Rhyming hymns and watered down theology

Fantine said:

But people come to Church to lift their hearts to God, and they sing to express the primary purpose of music--form, harmony, and expression of emotion.

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But what about the songs that really are in opposition to our Catholic theology? (Either that the songs actually portray Protestant theology instead of Catholic beliefs or that they are just sort of secular in nature?)

MKJ said:

I think that you need to distinguish different purposes and genres of music. Chant is pretty much a way to put text that is not versified to music so that it can be more easily remembered and also louder. There are some limits to what you can do with chant - some things sound better and are easier to say than others, but to a large degree there is a great amount of freedom with the text as far as form. (Mind you, a good liturgical text IMO requires something of a poetic heart to it.) So that is why chant is really a good choice for the bulk of the liturgy.

Then there are hymns which are not in chant, and have more the form of songs or formal poems. These are much more restricted in their form. What that means depends on the poetic tradition and the language. In some languages it means a particular pattern of syllables or emphasis, or it can mean similarities in sound or rhymes. This varies considerably by language, and it can be difficult to translate form from one language to another - the different language structures may make the poetry of one language meaningless in another. Not to mention the difficulties of translating meaning and form.

So, just because you don't hear a rhyme in hymns in another language doesn't mean it isn't following a strict poetic format. In Latin for example rhyming is less important and the pattern of stresses and syllables is more important - it is also very difficult for the English speaker to even hear or notice. I had to take three years of Latin for my degree, and I was never able to "hear" Latin poetry, even though I could parse it out of a
sentence. The psalms also use poetic forms, just not rhyming ones. And in a translated poem the translator may not have been able to keep to the poetic form at all, or he may have chosen to translate into an English form.

What are the advantage of such poems over chant? If they are well done, they are easier for most people to sing, and verse is even easier to remember than chanted pieces. This can be especially good for parts of the liturgy that change every week.

But as far as the question of whether being committed to a particular form ends up in watered down theology. If you asked Shakespeare, do you think he would say using a sonnet meant that the meaning he was trying to communicate less clear? I don't think so. Poets use strict forms because they find they acttually make the meaning more clear, more distilled, and more beautiful. By having boundries the poet must be incredibly precisie, and that is also true of theological poetry.

The problem with much of the modern religious music is not that rhyming or other poetic forms lead to bad theology - it is that it is lyrics composed by poor poets who are poor theologians, and often times poor musicians too. So we end up with meaningless or even heretical drivel that is hard to sing and hard to remember.

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Very well said.
In Latin, they don't use rhyme to give emphasis to a phrase - germanic languages often use rhyme where Latin uses metre and other things like allitteration. It's very structured, very formal even if it doesn't rhyme (the same can be said for certain modern poems - non-rhyming yet not at all "free verse"). So it's a cultural/language difference. In Gregorian there is little variation in the melody which also functions as a means to memorize it better.

I love Latin and I love the vernacular. They're not at war. It's not either/or.

One of my favorites in the vernacular is St Francis song 'Make me a channel of your peace'.

Its theology through and through.

Make Me A Channel Of Your Peace

Francis of Assisi
Italy
1182 – 1226
[SIZE=+1] Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
...where there is injury, pardon;
...where there is doubt, faith;
...where there is despair, hope;
...where there is darkness, light;
...where there is sadness, joy;

O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
...to be consoled as to console;
...to be understood as to understand;
...to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive;
...it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
...and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
[/SIZE]

But theology counts and is the reason that songs are uplifting (if they are). However, some songs are poor theology and if the theology is wrong, no matter how rhyming, or how "toe tapping" the songs don't belong in Liturgy--they aren't uplifting.

For instance:

How about "I Am the Bread of Life" or "The Bread We Share"?--I thought we believed that Jesus was the Bread of Life, not us, but not according to the song;

"Ashes"--since when do we believe in reincarnation?;

Then there's "Anthem"--if all human beings are creed, then we're in trouble and I know I wasn't born in a stable and my name isn't "Jesus Christ";

How about the songs where we simply forget about God and sing about how great *we* are (and how God is lucky to have us) ?;

"Gather Us In"--are we dissing just the church buildings or the afterlife too?;

Gotta love "Lord of the Dance". It's a catchy tune. It rhymes at times. But whenever we get to "It's hard to dance with the devil on your back", I'm thinking "what?".

I probably could go on, and I know there are some songs with Protestant, not Catholic theology (why is that? and why don't we think that will matter?), but my point is that theology counts and not just catchy tunes.

There are some Baptist songs that are not theologically correct for Catholics.

"Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?"
"The blood will never lose its power"
"Nothing but the blood of Jesus..."

Besides being theologically incorrect, they are just downright icky! I can't imagine that the visions they evoke (washing in blood) don't make most people a little ill...

So yes, compared to that, Catholic music is great, even that ode filled with dangling participles and grammatical malapropisms, "Gift of finest wheat."

Isn't washing in the blood of the lamb right out of scripture?

Fantine said:

Four metaphors. Lots of adjectives.

"Striving still to truth unknown" doesn't sound that doctrinaire to me...instead it speaks of man's search for truth within his own heart and soul (as supposed to the pages of a catechism, for example.)

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Metaphor is part of religious teaching, as is the significance of events. The birth of Christ is happy because it is important.

Jesu, joy of man's desiring
Holy wisdom, love most bright

This has quite a lot of religious significance in it. Why is Jesus the joy of man's desiring? This immediatly makes me think of the opening of Augustin's Confessions, which asks the very same question - the answer is that God made man to love and worship him, that is why we always seek for him. God is all wisdom, the source of all illumination physical or intellectual, and all good things, and the only place we will rest finally is in him. We are not to separate these things from their source, or we will be disatisfied.

Drawn by Thee, our souls aspiring
Soar to uncreated light

This is about the nature of grace, and again harkens to the beginning of the Confessions. It is because we are made by God, for God that we are inborn with this desire for him, and it is through God's gifts that we move closer to him. And of course God, who created all good things, is himself the uncreated good.

Word of God, our flesh that fashioned
With the fire of life impassioned
Striving still to truth unknown
Soaring, dying round Thy throne

So here is some Trinitarian theology, the Word is the one that created us in this way, for love. Not just our soul, as some pagans believed, but our flesh and bodies. And again the Augustinian theme (not suprising from a Lutheran) that we desire to move even closer to God before we even know him. Also possibly it may be a reference to the idea that God in himself is above knowing, and can never be known in that way.

The soaring dying round thy throne is I believe a reference to Revelation, and so I think to the everlasting worship that goes on there where we are united in love to the Word, the ultimately unknowable Father, and also the rest of the heavely host. And as Anselm tells us, in that state love multiplies love until it is beyond all knowing or counting itself. So this is the logical conclusion of the earlier lines about desiring God because he has implanted love of him within us.

The music supports that idea of union in its joyfulness. I would not be surprised if it supports it in the structure of the music itself as Bach was big on that, but I don't have enough musical knowledge to know.

But in any case, it seems pretty theological to me.

MKJ said:

Isn't washing in the blood of the lamb right out of scripture?

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I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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Revelation 7:14

I don't know of a single Catholic scholar or clergyman who interprets Revelation literally.

And in this case, I heartily second the motion.

All this preoccupation about being washed in the blood would, I'm sure, provide ample fodder for psychologists.

Yes "washing in the blood of the Lamb" is from Scripture. And I seem to recall a sign on a Confessional in the 1970s that referred to how the forgiven "wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb" and it mentioned that now those robes are "whiter than snow". Anyway it goes to show that it's not a matter of interpreting Revelation literally. It's poetry and reality at the same time! We are forgiven because Jesus died for us (Jesus gave His blood for us.)

IMO it's just like the theology of that song, "Look beyond the Bread you eat. See your Savior and your Lord".

Without His death [blood] we would not be spotless - ie - forgiven.
Through His death and Resurrection we have forgiveness and we are washed white from sin which darkened the soul.

AMDG said:

How about "I Am the Bread of Life" ... I thought we believed that Jesus was the Bread of Life, not us, but not according to the song;

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the song is saying Jesus is the bread of life, but by singing his words in the first person. It's not trying to say that the singer is.




"Ashes"--since when do we believe in reincarnation?;

Fantine said:

Revelation 7:14

I don't know of a single Catholic scholar or clergyman who interprets Revelation literally.

And in this case, I heartily second the motion.

All this preoccupation about being washed in the blood would, I'm sure, provide ample fodder for psychologists.

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Usually Biblical images are considered ok material, including from Revelation. That's why we sing Holy Holy Holy, or talk about Christ as a lamb, or there are hymns with references to the crystal fountain and many others things from those books.

And in art we see those references as well, the four animals are depicted for example, though obviously we don't really think St John was a bird.

It's true they are not quite understood literally, but we can also understand the hymns that in the same way we understand the Scriptural passages.

MKJ said:

Usually Biblical images are considered ok material, including from Revelation. That's why we sing Holy Holy Holy, or talk about Christ as a lamb, or there are hymns with references to the crystal fountain and many others things from those books.

And in art we see those references as well, the four animals are depicted for example, though obviously we don't really think St John was a bird.

It's true they are not quite understood literally, but we can also understand the hymns that in the same way we understand the Scriptural passages.

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Nevertheless, the images that are portrayed in a song like "Are You Washed in the Blood of the Lamb?" are primitive, distasteful, and disturbing--three reasons why that particular hymn is on my "least favorite" list.

I personally don't have a problem with the idea of being washed in the Blood of the Lamb... I mean, we do eat and drink His Body and Blood though of course in substance not accidents.

But I was looking around for lyrics from the songs AMDG posted about, and found some with really questionable theology.. such as 'Ashes' or 'Anthem' or even 'Lord of the Dance' which I admit I don't understand. Then there is "Gather us in" which seems to speak against churches and Heaven.

Maybe it's just me... but all the emphasis on dancing, singing to mountains & seas, gathering together, rising from the ashes, feeling good about ourselves, and also some of the melodies - there's just something about it that doesn't seem suited for the Sacrifice of the Mass. It's too "us" centered. I don't want to just criticize. But some of the songs either sound theologically shallow or borderline new agey. I get what they were trying to do, I just don't know if I see it the same way. If we were singing about mountains or seas to honour God as Creator, that would be different... the only songs about "us" that seem appropriate are ones that work as reminders, for example the Prayer of St Francis ("Make me a channel of Your peace..") and that's because it is actually challenging and teaches an important point.

Then I looked up some English translations of Latin chants......

1. O Virgin Mother of God,
He Whom the whole world does not contain,
enclosed Himself in thy womb,
being made man.
2. True faith in thy begotten Son
has cast out the sins of the world,
and for thee virginity
remains inviolate.
3. Thou art the Mother of divine love,
Thou the aiding power the world cries out to:
come in aid, O blessed one,
to thy servants.
4. Great glory be to the Father,
equal glory to the Son,
great glory to God the Holy Spirit.
Amen.

Obviously it flows better in Latin. But it actually has theology and beauty to it.

Or this English from Latin translation:

1. O Heart, Thou ark containing the Law, not of the old servitude,
but of grace, and indulgence, and also of mercy.
2. O Heart, Thou spotless sanctuary of the new covenant,
Thou Temple, holier than the ancient one, And Veil, more profitable than that torn of old.
3. Charity willed Thee to be wounded; by the spear thrust opened,
that we might venerate the wounds of an invisible love.
4. Under this symbol of love, having suffered bloody and mystical torments,
Christ the Priest offered each in sacrifice.
5. Who would not love in turn the One so loving him? Who, being thus redeemed, would not love,
and choose eternal dwellings in this Heart?
6. O Jesus, to Thee be glory, Who pourest grace from Thy heart,
with the Father and the loving Spirit unto everlasting ages.
Amen.

If people were to say or sing this wouldn't it help them to obtain conversion? it's also a great reminder of the Sacred Heart devotion.

There's nothing in those songs about us except that we need to turn to Jesus and Mary.

MoNiCa4316 said:

I personally don't have a problem with the idea of being washed in the Blood of the Lamb... I mean, we do eat and drink His Body and Blood though of course in substance not accidents.

But I was looking around for lyrics from the songs AMDG posted about, and found some with really questionable theology.. such as 'Ashes' or 'Anthem' or even 'Lord of the Dance' which I admit I don't understand. Then there is "Gather us in" which seems to critique churches and Heaven.

Maybe it's just me... but all the emphasis on dancing, singing to mountains & seas, gathering together, rising from the ashes, feeling good about ourselves, and also some of the melodies - there's just something about it that doesn't seem suited for the Sacrifice of the Mass. It's too "us" centered. I don't want to just criticize. But some of the songs either sound theologically shallow or borderline new agey. I get what they were trying to do, I just don't know if I see it the same way. If we were singing about mountains or seas to honour God as Creator, that would be different...

Then I looked up some English translations of Latin chants......

1. O Virgin Mother of God,
He Whom the whole world does not contain,
enclosed Himself in thy womb,
being made man.
2. True faith in thy begotten Son
has cast out the sins of the world,
and for thee virginity
remains inviolate.
3. Thou art the Mother of divine love,
Thou the aiding power the world cries out to:
come in aid, O blessed one,
to thy servants.
4. Great glory be to the Father,
equal glory to the Son,
great glory to God the Holy Spirit.
Amen.

Obviously it flows better in Latin. But it actually has theology and beauty to it.

Or this English from Latin translation:

1. O Heart, Thou ark containing the Law, not of the old servitude,
but of grace, and indulgence, and also of mercy.
2. O Heart, Thou spotless sanctuary of the new covenant,
Thou Temple, holier than the ancient one, And Veil, more profitable than that torn of old.
3. Charity willed Thee to be wounded; by the spear thrust opened,
that we might venerate the wounds of an invisible love.
4. Under this symbol of love, having suffered bloody and mystical torments,
Christ the Priest offered each in sacrifice.
5. Who would not love in turn the One so loving him? Who, being thus redeemed, would not love,
and choose eternal dwellings in this Heart?
6. O Jesus, to Thee be glory, Who pourest grace from Thy heart,
with the Father and the loving Spirit unto everlasting ages.
Amen.

If people were to say or sing this wouldn't it help them to obtain conversion?

There's nothing in those songs about us except that we need to turn to Jesus and Mary.

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Lord of the Dance is wonderful. Lively, figurative, the gospel narrative in one song, ....

What's "ashes"?

Then there's this old hymn...

1. Jesus, the very thought of Thee,
With sweetness fills my breast;
But sweeter far Thy Face to see
And in Thy presence rest.
2. Nor voice can sing, nor heart can frame,
Nor can the memory find
A sweeter sound than Thy blest Name,
O Saviour of mankind!
3. O Hope of every contrite heart,
O joy of all the meek,
To those who fall, how kind Thou art,
How good to those who seek.
4. My tongue and words cannot express,
Their usefulness is low
But having felt is to believe,
sweet Jesus' love to know.
5. Jesus, our only joy be Thou,
As Thou our prize wilt be;
O Jesus, be our glory now
And through eternity.
Amen.

It's not often that we hear a hymn simply about loving Jesus. The only one I can think of is the one about wanting to wear Jesus' crown - I forget what it's called, it seems like a contemporary hymn but it's not bad. It would be good to have more like these.

ebia said:

Lord of the Dance is wonderful. Lively, figurative, the gospel narrative in one song, ....

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I just don't understand Lord of the Dance... I guess I just never think of the Gospel narrative as a dance.

What's "ashes"?

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We rise again from ashes,
from the good we've failed to do.
We rise again from ashes,
to create ourselves anew.
If all our world is ashes,
then must our lives be true,
An offering of ashes,
An offering to You. --> -->

We offer You our failures,
we offer You attempts;
The gifts not fully given,
the dreams not fully dreamt.
Give our stumblings direction,
give our visions wider view,
An offering of ashes,
An offering to You. --> -->

Then rise again from ashes,
let healing come to pain;
Though spring has turned to winter,
and sunshine turned to rain.
The rain we'll use for growing,
and create the world anew,
From an offering of ashes,
An offering to You. --> -->

... Thanks be to the Father,
who made us like Himself.
... Thanks be to His Son,
who saved us by His death.
... Thanks be to the Spirit,
who creates the world anew,
From an offering of ashes,
An offering to You.

There are some good points in the song, but the part "to create ourselves anew" sounds wrong. We don't create ourselves anew. I'm also not sure about the part about dreams not fully dreamt, - I mean it would make sense for this hymn to talk about repentance, but we repent for offending God not for not being "the best we can be". That makes it sound more secular.

the last part isn't bad though.

Hmm. 's not wonderful but it's not that bad.

We do repent because we failed to be what we should be; failed to be his image in and for the world. The language is on the "accessible" side, and it's not clear why they choose rising from ashes as the metaphor to use, but at least it says something vaguely substantial. The "create ourselves..." could use a rework, but there is a sense in which we need to work at becoming, and developing our virtues, that is easily lost (esp. In the evangelical world).

It does need to be remembered that a hymn (or even a theological paper) can't say everything that ought to be said on any given point.

MoNiCa4316 said:

I just don't understand Lord of the Dance... I guess I just never think of the Gospel narrative as a dance.

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if we are talking about hymns being pedagogical though, we ought to welcome ones that challenge us to think about things in fresh ways.

ebia said:

Hmm. 's not wonderful but it's not that bad.

We do repent because we failed to be what we should be; failed to be his image in and for the world. The language is on the "accessible" side, and it's not clear why they choose rising from ashes as the metaphor to use, but at least it says something vaguely substantial. The "create ourselves..." could use a rework, but there is a sense in which we need to work at becoming, and developing our virtues, that is easily lost (esp. In the evangelical world).

It does need to be remembered that a hymn (or even a theological paper) can't say everything that ought to be said on any given point.

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that is true.. the question is if hymns should be 'accessible' or not. If yes, how accessible, and to whom? If the average Catholic is not well catechized, wouldn't the hymns only keep them uncatechized? Should hymns be accessible to us or help us to reach deeper concepts? It doesn't even have to be very theological, but for example encouraging people to be thankful for the Eucharist (as in Christ being present, not just being thankful for a meal shared with others), or to think about Christ's suffering, etc.

ebia said:

if we are talking about hymns being pedagogical though, we ought to welcome ones that challenge us to think about things in fresh ways.

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then I think it depends if the ways are helpful or not. I dont know if you find the Lord of the Dance helpful, - it doesn't seem to communicate to me. I dont know. Maybe it's different for different people.