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Anna Scott: Are you doing away with the concept of eternal separation from God for the unredeemed? What then did the "Saviour" come to do?
Consider again Romans 9 which shouts out that it is only by Sovereign mercy that any one of us has a chance. You have bought the very human line that things go better with Christ. In fact all is darkness without Him. Tough pill. Tough Boss God. Unless you trust in what He has said and demonstrated through the Cross. Then grace is free and glorious, and your family likeness grows.
This great intersection of justice and mercy is clearly illustrated in Psalm 85.
We needn't hear what You think God should do in order to be fair...Doug
I don't often post here. But I found the link to this thread and followed it. Though I did not read the 900+ posts, I read many of them. There seems to be a great variety of view concerning the parable of the 'Rich man'. But just for a moment, I want for you to consider what it might mean if the parable was actually based in fact and on real life events, as so many of the Master's parables where. This is made manifest in His explanations to His disciples.
Most consider Luke a gentile, though it is not specified in scripture, only surmised from various interpretations of places and events. Please receive what is offered in the spirit in which it is given; an attempt to apply context to these difficult matters so that alternative conclusions might be made.
As to the matter of Luke being a Gentile, a Proselyte (translated in the Septuagint as 'stranger' in English) or a Jew; this is far from a settled matter. But I have a hard time believing that a Gentile or a Proselyte knew so much about the matters of the Sadducees (the Aaronic priests) that many believe his book was an indictment leveled at them as a group. I'm just sayin'...
There was a long established Jewish community in Antioch at that time of Luke's birth and upbringing. I have no problem believing that Luke was a natural Greek speaking Jew with a higher education (have you met Luke, my son the doctor?). That certainly isn't beyond the bounds of logic or the historical record. But I digress. Let me see if I can connect the dots so that you can see where I am coming from.
Many believe that the first portion of the Book of Luke was a Messianic account addressed to Theophilus (son of Annas and brother-in-law of Caiaphas), the Cohen Gadol in Jerusalem from 37-41. There were six total of this group of direct descendants and in-laws that kept the control of the priestly service. These 'brothers' kept control of the wealth of Israel 'in the family' for many years.
One story goes that 'Lazarus and the Rich Man' (and the Rich Man's 5 'brothers' that still lived), was a parable and a prophecy by the Messiah, about the family that continuously controlled the High Priest 'concession' awarded by Rome. Re-read Luke 16:19-31 with this in mind and tell me what you think, OK? Perhaps Luke was trying to convince the 'Zadokim' (Sadducees) that there was more to the spirit world and the resurrection that they were wiling to publicly concede.
If Luke was a 'stranger' as some surmise, he risked much by chastening the Cohen Gadol in a written document; a letter that was obviously circulated publicly at one point. But as a Jew with a pedigree and a claim in the land, his rights were different under 'the Law' (at least the way they interpreted it). Something to consider, but that isn't all. Luke's bona fides as a blood-born Jew and advocate of a resurrected Messiah would certainly seem less treasonous to the Cohen Gadol (High Priest). Luke would just be another Pharisee disciple of Messiah like Nicdemus and Joseph.
But, consider what Luke proposed in the first few stories. He confirmed the widely held, miraculous conception of a well known prophet by a Zadokim (Cohen or Priest). He then went on to link the conception of the Messiah to this account, making Y'shua not only a 'Son of David' but son of the daughter of a Cohen too. He prominently mentions that this occurred in the 6th month (of Elishabeth's pregnancy as some suppose, but also of the months of the Moed; in the traditional seasons of observance and the Appointed times of YHVH) and concluding with Mary being pregnant by the time she went to stay with her cousin. [This would have been in the 7th month if my supposition bears out...]
If blood-born Jew and an educated, natural Greek speaking Asian truly was Luke's pedigree, background and perspective, it makes his account of Zacharius and Elishabeth, the annunciation of the Messiah in the '6th month' (or season of teshuvah), and the prospect of the conception of the Messiah on Yom Teruah (the feast of Trumpets) compelling. This too especially after going on later to relate a prophecy about the potential damnation of Theophilus and his brethren (Lazarus and the Rich man) in such close proximity and relation to the birth account of John the Baptist (a Cohen prophet), the Annunciation and conception of the Messiah and the verifiable account of an actual resurrection of the dead (that of Lazurus, as all births and deaths were reported to and recorded by the Temple priests).
Just something to consider...
Cover your ears.
Act 7:
51 "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears!
Ye always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord;
58 and they cast [him] out of the city and stoned [him]. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on [God] and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
I was not mentioned in the Chronicle newspaper in the entirety of my youth. What is your point? That has not kept some from speculating about my heritage!luke was not mentioned with the jews in col 4.
I was not mentioned in the Chronicle newspaper in the entirety of my youth. What is your point? That has not kept some from speculating about my heritage!
Many have commented on Luke's status. What does Col 4 have to do with anything?
Good point.I was not mentioned in the Chronicle newspaper in the entirety of my youth. What is your point? That has not kept some from speculating about my heritage!
Many have commented on Luke's status. What does Col 4 have to do with anything?
Hey Froggy,it's a minority view, that luke was a jew, col 4 puts luke in with gentiles..
i think it's great that a gentile wrote 2 bible books..
and wow! does he ever offer alot of paul support also...
Hey Froggy,
"col 4 puts luke in with gentiles"
How so? Is is definitive or supposition? Please be specific. I'd like to know your view.
Even if Luke were a gentile or a proselyte, what do you take away from my post? Or are you just dismissing it out-of-hand? Thanks.
u can't prove he was a jew, where col 4 shows he was not, and besides, lets repsect lloj, and stay on topic.
Col 4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.
Did you really have to quote that member's whole post just to say that?!luke was not mentioned with the jews in col 4.
Maybe he has a frog in his throat?Did you really have to quote that member's whole post just to say that?!
Thanks Rick, that was scary.Awright, knock it off! This is GT people,... we have a reputation to protect. Somebody say something argumentative about the topic, stat!
I haven't read the rest of your post yet so I don't know where you're going with this, but parables are typicaly based in material facts, but their point is not entirely fact dependant, being spiritual. And we can subtract any dewy eyed mysticism about the facts of spirit (or at least keep it in perspective) by remembering "spirit" can mean "attitude" & that the immaterial facts about spirit are completely "real life" phenomena.quote=talmidim;I don't often post here. But I found the link to this thread and followed it. Though I did not read the 900+ posts, I read many of them. There seems to be a great variety of view concerning the parable of the 'Rich man'. But just for a moment, I want for you to consider what it might mean if the parable was actually based in fact and on real life events, as so many of the Master's parables where. This is made manifest in His explanations to His disciples.
A most reasonable proposal.Most consider Luke a gentile, though it is not specified in scripture, only surmised from various interpretations of places and events. Please receive what is offered in the spirit in which it is given; an attempt to apply context to these difficult matters so that alternative conclusions might be made.
Just say then, that an educated (physician?) resident in Jerusalem would have ready access to the opinions on religious/social issues of his neighbors & business clientele, & might even has opinions of his own,... but do go on...As to the matter of Luke being a Gentile, a Proselyte (translated in the Septuagint as 'stranger' in English) or a Jew; this is far from a settled matter. But I have a hard time believing that a Gentile or a Proselyte knew so much about the matters of the Sadducees (the Aaronic priests) that many believe his book was an indictment leveled at them as a group. I'm just sayin'...
I'm down wid dat.There was a long established Jewish community in Antioch at that time of Luke's birth and upbringing. I have no problem believing that Luke was a natural Greek speaking Jew with a higher education (have you met Luke, my son the doctor?). That certainly isn't beyond the bounds of logic or the historical record. But I digress. Let me see if I can connect the dots so that you can see where I am coming from.
That would be typical. Entirely predictable.Many believe that the first portion of the Book of Luke was a Messianic account addressed to Theophilus (son of Annas and brother-in-law of Caiaphas), the Cohen Gadol in Jerusalem from 37-41. There were six total of this group of direct descendants and in-laws that kept the control of the priestly service. These 'brothers' kept control of the wealth of Israel 'in the family' for many years.
I may not be informed enough to intelligently comment. I was unaware of Rome's input on & the facts regarding said concession.One story goes that 'Lazarus and the Rich Man' (and the Rich Man's 5 'brothers' that still lived), was a parable and a prophecy by the Messiah, about the family that continuously controlled the High Priest 'concession' awarded by Rome. Re-read Luke 16:19-31 with this in mind and tell me what you think, OK? Perhaps Luke was trying to convince the 'Zadokim' (Sadducees) that there was more to the spirit world and the resurrection that they were wiling to publicly concede.
It's a plausable possibility.If Luke was a 'stranger' as some surmise, he risked much by chastening the Cohen Gadol in a written document; a letter that was obviously circulated publicly at one point. But as a Jew with a pedigree and a claim in the land, his rights were different under 'the Law' (at least the way they interpreted it). Something to consider, but that isn't all. Luke's bona fides as a blood-born Jew and advocate of a resurrected Messiah would certainly seem less treasonous to the Cohen Gadol (High Priest). Luke would just be another Pharisee disciple of Messiah like Nicdemus and Joseph.
Blood cousin, or cousin by marriage? Perhaps that's a modern terminology bias on my part along with an ignorance of any other evidence. Is grandson of a Cohen, Levite enough for service?But, consider what Luke proposed in the first few stories. He confirmed the widely held, miraculous conception of a well known prophet by a Zadokim (Cohen or Priest). He then went on to link the conception of the Messiah to this account, making Y'shua not only a 'Son of David' but son of the daughter of a Cohen too. He prominently mentions that this occurred in the 6th month (of Elishabeth's pregnancy as some suppose, but also of the months of the Moed; in the traditional seasons of observance and the Appointed times of YHVH) and concluding with Mary being pregnant by the time she went to stay with her cousin. [This would have been in the 7th month if my supposition bears out...]
I would agree. Thematic continuity is present in that scenario as far as I can tell.If blood-born Jew and an educated, natural Greek speaking Asian truly was Luke's pedigree, background and perspective, it makes his account of Zacharius and Elishabeth, the annunciation of the Messiah in the '6th month' (or season of teshuvah), and the prospect of the conception of the Messiah on Yom Teruah (the feast of Trumpets) compelling.
THAT'S JUST cRaZy TALK!This too especially after going on later to relate a prophecy about the potential damnation of Theophilus and his brethren (Lazarus and the Rich man) in such close proximity and relation to the birth account of John the Baptist (a Cohen prophet), the Annunciation and conception of the Messiah and the verifiable account of an actual resurrection of the dead (that of Lazurus, as all births and deaths were reported to and recorded by the Temple priests). Just something to consider...
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