Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

brinny · Dec 29, 2011

Amaaaazing! i just read John 12:9-11

"Then much people of the Jews knew that he was there; and they came, not for
Jesus’ sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from
the dead. The high Priests therefore consulted, that they might put Lazarus to death
also, Because that for his sake many of the Jews went away, and believed in Jesus."

Good grief, Lazarus traveled WITH Jesus, and was a living, breathing TESTIMONY to Jesus, and WHO He was. News must've spread like wildfire after Jesus raised him from the dead.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2011

Timothew said:
I'm confused by the tranliterated greek. The terminal sigma is represented by V? Why?

Also tiV doesn't just mean "certain" it can mean "someone" or "who" or "which", it's used in a lot of different ways depending on the context.

That is where an interlinear comes in handy me thinks

http://www.greeknewtestament.com/index.htm

Interlinear (tr) NT) Luke 16:19 | anqrwpoV <444> de <1161> {NOW A MAN} tiV <5100> {CERTAIN} hn <2258> (5713) {THERE WAS} plousioV <4145> {RICH,}

Last time that form of the greek word used in NT

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Young) Revelation 22:19 and if any-one/tiV <5100> may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life,
And out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'

5100. tis tis an enclitic indefinite pronoun; some or any person or object:--a (kind of), any (man, thing, thing at all), certain (thing), divers, he (every) man, one (X thing), ought, + partly, some (man, -body, - thing, -what), (+ that no-)thing, what(-soever), X wherewith, whom(-soever), whose(-soever).

Timothew · Dec 29, 2011

I agree, but isn't the best thing spending the time in the greek NT, getting a feel for how these words are used in various contexts? As to the alpha-bet, it only takes about a week to get used to it. Why don't you come all the way into greek?

This site helps:
John 1 Greek NT: Westcott / Hort, UBS4 Variants with Diacritics and Concordance

I started in John, one letter at a time. Then one word at a time, then a verse, until I could read a chapter a day in greek. I use all the help I can get.

98cwitr · Dec 29, 2011

Timothew said:
That seems like circular reasoning to me. The question is "Is the story of Lazarus and the rich man a parable or not?" If it is not a parable, then you might be correct in stating that no parables have specific persons mentioned. If it is a parable, then you would be incorrect in stating that no parables have specific persons mentioned.

So the "No names rule" can't really be applied until after it is determined whether or not this is a parable. I believe it is a parable, because if it is a true account of hell it contradicts so many other passages in the bible. We know that Jesus taught using parables, so it is not difficult to think that this is also a parable.

There's no way to determine unless the Holy Spirit tells you then...because this thread is circular too.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2011

98cwitr said:
There's no way to determine unless the Holy Spirit tells you then...because this thread is circular too.

From what I have read on this site, the ancient Hebrews also viewed time as circular

Ancient Hebrew Research Center - Home Page

About the Ancient Hebrew Culture

If the timeline above for the span of the earth and man is bent back onto itself we create a circle of time.
With a circular view of time our perspective on the beginning and end of the earth and man change. No longer is the beginning the beginning and the end the end, but a continual cycle of beginnings and endings. While this view of time is contrary to our western way of thinking, it is consistent with other views from other cultures. The ancient Hebrews of the Bible and the people of the orient have always understood time, the past, present and future, as circular.

brinny · Dec 29, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
From what I have read on this site, the ancient Hebrews also viewed time as circular

Ancient Hebrew Research Center - Home Page

About the Ancient Hebrew Culture

If the timeline above for the span of the earth and man is bent back onto itself we create a circle of time.
With a circular view of time our perspective on the beginning and end of the earth and man change. No longer is the beginning the beginning and the end the end, but a continual cycle of beginnings and endings. While this view of time is contrary to our western way of thinking, it is consistent with other views from other cultures. The ancient Hebrews of the Bible and the people of the orient have always understood time, the past, present and future, as circular.

kinda reminds me of the term "coming full circle"

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2011

brinny said:
kinda reminds me of the term "coming full circle"

That is why ferris wheels, merry go rounds and hoola hoops were invented

http://www.christianforums.com/t7435928-7/#post54019121

Hudsucker Proxy, The (1994) Scene - YouTube

Timothew · Dec 29, 2011

98cwitr said:
There's no way to determine unless the Holy Spirit tells you then...because this thread is circular too.

I guess if you really WANT the parable to be a fact account of the condition in Hell (actually Hades), then it's not a parable.

Otherwise, it doesn't really matter. The lesson of the story cannot be that people live forever in hell fire torment after they die, because that would contradict all of the rest of scripture. Romans 6:23, 2 Thess 1:9, John 3:16, Rev 20:14, James 1:15, Hebrews 12:29, 1 Peter 1:23-25, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 5:11-13, Jude 7, 11 (all of Jude), Genesis (you will surely die), really too many passages to mention. Ezekiel 18

heymikey80 · Dec 29, 2011

How about simply a moral story, not particularly a parable?

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2011

heymikey80 said:
How about simply a moral story, not particularly a parable?

I can hang wit dat

98cwitr · Dec 29, 2011

Timothew said:
I guess if you really WANT the parable to be a fact account of the condition in Hell (actually Hades), then it's not a parable.

Otherwise, it doesn't really matter. The lesson of the story cannot be that people live forever in hell fire torment after they die, because that would contradict all of the rest of scripture. Romans 6:23, 2 Thess 1:9, John 3:16, Rev 20:14, James 1:15, Hebrews 12:29, 1 Peter 1:23-25, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 5:11-13, Jude 7, 11 (all of Jude), Genesis (you will surely die), really too many passages to mention. Ezekiel 18

The fallacy in your logic is that death = non-existence, which isn't true.

Read Jude 1

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2011

98cwitr said:
The fallacy in your logic is that death = non-existence, which isn't true.

Read Jude 1

Why not define that more for us

brinny · Dec 29, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
That is why ferris wheels, merry go rounds and hoola hoops were invented

http://www.christianforums.com/t7435928-7/#post54019121

Hudsucker Proxy, The (1994) Scene - YouTube

Hahahaaaaa!

98cwitr · Dec 29, 2011

Specifically:

7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Timothew · Dec 29, 2011

98cwitr said:
The fallacy in your logic is that death = non-existence, which isn't true.

Read Jude 1

Death doesn't mean "not-dead" does it? Dead doesn't mean "alive and conscious." Death doesn't mean "able to acutely feel all of the flames of hell."

The fallacy in your logic is that death = alive in hell, which isn't true.

Timothew · Dec 29, 2011

98cwitr said:
Specifically:

7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed. You kow this. The example of the punishment is destruction, not eternal torment.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 29, 2011

Lion King said:
Where did you get the stuff about the faiths of the rich man and Lazarus? I believe it wasn't mentioned.

Yes it is mentioned, from where they ended up, and the Word of God they had which they either believed, or did not believe, to end up where they were -simple, really

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2011

yeshuasavedme said:
Yes it is mentioned, from where they ended up, and the Word of God they had which they either believed, or did not believe, to end up where they were -simple, really

If only that were true

yeshuasavedme · Dec 29, 2011

Timothew said:
Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed. You kow this. The example of the punishment is destruction, not eternal torment.

No place in the Word of God does destruction mean annihilation. Matter is eternal, since the beginning, but the state of matter can be changed.
In the case of "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished", the system was brought to ruin, and a new beginning was started with Noah and those on the Ark. Nothing was annihilated of the perished world, but the state of its existence changed.

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

In the case of the wicked dead and the demons who are tormented forever in the Lake of Fire [the domain and kingdom of the Satans, where their eternal food is to torment and afflict the souls of the demons, the fallen angels, and the unrepentant wicked of Adam who are cast there body and soul], they are not annihialated, but ruined, perished, for the purpose they were made for, and the undying worms there are the wicked in Adam who get their own bodies back [or are cast alive into that place at the return of Jesus to reign, without dying], but those bodies are minus the Adam spirit, and they can never hope for metamorphosis into the image of the sons of God. It is finished, and their doom is sealed by their own deeds done in their own body, without repentance of them.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 29, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
If only that were true

What is not true, about that?

Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Conditionalist

Lord forgive me

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Conditionalist

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Lord forgive me

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

Lord forgive me

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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