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What bothers me most about the video is the unspoken assumption that Gandhi was too good for Hell. I certainly hope Gandhi is in Heaven, but if he is it's because of the grace and mercy of God, not his ideology and accomplishments.
The point of the person who left the note was probably - what is this piece doing in my church?
I don't know if he is leading people to Hell. He might well be - I haven't visited his Church or met those who became professing Christians through his preaching. Do any of you know large numbers of professing Christians who visit his church? Are those who condemn "emergent types" actually friends with many "emergent types?" But I do know born again believers who have been blessed by some of what he has written and said, even if they don't agree with much of it. He asks some questions that are worth asking, and others that aren't.
Apart from Scripture, I've been blessed by what some ancient Catholic mystics have written. I've been inspired by some Celtic Christian writings. Some of the revelation of the spiritual life in there is mindblowing - and some is worth being wary of. But many protestants would damn these works and take anything pre-Reformatin as 'no go', apart from perhaps the writings of the earliest Church Fathers (though they were far from perfect, and often had their own strange ideas about Salvation, Heaven, Hell, Angels, Lucifer, etc.) I'm inspired in my walk with Christ by the love of women like Mother Theresa, who don't seem particularly desperate to preach on Hell. Mother Theresa even made one comment once that sounded like she didn't think people needed Jesus for salvation, but her writings, actions, and most of her other words reeked of the love of Christ. I know people have been inspired by her to make Jesus their Lord of and Saviour, despite her Catholic theology.
Though Rob Bell is nothing like Mother Theresa, and though I can see why he sends warning bells in people's hearts, this Hell issue isn't the only thing he talks about. His stuff called "Everything is Spiritual", for example, is really interesting - taking the latest findings of modern physics and science in general and revealing the majesty of the Christian God through them.
I know the above probably won't convince anyone. But for a start, I haven't seen him outright advocate universalism (I'd have to read the book to see if he does), and I have seen him proclaim Jesus as Messiah, Saviour, and King. I will say that the emergent church needs serious reforming, but I'm sure we as charismatics should understand how dodgy it is to brazenly state God is utterly not in a movement, just because it is different and currently very imperfect.
Why the subversive note? Often the real question lies behind the automatic response, and people aren't really even aware of what the real question is. Probably true of the writer of the "subversive note". Also, such a subversive note is itself a bit of an artistic statement. Many artists would hope that their contributions would cause such a strong reaction.Why the subversive note then why not just ask. It was not a very cool thing to do. That is the point that Rob was making not that Gandhi was too good for hell. IMHO>
I think it's funny that Rob Bell is being criticized in this sub-forum. Of course nobody here is going to like him and dub him a 'heretic', he doesn't preach their brand of "spirit-filled Christianity".
I love Bell and his approach to Christianity, he uses logic and reasoning but still acknowledges the Spiritual side of everything. I've read all of his books, watched all of his videos and listened to most of his podcasts and he does not preach universalism. Every criticism I've ever heard about him has mo basis, the critic has taken something he said completely out of context and manipulated it to fit their agenda.
JimB said:
Although you've got to admit he's pretty clear on where he stands on the popular Dante concept of hell.
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If God is really working there who are we to drag out isolated straw arguments about hell and how often and how he teaches about it. As a Christian do I go around thinking about hell all the time is my "orthodox" view of hell makeing me a better disciple of Jesus? How many people who have ever attended or been part of the Christian community at MarsHill post here.
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gratefulgrace said:It is interesting to me why some Christians feel so threatened by Rob Bell. He says lots of very profound and good things about who we are in Christ and the Spirit of God. What he has declared in his written words can be confusing and I have admitted that I was not that excited about some of the things I read in Velvet Elvis. He says some things I don't really understand or agree with as well but many people have come to personal faith in Jesus through his ministry. If his work is of God it will stand if not it will fall.
He appeals to a different group of folks than many churches do. Are we jealous of his success?
'he has a huge church therefore he must be teaching heresy or he wouldn't have that large a following. He is not really telling the whole truth about God's wrath and judgement. These people must be decieved and are being duped into a false concept of God'.
However, If God is really working there who are we to drag out isolated straw arguments about hell and how often and how he teaches about it. As a Christian do I go around thinking about hell all the time is my "orthodox" view of hell makeing me a better disciple of Jesus? How many people who have ever attended or been.
Do we really know what is going on or are we just silly gossips taking snippets of data from blogs and from lets criticize everyone websites. If he fails at all I think it is in trying to be too relevant and too connected to what is actually happening in the world and what that means here and now for the human heart. His desire is to affirm the believer through love and grace and perhaps he oversteps the work of the Holy Spirit in conviction and repentence but this is just my opinion. But does that mean that everyone under his ministry is a heretic and unsaved. Do you really think God is that small?
Why don't we all just pray for Rob that God's will for his life will be fulfilled according to these last scriptures and leave it at that, just a thought. gg
The Ghandi note is a dangerous assumption and here's why.
When people ask whether or not someone is in hell, I think the biblical answer would be to say that the only way to heaven to be with Jesus forever is if he/she has repented and put their trust in Him (cuz remember, the gospel is about the complete forgiveness of sins).
I will say that God prepared hell for satan and the demons (Matthew 25:41). Since He is right in judging satan with hell, then He is also right in doing the same thing for those who choose to follow him. Why? Because He is holy.
What needs to be understood is that people are in hell because they rejected God's invitation to salvation that is only through Jesus Christ and chose to go a different way. When someone goes his or her own way even upon death, hell is the end result.
You have to admit that there has been a excess of misguided junk written about the torments of hell over the past few years23 Minutes in Hell, Escape from Hell, A Divine Revelation of Hell, the Drilling to HellSounds of the Damned recording, not to mention the scare-your-pants-off Hells Gates and Heavens Flames play presented in churches across America and the annual Hell Houses every Halloween. It is no wonder to me that someone would try to balance things out with a focus on the mercy of God and not just the judgment of hell. Some Christians think the only way to convert the sinner is to scare the hell out of them but the Bible says mercy triumphs over judgment, (James 2.13).
~Jim
True faith believes in God, not itself.
There is something to this for sure.Actually, I think hell shouldn't so much to convince the sinner to turn to Christ, because yes His kindness leads to repentance (although if hell turns a person to Christ then amen!). I think hell should scare Christians more than sinners, scare them because they would let an opportunity go by to share the gospel with someone who, even though they don't believe it, could be headed to hell that day.
Actually, I think hell shouldn't so much to convince the sinner to turn to Christ, because yes His kindness leads to repentance (although if hell turns a person to Christ then amen!). I think hell should scare Christians more than sinners, scare them because they would let an opportunity go by to share the gospel with someone who, even though they don't believe it, could be headed to hell that day.
I think you have something here.There is something to this for sure.
Actually, I think hell shouldn't so much to convince the sinner to turn to Christ, because yes His kindness leads to repentance (although if hell turns a person to Christ then amen!). I think hell should scare Christians more than sinners, scare them because they would let an opportunity go by to share the gospel with someone who, even though they don't believe it, could be headed to hell that day.
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