within us and secondly tares are counterfeit Christians just as tares are false wheat.

 

[random person]

God will have glory in the church when it is in heaven, even as He has glory in it in earth now. You are just setting up straw horses so you can knock them down.

Oh riiiight.... the church and the Holy Spirit are raptured away according to you folks... good luck converting the Jews during the Tribulation which happened over 1,900 years ago after the fact

 

[Biblewriter]

Oh riiiight.... the church and the Holy Spirit are raptured away according to you folks... good luck converting the Jews during the Tribulation which happened over 1,900 years ago after the fact

Your denial that the church will be caught up to the Lord is an explicit denial of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. but to deny that it will happen is to deny the explicit words of God. This is not acceptable in anyone professing to be a Christian teacher.

 

[random person]

Your denial that the church will be caught up to the Lord is an explicit denial of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. but to deny that it will happen is to deny the explicit words of God. This is not acceptable in anyone professing to be a Christian teacher.

No just read the passage in its proper context read verses 13-15:


But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

[Danoh]

Right after Paul's Romans 1:16's "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek," passage he goes into great detail about Israel's status before God as what he only summarizes at 3:9 as "in no wise... better than" the Gentiles - how that God has just "proved before" - from :1:17 to 3:9 here, "BOTH Jews and Gentiles, that they are ALL under sin."

Previous to his writing of Romans, this back then an unexpected, odd new Apostle - of the GENTILES - had declared in Acts 13 how that the truth of Acts 3:26's "unto you first" gospel of the Circumcision Gal. 2:7-9, was no longer...see Acts 13:44-48.

Later, in Romans, he writes Romans 1:16 in light of that and the truth of Rom. 11:25-29 - that Israel's "you first" has been put on hold by God "til the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Thus, Romans 1:16 is not some sort of "put Israel first," rather, it is "you Jews who think you still have priority have been concluded in need of this UNcircumcision Gospel committed unto me, as "also to the Greek."

Again, the Mystery first revealed to and through this then, odd, new, completely unexpected Apostle - OF THE GENTILES - clears these various issues up...

 

[random person]

Right after Paul's Romans 1:16's "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek," passage he goes into great detail about Israel's status before God as what he only summarizes at 3:9 as "in no wise... better than" the Gentiles - how that God has just "proved before" - from :1:17 to 3:9 here, "BOTH Jews and Gentiles, that they are ALL under sin."

Previous to his writing of Romans, this back then an unexpected, odd new Apostle - of the GENTILES - had declared in Acts 13 how that the truth of Acts 3:26's "unto you first" gospel of the Circumcision Gal. 2:7-9, was no longer...see Acts 13:44-48.

Later, in Romans, he writes Romans 1:16 in light of that and the truth of Rom. 11:25-29 - that Israel's "you first" has been put on hold by God "til the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Thus, Romans 1:16 is not some sort of "put Israel first," rather, it is "you Jews who think you still have priority have been concluded in need of this UNcircumcision Gospel committed unto me, as "also to the Greek."

Again, the Mystery first revealed to and through this then, odd, new, completely unexpected Apostle - OF THE GENTILES - clears these various issues up...

No it means that the Gospel was preached to the Jews first, Acts 1-10.

And that Peter was the Apostle of the Jews.

Paul was the Apostle of the Gentles.

Galatians 1:12, 2:7-8

 

[Danoh]

No it means that the Gospel was preached to the Jews first, Acts 1-10.

And that Peter was the Apostle of the Jews.

Paul was the Apostle of the Gentles.

Galatians 1:12, 2:7-8

I partly agree with that, as regards Rom. 1:16's "to the Jew first."

As regards Acts 1-10, per 11:19; which is a return to the thought if 8:4.

That is "the gospel of [belonging to] the Circumcision" first, Gal. 2:7; Acts 3:26, which " they of [belonging to] the Circumcision... believed" Acts 10:45, which gospel "the Apostle of [belonging to] the Circumcision" - Peter - had preached unto ISRAEL FIRST, Gal. 2:8; Acts 5:31, which gospel is laid out in Acts 3:12-26, et al.

Which gospel - of [belonging to] the Circumcision - God revealed to James, Cephas [Peter] and John, through that then unexpected, new, one Apostle too many for Israel's Twelve Thrones: Paul, was now comfned to what God now confined the term "the Circumcision" to - "they of the circumcision which believed" their gospel when it had still been in operation, Gal. 2:7-9; Rom. 11:25-29; 2 Peter 3.

For just before saving Paul, God had concluded "the rest" of Israel willfully "blind" in the "UNcircumcision of their heart and ears" Acts 7:51; Rom. 2:28, 29; 3:9; 9-11, et al.

In Acts 3, Peter had preached the Lord's 2 Coming,NOT the Rapture, as the Rapture is NOT Darby's brain child, rather, it is God's. It is part of that GENTILE Mystery Grace - " even the HIDDEN wisdom OF GOD" ordained BY HIM before the world [not part of what was PROPHESIED since the world] Acts 3: 21; 1 Cor. 2:7, et al.

With Israel concluded in UNcircumcision, their gospel of [belonging to] the Circumcision was put on hold "til the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" and Peter, et al were now to confine their gospel to "they of the Circumcision which believed." Its why their Epistles are establishment truth so rich in Circumcision Truth as to their hope - that hope they understood in Acts 1-3; the hope of His RETURN to Israel.

But, I write this from the overall operating premise that is the Mid-Acts Mystery preached by Paul, so I doubt it will reach ears other than those so inclined to "receive " them with all readiness of mind, searching the scriptures daily, whether" these "things were so" Acts 17:11, rather than outright seek to contradict them first, just because they do not right off fit their own chief operating premise.

Respectfully...

 

[from scratch]

I find it amazing that you would even imagine that this even presents a problem. The gospel is certainly to the Jew first, but that has zero bearing on dispensationalism. A Jew that accepts Jesus as savior becomes part of the church..

You are assuming, wtihout a scrap of scriptural evidence, that Glory in the church means glory on earth. But this assumption does not only lack even a scrap of scriptural evidence, it is directly contradicted by numerous scriptures.

I get into trouble for thinking. Guess I must love it.

But is the problem the same one Jews had in looking for the Messiah? They were only considering their current affliction and an earthly kingdom.

First, we notice the words, "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." (Romans 8:18) This scripture clearly speaks of a glory that is yo come after this present time. We see this again in the words, "our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" (2 Corinthians 4:17)

But the scriptures not only tell us this glory will be in a future time, the following passage explicitly tells us that it will be in the resurrection, and that this will be celestial, as opposed to terrestial. That is, that it will be in heaven, not on the earth.


35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain--perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1 Corinthians 15:35-54

 

[Danoh]

From Scratch, Israel sought a redemption from its enemies here on Earth. The angel Gabriel confirmed said redemption in Luke one and two, and the Spirit confirmed it in Luke two. Look at where the so called Great Commission is said to begin in Luke 24, which follows Isaiah 2:1-5 thus, the Acts 1:6 question, and the Spirit's re-confirmation of this same Earthly hope for Israel in Acts 3.

You're better off thinking

 

[random person]

Your denial that the church will be caught up to the Lord is an explicit denial of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. but to deny that it will happen is to deny the explicit words of God. This is not acceptable in anyone professing to be a Christian teacher.

So you believe in a pre-Trib resurrection?