Rich rich rich... and all the time?!

[Theophilus7]

Hello folks.

Here's a little challenge to those who decry "prosperity teaching" as an abberation of the gospel, and to those, like myself, who question whether Christians in the will of God will always experience, or should always expect to experience, material abundance. What shall we make of this passage of scripture in 2Corinthians 9:8-11? We surely can't spiritualise it. We can't dispensationalise it, either. How then do we understand it in a balanced and integrated way? Is it applicable to all, or only to some? How is it qualified? Must we understand it in a conditional sense, or is it expressing an absolute promise?

As usual, I have my own views, but I'd be curious to see other peoples' - but particularly the interpretations of those who dislike the "prosperity message". You know who you are.

(26/03/04) An additional comment: - many of the replies this post has already received have completely failed to engage with the text in an honest and meaningful way. Most people thusfar are only stating their opinions on the subject of prosperity. Not what I asked for folks. I'd like us to centre our discussion around this scripture. If you're anti-prosperity, a word-for-word explanation of this text would be nice... Cheers.

---
Here's the text in as many translations as I could grab hold of at the time.

A Conservative Version
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to abound all grace for you, so that always in everything having all sufficiency, ye may abound for every good work...
10 And he who supplies seed to the man who sows, and bread for eating, may he supply and multiply your seed, and may he increase the fruits of your righteousness,
11 being enriched in everything for every generosity, which works gratitude to God through us.


American Standard Version
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace abound unto you; that ye, having always all sufficiency in everything, may abound unto every good work:...
10 And he that supplieth seed to the sower and bread for food, shall supply and multiply your seed for sowing, and increase the fruits of your righteousness:
11 ye being enriched in everything unto all liberality, which worketh through us thanksgiving to God.

Derby Translation
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 But God is able to make every gracious gift abound towards you, that, having in every way always all-sufficiency, ye may abound to every good work:...
10 Now he that supplies seed to the sower and bread for eating shall supply and make abundant your sowing, and increase the fruits of your righteousness:
11 enriched in every way unto all free-hearted liberality, which works through us thanksgiving to God.


Douay-Rheims Bible
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace abound in you; that ye always, having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work...
10 And he that ministereth seed to the sower, will both give you bread to eat, and will multiply your seed, and increase the growth of the fruits of your justice:
11 That being enriched in all things, you may abound unto all simplicity, which worketh through us thanksgiving to God.


GOD'S WORD
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 Besides, God will give you his constantly overflowing kindness. Then, when you always have everything you need, you can do more and more good things....
10 God gives seed to the farmer and food to those who need to eat. God will also give you seed and multiply it. In your lives he will increase the things you do that have his approval.
11 God will make you rich enough so that you can always be generous. Your generosity will produce thanksgiving to God because of us.


Hebrew Names Version
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that you, always having all sufficiency in everything, may abound to every good work....
10 Now may he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food, supply and multiply your seed for sowing, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;
11 you being enriched in everything to all liberality, which works through us thanksgiving to God.


Montgomery New Testament
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to give you an overflowing measure of every grace, so that all your wants of every kind may be supplied at all times, and you may give of your abundance to every good work;...
10 He who ever supplies seed to the sower, and bread for the food of man, will supply and make plentous your seed, and increase the harvest springing up from your almsgiving.
11 You yourselves will be enriched with all good things, that you may give ungrudgingly; and your gifts, of which I am the agent, will make men give thanks to God.


New American Standard Bible
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;...
10 Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
11 you will be enriched in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving to God.


New International Version
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work....
10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness.
11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.


Revised Webster Version
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things , may abound to every good work:...
10 Now may he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness
11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.

The Amplified Bible
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace every favor and earthly blessing come to you in abundance, so that you may always and under all circumstances and whatever the need be self-sufficient [possessing enough to require no aid or support and furnished in abundance for every good work and charitable donation]...
10 And [God] Who provides seed for the sower and bread for eating will also provide and multiply your [resources for] sowing and increase the fruits of your righteousness [which manifests itself in active goodness, kindness, and charity]. [Isa. 55:10; Hos. 10:12.]
11 Thus you will be enriched in all things and in every way, so that you can be generous, and [your generosity as it is] administered by us will bring forth thanksgiving to God.


The Bible in Basic English
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to give you all grace in full measure; so that ever having enough of all things, you may be full of every good work:...
10 And he who gives seed for putting into the field and bread for food, will take care of the growth of your seed, at the same time increasing the fruits of your righteousness;
11 Your wealth being increased in everything, with a simple mind, causing praise to God through us.


The Common Edition: NT
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, so that you, always having all sufficiency in everything, may have an abundance for every good work....
10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will multiply the harvest of your righteousness.
11 You will be enriched in every way for great generosity, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God.


The Emphasised Bible
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 Moreover God is able to cause, every gracious gift, to superabound unto you, in order that, having in every thing, at every time, every kind of sufficiency of your own, ye may be superabounding unto every good work;...
10 Now, he that supplieth seed to the sower, and bread for eating, will supply and multiply your seed for sowing, and cause to grow your fruits of righteousness:
11 In every thing, being enriched, unto every kind of liberality, ˜ which, indeed, worketh out, through us, thanksgiving unto God;

The Living Oracles
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make every blessing abound to you; that in everything, always having all sufficiency, you may abound in every good work....
10 Now, may he who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply your seed sown, and increase the products of your righteousness.
11 That you may be enriched in everything, for all liberality, which produces, through us, thanksgiving to God.


Twentieth Century NT
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 For it is in the power of God, to make all good abound to you, so that ye may have, at all times, and in every thing, what is sufficient for you; and may abound in every good work...
10 Now he that giveth seed to the sower, and bread for food, may he give and multiply your seed, and increase the fruits of your righteousness:
11 so that in every thing, ye may be enriched unto all liberality, to the completion of our thanksgiving to God.


Webster's Bible
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that you, always having all sufficiency in everything, may abound to every good work...
10 Now may he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food, supply and multiply your seed for sowing, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;
11 you being enriched in everything to all liberality, which works through us thanksgiving to God.


Weymouth's Translation
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to bestow every blessing on you in abundance, so that richly enjoying all sufficiency at all times, you may have ample means for all good works....
10 And God who continually supplies seed for the sower and bread for eating, will supply you with seed and multiply it, and will cause your almsgiving to yield a plentiful harvest.
11 May you be abundantly enriched so as to show all liberality, such as through our instrumentality brings thanksgiving to God.


World English Bible
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that you, always having all sufficiency in everything, may abound to every good work....
10 Now may he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food, supply and multiply your seed for sowing, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;
11 you being enriched in everything to all liberality, which works through us thanksgiving to God.


Young's Literal Translation
II Corinthians 9:8-11
8 and God [is] able all grace to cause to abound to you, that in every thing always all sufficiency having, ye may abound to every good work...
10 and may He who is supplying seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness,
11 in every thing being enriched to all liberality, which doth work through us thanksgiving to God,

 

[Jim B]

Good to see you back T7.

Okay, I’ll take the bait.

The Apostle is simply encouraging generosity among the Corinthians. He appeals to Psalm 112 to demonstrate that generosity is rewarded by God who will, as Jesus promised, provide for our needs if we seek first God’s kingdom. Giving so that we may derive personal gain, IMO, is not the object of Paul’s words – a generous heart is.

To view giving as a means to getting is merely greed and has neither God nor others as the focus. To give for purely selfish reasons is contrary to the entire spirit of both testaments.

I give because I love God and others. Period. However God chooses to reward me, materially or spiritually, is of no consequence because, in the generosity itself, I have crucified self. Generosity is and should be its own reward.

That is the message in the scripture you offered.

\o/

 

[FoundInGrace]

Maybe God giving us an abundance to do a good work would be Him making up abundantly poor so we can be Jesus to a poor person and share our meagre food with them. Only a poor person would get the sacrifice of sharing food. One hungry person to another hungry person.
I dunno, hypothetical idea really, the prosperity thing is difficult to understand for me.
It troubles me the greed thing that can get mixed in with the prosperity approach, quite subtle, seeking prosperity makes you see lack and creates emptiness before God. Where thankfulness is preached regardless of circumstance, no one seems to notice 'lack' and people seem happier and give spontaneously cos they feel full and blessed by God whereever they're at.
Just an observation...

 

[Mustaphile]

I think they are all talking about being spiritually enriched to perform works of righteousness. They also specifically talk about seed and food, things that are fundamental to staying alive. To seek the riches of this world is to become satisfied with what this world has to offer. Jesus's teachings were all altruistic. Jesus didn't seek the things of this world, but was obedient to his Father in heaven, and told us all to follow in his footsteps. If you are enriched, it is so that you can give away your riches. Whether those riches be material or physical the same thing applies. If you have been enriched with joy, then you give that joy to others. If you have been enriched with money, then you give that money to others.

Philosophies of self-interest are humanist philosophies that are the driving force behind modern capitalism. Self-interest is the anti-thesis of the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Basil]

If we do have abundance and riches or anything good we should acknowledge God as our benefactor, but the Bible clearly does not state that we are promised prosperity in this life. This understanding would require use of scissors, glue, and some blank paper on which to paste a few dozen scriptures. Do we want to edit God's word to make it pleasing to us?

No question there are scriptures that tell how wonderfully blessed we may be by God, but there are at least as many which speak of the sufferings all those faithful to Christ will share in, and ever greater sufferings than Christ. We are told to "count it all joy" when we suffer for Christ. We are told to "sell all we have and give it to the poor." For centuries holy servants of Christ have voluntarily ebraced suffering, poverty, and rejection of worldly riches to focus on serving Christ. What do you say about those people? Let's be careful that we are not gathering teachers and teachings that satify our desires rather than Christ's, creating a gospel of men rather than the true Gospel of Christ.

 

[Andrew]

Prosperity is part of the cross. Once one sees that, all arguments cease. Its that simple.

 

[Jim B]

Prosperity is part of the cross. Once one sees that, all arguments cease. Its that simple.

I once saw it, Andrew. Then I saw the fallacy of it. Maybe one day you will see it too if you really seek the truth.

Now, Did that sound arrogant to you?

That's sort of how your post sounded to me.

\o/

 

[Andrew]

Jim B,

No Jim B, it didnt sound arrogant, it just sounds sad that you've given up a truth. Its like those who say that they use to speak in tongues, and then saw that it was useless or 'demonic' and so no longer use it.

Anyway, I've started another thread called 'Back to the cross' to address this topic.

 

[Jim B]

Jim B,

No Jim B, it didnt sound arrogant, it just sounds sad that you've given up a truth. Its like those who say that they use to speak in tongues, and then saw that it was useless or 'demonic' and so no longer use it.

Anyway, I've started another thread called 'Back to the cross' to address this topic.

Given up a truth, Andrew? Truth does not confuse greed and the love of money with true riches.

Here’s some "truth" I seldom if ever hear from prosperity guys. (If I do, it is always “explained” or spinned to say something different.) I have heard your select scriptures, now please hear these, just as they are written, without commentary:

1 Timothy 6
9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Matthew 19
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Matthew 8
20Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

James 2
5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Revelation 2
8"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty-yet you are rich!

Revelation 3:17
You [the church at Laodicea] say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

Proverbs 30
8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me; give me neither poverty nor riches, but give me only my daily bread.

Deuteronomy 8
13 and when your herds and flocks grow large and your silver and gold increase and all you have is multiplied, 14 then your heart will become proud and you will forget the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

1 Samuel 2
7 The LORD sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts.

Job 34
19 who shows no partiality to princes and does not favor the rich over the poor, for they are all the work of his hands?

Proverbs 11
28 Whoever trusts in his riches will fall, but the righteous will thrive like a green leaf.

Proverbs 15
27 A greedy man brings trouble to his family.

Ecclesiastes 5
10 Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless. 11 As goods increase, so do those who consume them. And what benefit are they to the owner except to feast his eyes on them?

Matthew 13
22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.

2 Corinthians 8
2Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity.

\o/

 

[robl]

If prosperity is measured in riches that are of this world, then I definitely disagree with the statement that prosperity is part of the cross. Some friends of mine just returned from India where there are beleivers that really understand what the cross means that are far from rich in terms of money. Real prosperity lies in the fact that God gives us what we need, not necesarily what we think we want. I lay up my treasures in heaven where moth and dust will not corrupt it. I only desire the money that God desires me to have and seek His purposes for whatever He gives me. May He bless you in ways that are eternal in nature!

 

[Andrew]

Given up a truth, Andrew? Truth does not confuse greed and the love of money with true riches.

Do you have to insult the intelligence of Christians? Do you think that it is only you who knows that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil? Do you think we do not know that the Bible talks about the negative effects of money if we let it control us?

Why must you, at the mention of prosperity, confine it to just the love of money for money itself?

Money is neutral like fire. It is a good servant but a poor master. We're talking about the former and we're interested in exploring the former, without forgetting the latter.

If properity preachers fall into the latter, that's their problem, I'm not interested. But their experience does not change the fact that Christ redeemed us from poverty.

If prosperity is measured in riches that are of this world, then I definitely disagree with the statement that prosperity is part of the cross. Some friends of mine just returned from India where there are beleivers that really understand what the cross means that are far from rich in terms of money. Real prosperity lies in the fact that God gives us what we need, not necesarily what we think we want. I lay up my treasures in heaven where moth and dust will not corrupt it. I only desire the money that God desires me to have and seek His purposes for whatever He gives me. May He bless you in ways that are eternal in nature!

Same old same old.... using personal experiences to build a doctrine. Sounds 'fine and noble', but a false humility becos it does not square up with scripture, neither does it honour the work of Christ.

 

[Mustaphile]

If properity preachers fall into the latter, that's their problem, I'm not interested. But their experience does not change the fact that Christ redeemed us from poverty.

So are you saying that christians in poverty are not redeemed?

 

[LivingWorship]

Maybe God giving us an abundance to do a good work would be Him making up abundantly poor so we can be Jesus to a poor person and share our meagre food with them. Only a poor person would get the sacrifice of sharing food. One hungry person to another hungry person.
I dunno, hypothetical idea really, the prosperity thing is difficult to understand for me.
It troubles me the greed thing that can get mixed in with the prosperity approach, quite subtle, seeking prosperity makes you see lack and creates emptiness before God. Where thankfulness is preached regardless of circumstance, no one seems to notice 'lack' and people seem happier and give spontaneously cos they feel full and blessed by God whereever they're at.
Just an observation...

Bravo FIG!! Bravo!! This is so right... I know a Christian pastor here in Oz (anyone konw Kevin MAD DOG Mudford??) who looks like a bike riding thug, covered in tatts, missing teeth and loud as you can imagine. But he is God's and he is being used in the gaols and around town with homeless folk and bikies to preach the gospel. Tell you what, he'll get better results with that sort of crowd than many of us.

Also Mustaphile, good work there too! I feel the REAL prosperity and healing is spiritual. Why? Among other things, this is all we take to heaven. None of our flashy cars, big homes, jewels, fortune... just our spirit (ok and soul too). So if this is the eternal factor, then isn't it safe to suggest that God's focus is to grow us spiritually?! God focuses on the spirit because it's the most important. all the rest will FADE

Again, God equips us for every good work, but good doesn't have to mean that it involves lots of money, or material wealth, or whatever. It's really not about that, but if God calls you to a particular place and task, he will give all you need to accomplish this. It can involve money but not necessarily. You can do a good work by simply picking up papers in your neighbourhood. I did that and it led to a man re-dedicating his life to God. Won't happen that way again I reckon, but that's not the point. God is sovereign, and if he's called you to a certain task then rest assured his grace will deliver you and he will provide your NEED.

 

[vanshan]

It's hard to court money, take it on dates, lavish attention on it by listening to preaching about it all the time, keep a close eye on your bank balance and dream of how much good you could do if only you had more and not be seduced by it. Let's be generous with what we have freely giving it to those in need. Let's not let our right hand know what our left hand is doing in regards to giving. Where do you want to store up your riches? It seems so simple to me . . . through Christ we have a prosperity that it not of this world.

If you are rich or have an abundant amount of money here's a simple test: consider taking every extra dollar you have about your bills and giving it away right now. Drain all your savings, sell things you have which you don't need, like a second car, and give it all away to a charity or church. Could you do this? I don't have much and this would be hard. To the degree this is impossible for us, or counting how many excuses we make why we won't do this indicates how tied to our money we are or how little faith we actually have.

By American standards my family is probably in abject poverty, but honestly I feel rich compared to those around me who are working hard for material success.

 

[LivingWorship]

To seek the riches of this world is to become satisfied with what this world has to offer.

O how did i miss this little beauty!!! You have just said what many of us have been thinking but could not express!! Well done brother. Say, where in Oz are you from?

T7, I think we can't go past the spiritual depth of the passage. I think the provision first and foremost will be spiritual. Secondly however, if there are physical things we need in order to complete the task the Lord will I believe grant that kind of request. However this is in His time not ours and as someone mentioned in another post, it ties to the purpose. God gives according to what He's called you to.

 

[Theophilus7]

Good to see you back T7.

Thank you.

The Apostle is simply encouraging generosity among the Corinthians. He appeals to Psalm 112 to demonstrate that generosity is rewarded by God who will, as Jesus promised, provide for our needs if we seek first God’s kingdom. Giving so that we may derive personal gain, IMO, is not the object of Paul’s words – a generous heart is. To view giving as a means to getting is merely greed and has neither God nor others as the focus. To give for purely selfish reasons is contrary to the entire spirit of both testaments. I give because I love God and others. Period.

So far so good, I think. But what follows next is less certain...

However God chooses to reward me, materially or spiritually, is of no consequence because, in the generosity itself, I have crucified self. Generosity is and should be its own reward. That is the message in the scripture you offered.

All very pious, but is that a fair response to the text? You have correctly exegeted Paul's intention to encourage generosity rather than selfishness, but then you say, "However God chooses to reward me, materially or spiritually", I dunno... "Generosity is...its own reward". But is this scripture offering something more definite? Does Paul say, "give, and God will reward you... perhaps... maybe by making you feel good (ie. what many people seem to mean by a spiritual blessing), and, well, just maybe by one of those, gulp, dangerous 'material blessing' things -- perhaps. But don't get your hopes up!". What is Paul saying we will be enriched with - a warm glow on the inside? Very nice. I like warm glows too. But I suggest the meaning of this text is a little more down-to-earth: Paul actually appears to be saying something more like this: "You meet others needs, God will meet yours. Look out for others, and you will find that you are taken care of too. Become a generous giver and God will see to it you have more to give. Use your money to bless people, and you will be entrusted with more."

I suggest that Paul is laying down a definite principle here - a money principle; a principle of the kingdom of God. And it makes some of us uncomfortable because it's 'material' and 'this-earthly' when our little Platonic minds wanted spiritual platitudes. One need only look at some of the reactions on this thread already. Most people aren't talking about this verse at all. They've gone straight into rant-mode, waxing eloquent about the evils of selfishness, the virtue of altruism, their love of poverty...



It's must easier to do this than to honestly engage with this verse and perform the more difficult take of exegesis: does Paul apply this principle to all or to some? Is this true all the time, or only some of the time? Are their circumstances in which this principle is true, and circumstances in which it is not? Is Paul using some kind of hyperbole ('in all things at all times')?

 

[Theophilus7]

Also Mustaphile, good work there too! I feel the REAL prosperity and healing is spiritual. Why? Among other things, this is all we take to heaven. None of our flashy cars, big homes, jewels, fortune... just our spirit (ok and soul too). So if this is the eternal factor, then isn't it safe to suggest that God's focus is to grow us spiritually?! God focuses on the spirit because it's the most important. all the rest will FADE

I feel a brief philosophical excursus is in order here: Salvation is not from the body, it is in the body. The body shall be raised again and even the world shall be remade. It is the state of separation of soul and the body (death) that is the temporary condition, not life in the body in a material world. We shall all be ruling and reigning right here in the millenium, on planet earth, in a city made of beautiful, chunky, solid stones - not floating around in an invisible ether exchanging spiritual platitudes with Plato and Aristotle.

Quite right - the present world is passing away. Very true - you can't take your car with you. But the reasons you seem to be offering for exalting the spiritual above the material have a pagan smell about them.

I mention this as these subtle kinds of philosophical assumptions which we tend to inherit as Westerners could precondition your thinking on the subject of healing and wholeness.

Just a thought.

 

[Jim B]

Do you have to insult the intelligence of Christians? Do you think that it is only you who knows that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil? Do you think we do not know that the Bible talks about the negative effects of money if we let it control us?

Why must you, at the mention of prosperity, confine it to just the love of money for money itself?

Money is neutral like fire. It is a good servant but a poor master. We're talking about the former and we're interested in exploring the former, without forgetting the latter.

If properity preachers fall into the latter, that's their problem, I'm not interested. But their experience does not change the fact that Christ redeemed us from poverty.



Same old same old.... using personal experiences to build a doctrine. Sounds 'fine and noble', but a false humility becos it does not square up with scripture, neither does it honour the work of Christ.

Okay Andrew (biting my tongue), what is all this prosperity stuff about if it’s not about MONEY?

Like other pastors, I have had to bail people out of financial woes because they bought the prosperity doctrine and overspent, fully expecting God to come to their rescue, because they just knew He wanted them to prosper and live in a new two-story, 5,000 sq.ft. home and drive a Lexus although she was a stay-at-home Mom and he was an entrance-level warehouseman. When reality hit and they bottomed-out , it was not, not surprisingly, their favorite prosperity TV-preacher that bailed them out, the one to whom they had sent tons of “seed” money – it was left to our struggling little church to come to their rescue. We cleaned up the mess left behind by their prosperity guru, who enjoyed the rewards of their devotion but did not accept the responsibility of his flawed doctrine. Sadly, though, we only prolonged the inevitable. The misled little family eventually filed bankruptcy and became among the disillusioned ex-prosperity believers that I meet all the time.

The doctrine just does not translate into real life, Andrew. It is a doctrine that does not work for everyone, as it would if it were, in fact, the "truth" you make it out to be. I know; I am working with some of its victims now.

But it does look good on paper.

Andrew, those of us who do not see it your way are not ignorant of, nor unappreciative of, “the cross.” That is a very unfair judgment of us. Talk about “insulting someone’s intelligence” (not to mention spirituality!!) We simply disagree with your application of scripture on this particular subject. It does not make us less of Christian than you.

I am disappointed – but not surprised – that you refused to read the “same old, same old” scriptures I offered in my last post, but hopefully others have and will.

Prosperity is just one side (albeit the bright side) of a two-sided coin.

\o/

 

[PottersClay]

8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.
​

The key words here are suffiency and good work.

• Sufficiency does not mean abundance. It means having enough to meet your needs. (our culture has made us forget the only true needs we have are food and shelter)
• Good works is the goal here, not to simply have abundance. The abundance is merely a means to do the good works.

9 As it is written, "He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever."

10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.
​

The keys here are seed for sowing, generosity (implied by verse 9) and righteousness.

• the promise of multiplication of seed for sowing was clearly understood in that culture. They did not consider the seed meant for sowing as something that was "theirs". It was a tool.
• A generous heart has been established in verse 9, and it is understood that the multiplied seed will be shared with the poor.
  
• the only increase promised here is a harvest of righteousness, not something material.

11 You will be enriched in every way for all your generosity, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God.
​

This is the only verse that could be construed as resulting in material prosperity, but those these verses are spoken to are those with a proven generous spirit, that see their responsiblity to share with the poor and needy. Those are the rare individuals who the Lord can trust to pass millions through their hands and know they have the understanding that they are mere stewards of everthing they have.

 

[Theophilus7]

Like other pastors, I have had to bail people out of financial woes because they bought the prosperity doctrine and overspent, fully expecting God to come to their rescue, because they just knew He wanted them to prosper and live in a new two-story, 5,000 sq.ft. home and drive a Lexus although she was a stay-at-home Mom and he was a firsentrance-level warehouseman. Not surprisingly, it was not their favorite prosperity TV-preacher that bailed them out, the one to whom they had sent tons of “seed” money – it was left to our struggling little church to come to their rescue. We cleaned up the mess left behind by their prosperity guru, who enjoyed the rewards of their devotion but did not accept the responsibility of his flawed doctrine. Sadly, though, we only prolonged the inevitable. The misled little family eventually filed bankruptcy and became among the disillusioned ex-prosperity believers that I meet all the time.

All very sad, JimB, but not really relevant to the exegesis of the verse mentioned in the post, and not very logical. The different vices and spiritual abuses of many 'Christians' in the Church does not prove to me that their religion is 'mere hypocrisy and convention', and the fact that there are some who take the "prosperity message" to an ungodly extreme tells me precisely nothing about God's will for my finances.