Role of Mary

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 22, 2004

And I'd also ask, why does Mary seem to get more attention than Jesus? At least it seems that way to me.

That's strange. During the Mass, Mary is hardly mentioned, but Jesus is talked about a LOT.

If Protestants are concerned that we honor Mary too much, I'm concerned that Protestants honor Mary too little, even to the point of disrespect. I've heard some Protestants actually make fun of Mary, which got kinda scary. Me, personally, I'd like to be on good terms with my Savior's mom, if you know what I mean. It's kind of like an Englishman telling the King of England (assuming the monarch was male for this example) that his mom doesn't matter. The King would probably slap you.

so why is Mary seem to be exalted above every other and Joseph isnt?

Joseph didn't give birth to Jesus. Gabriel didn't say "Hail Joseph, full of grace, blessed art thou among men." On the other hand, Mary is Jesus' full mother, and thus, she is mother of all of us.

i see no prayers to joseph and doesnt the Catholic church deem Men above women ?

That's very offensive to suggest that my Church is sexist. We are not. Kinda funny that we're sexist and supposedly "worship Mary" at the same time. You can't have it both ways! Just pick one or the other!

By the way, here's a prayer to St. Joseph:

"O Blessed Saint Joseph, faithful guardian and protector of virgins, to whom God entrusted Jesus and Mary, I implore you by the love which you did bear them, to preserve me from every defilement of soul and body, that I may always serve them in holiness and purity of love. Amen."

RonBa · Aug 22, 2004

Orthodoxyusa said:
RonBa,

You're really gonna have to give up this idea that everything you need to know about Christianity can be found in scripture.

What you have said here is just plain blasphemy......

P.S. What does the word "saint" mean to you?

Forgive me...

Forgive me for wanting to follow the Bible.

cajunhillbilly · Aug 22, 2004

Proud member of the Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club: "Putting the SMACKDOWN on heresy since 1981!"

I like that. Very funny.

Axion · Aug 22, 2004

RonBa said:
I believe that Mary's role was to be the mother of Jesus. That is all, she was a sinner, she needed a Saviour just like we all do.

Where does the bible tell us that Mary was a sinner? This is an invention of yours.

She has no role at all now. We come to the Father through Jesus Christ, not Mary or any other dead saint.

A) Mary is not dead. She is alive in Christ.

B) Mary's role is Mother of all Christians. They are the body of Christ. She is mother of Christ. Christians are brothers of Jesus. As such Mary is our Mother too - as confirmed from the cross.

Axion · Aug 22, 2004

RonBa said:
Mary was chosen by the Father to be the mother of Jesus Christ. That was the role of Mary. She was to instruct, teach and nurture Him to adulthood. This is what she did.

In turn we are to respect her for this but not make her into something that she was never meant to be.

Who decides what Mary "was meant to be"? You?

In fact Scripture tells us that Mary is full of Grace (Kecharitomene).
That she is blessed (exalted) among women.
And that All generations will call her blessed.

Making her or trying to make her into a saint is not Biblical.

I do not have one verse to say she ever went to heaven.

Can you give me one.

Rev 12: 1: A great and wondrous sign
appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth...
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 22, 2004

Rev 12: 1: A great and wondrous sign
appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth...
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Yes, I wonder who this could be.

Proud member of the Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club: "Putting the SMACKDOWN on heresy since 1981!"

Yes, get your merchandise here! www.ratzingerfanclub.com

katherine2001 · Aug 22, 2004

Archbishop 10-K, I'm with you. I wonder how Jesus feels when people treat His mother with such disdain?

Personally, I'm thankful to have her intercession on my behalf. I can use all the prayers that she and the other saints are willing to pray on my behalf.

RonBa · Aug 22, 2004

Axion said:
Where does the bible tell us that Mary was a sinner? This is an invention of yours.

A) Mary is not dead. She is alive in Christ.

B) Mary's role is Mother of all Christians. They are the body of Christ. She is mother of Christ. Christians are brothers of Jesus. As such Mary is our Mother too - as confirmed from the cross.

Let us have a look at each point you have made.

"Where does the bible tell us that Mary was a sinner? This is an invention of yours."

It is no invention of mine at all. No where does the Bible say Mary was sinless. The Bible tells me that all have sinned, when it says all, it includes Mary.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore °, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

That is Jesus, not Mary.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

"A) Mary is not dead. She is alive in Christ."

You will need to show me from the Bible that Mary did not die.

"B) Mary's role is Mother of all Christians. They are the body of Christ. She is mother of Christ. Christians are brothers of Jesus. As such Mary is our Mother too - as confirmed from the cross."

Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ, no problems with that.

Then your assumption falls apart. It does not make Mary our mother at all. It only makes Mary the mother of Jesus.

I will only accept what is in the Bible. If you want me to believe then show me from the Bible.

RonBa · Aug 22, 2004

Archbishop 10-K said:
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Yes, I wonder who this could be.

Yes, get your merchandise here! www.ratzingerfanclub.com

Revelation is a book about prophecy.

What is a woman in prophecy?

InnerPhyre · Aug 22, 2004

RonBa said:
I will only accept what is in the Bible.

Indeed one of the great tragedies of our day.

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 22, 2004

RonBa said:
Revelation is a book about prophecy.

What is a woman in prophecy?

A woman in prophecy can just be a woman. Just like the rider in white can be a man (Jesus.)

I will only accept what is in the Bible.

And also what Ellen White says in her books.

onlythundergivesmerest · Aug 22, 2004

Hey guys,
I'm pretty sure that it is pretty well accepted in eschatology that the woman in Rev 12: 1 represents Israel. I don't know of any disagreement on that. The reason for that is because of the twelve stars. We interpret the twelve stars to mean the twelve tribes of Israel because of the dream that Joseph(the guy with the coat of many colors, not Mary's husband) had about twelve stars back in the old Testament.
I don't understand how anyone can believe that Mary was sinless. I do believe that the Bible isn't the only source from which to learn about Christianity but I don't believe we should make any doctrines that go against what the Bible says, and saying that anyone besides Christ could ever be sinless seems to go against the word of God.
On the speculation side of things: if Mary was sinless, does that mean that she didn't need Christ's blood to be saved?
Also, if she were sinless, why did we need Jesus?...why couldn't Mary die on the cross and save us?

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 22, 2004

I'm pretty sure that it is pretty well accepted in eschatology that the woman in Rev 12: 1 represents Israel. I don't know of any disagreement on that.

Well, for the first 1500 years of Christianity, everyone would disagree with you. Mary has a crown of stars because she is the Queen of heaven. Remember, in the Old Testament (II Kings) the mother of the Davidic King of Israel was the Queen.

Actually, Job 1:1 says that Job was perfect and blameless. Does that contradict the Bible? Of course not. There are exceptions made to the rule. We believe that is almost blasphemous to think, though, that God would have allowed Jesus to be born from a sinful vessel.

if Mary was sinless, does that mean that she didn't need Christ's blood to be saved?

No. Even Mary needed a Savior. She would have needed Jesus every step of her own life to abstain from sin.

why couldn't Mary die on the cross and save us?

Because Mary is not the Second Person of the Trinity.

good4u · Aug 22, 2004

Tho' highly favored of God, she is a servant of God nonetheless. Too much is made of Mary by certain faiths which is near to idolotry.

CrossMovement · Aug 22, 2004

onlythundergivesmerest said:
I do believe that the Bible isn't the only source from which to learn about Christianity but I don't believe we should make any doctrines that go against what the Bible says

I agree with you on this

good4u said:
Tho' highly favored of God, she is a servant of God nonetheless. Too much is made of Mary by certain faiths which is near to idolotry.

good point

Lynn73 · Aug 22, 2004

onlythundergivesmerest said:
Hey guys,
I'm pretty sure that it is pretty well accepted in eschatology that the woman in Rev 12: 1 represents Israel. I don't know of any disagreement on that. The reason for that is because of the twelve stars.

I agree with this. The woman is Israel with the twelve stars representing the twelve tribes. Christ came from Israel. The assumption that this is Mary just may be incorrect, and I believe it is. Thanks for pointing that out, onlythunder.

Lynn73 · Aug 22, 2004

katherine2001 said:
Archbishop 10-K, I'm with you. I wonder how Jesus feels when people treat His mother with such disdain?

Personally, I'm thankful to have her intercession on my behalf. I can use all the prayers that she and the other saints are willing to pray on my behalf.

I don't think we treat her with disdain. We simply don't believe the Scripture teaches the things about her that Catholics believe. She's important and blessed, yes, but we don't elevate her to be more that what she is. Not holding her up to almost worship as it seems some do, doesn't mean we're treating her with disdain. Just my opinion, no offense intended.

Archbishop 10-K · Aug 22, 2004

Lynn73 said:
I agree with this. The woman is Israel with the twelve stars representing the twelve tribes. Christ came from Israel. The assumption that this is Mary just may be incorrect, and I believe it is. Thanks for pointing that out, onlythunder.

But the question begs to be asked: why did the Church Fathers not interpret it this way? It's obviously not as obvious as it seems.

SumTinWong · Aug 22, 2004

Archbishop 10-K said:
Mary has a crown of stars because she is the Queen of heaven.

In light of the scriptures in Jeremiah 44:16-19 We will not listen to what you claim the Lord has spoken to us. Instead we will do everything we vowed we would do. We will sacrifice and pour out drink offerings to the goddess called the Queen of Heaven as we and our ancestors, our kings, and our leaders used to do in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food and were well-off and had no troubles. But ever since we stopped sacrificing and pouring out drink offerings to the Queen of Heaven, we have been in great need. And our people have died in wars or of starvation. And the women added, We did indeed sacrifice and pour out drink offerings to the Queen of Heaven. But it was with the full knowledge and approval of our husbands that we made cakes in her image and poured out drink offerings to her.

And Jeremiah 7:18 "The children are gathering firewood. The fathers are building fires with it. And the women are mixing dough to bake cakes to offer to the goddess they call the Queen of Heaven.jer7_notes.htm#738 They are also pouring out drink offerings to other gods. They seem to do all this justjer7_notes.htm#739 to grieve me."

Do you really want to give Mary, that title?

MadeInOz · Aug 22, 2004

I believe that she was a mere woman, who was chosen by God to be the receptacle of Jesus, who was both the Son of Man, and the Son of God. I don't go in for the... the... not the catholification... but... I don't hold her up as being more than that.

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