Revelation: Literal vs. Figurative

[mark kennedy]

This one is mainly just for fun but there are a couple of serious questions open for discussion. My issue here is how and what should be taken literally and what should be understood as metaphors of some kind. The book is the Revelation, here is an abbreviated outline:

1) The Revelation (Parousia)
2) 7 Letters to the Seven Churches.
3) 7 Letters continued.
4) 7 Lamps of fire (Menorah).
5) 7 Seals to be opened by the Lamb
6) Seals opened, S-1 (Seal One) thru S-5
7) The 144,000 sealed, the world hides from the Lamb.

A couple of things kind of jump out at you here. The very important significance of the Lamb seems to feature prominent. The repeated organization using the number 7. Oh and there is the small matter of the cataclysmic nature of the conflict.

Anyway, that's the first seven chapters, the other two are easily organized in groups of

(1-7) Seals ,
(8-14) Trumpets,
(15-21) Vials of Wrath.

Oh yea, then there is the direct connection to Origins.

22) New Creation.

I actually have a point here, the Bible not only begins with Creation, it ends with it as well. The New Testament is crystal clear on this point of doctrine and the Church, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant or otherwise are agreed. God was Creator in the beginning and He is going to do it again.

Your thoughts...

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[dysert]

Not sure where you want to go with this thread, but since it's titled "Revelation: Literal vs. Figurative" I'll give my 2 cents on that. As a long-time student and teacher of Revelation, my philosophy of interpretation comes down to this. The passages of the book only mean one thing. It's our job to figure out what that one thing is. It can't be full of symbols that anyone could interpret to mean anything they want. There are symbols to be sure, but in my experience the symbols are defined either elsewhere in Revelation or somewhere else in Scripture. (For example, a "star" can mean "angel" per Rev. 1:20.)

My default is to accept something as literal if it can be literal, but if it can't, then search the Scriptures for the symbol's meaning. By interpreting things this way, you generally come up with only one meaning to a passage. It also has the side benefit of allowing you to check your understanding against that of others who adopt the literal-first approach, since theoretically literalists should come to the same general consensus about what a passage is saying.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

It’s a book of symbols, written in the specific genre of apocalypse, which was popular thousands of years ago. I don’t know what to make of it.

 

[mark kennedy]

Not sure where you want to go with this thread, but since it's titled "Revelation: Literal vs. Figurative" I'll give my 2 cents on that. As a long-time student and teacher of Revelation, my philosophy of interpretation comes down to this. The passages of the book only mean one thing. It's our job to figure out what that one thing is. It can't be full of symbols that anyone could interpret to mean anything they want. There are symbols to be sure, but in my experience the symbols are defined either elsewhere in Revelation or somewhere else in Scripture. (For example, a "star" can mean "angel" per Rev. 1:20.)

My default is to accept something as literal if it can be literal, but if it can't, then search the Scriptures for the symbol's meaning. By interpreting things this way, you generally come up with only one meaning to a passage. It also has the side benefit of allowing you to check your understanding against that of others who adopt the literal-first approach, since theoretically literalists should come to the same general consensus about what a passage is saying.

I'm thinking Rev 22 and Genesis 1 here, ever notice that the first three stanzas of the Nicene speak of creation? It's not that important to the narrative of the Revelation but it would appear to be transcendent. Just a couple of things, for one thing we are talking about huge catastrophic judgments on the earth and I believe that to be essentially literal. In fact it's among the few collections of prophecies that are predictive and yet to be fulfilled.

What I was most curious about though is what did you think of the outline. Obviously I regard the text as essentially literal, predictive and yet to be fulfilled prophecy. My interest is whether or not you think the outline has sound content backing it. Do note, the 11th chapter, right in the middle of the narrative has a specific measurement of days. It comes to about 3 1/2 years.

This is intended to be brief but concise. I think it emphasizes some pretty dynamic imagery as well.

1) The Revelation (Parousia)
2) 7 Letters to the Seven Churches.
3) 7 Letters continued.
4) 7 Lamps of fire (Menorah).
5) 7 Seals to be opened by the Lamb
6) Seals opened, S-1 (Seal One) thru S-5
7) The 144,000 sealed, the world hides from the Lamb.

8) S-7 Silence, Trumpets (T-1 thru T-4)
9) T-5 Locusts, T-6 Euphrates.
10) The Angel and the Little Book.
11) The Two Witnesses clothed in sackcloth.
12) The Woman, Child, Dragon
13) The Beast of the Land and Beast of the Sea.
14) 3 Angles proclaim: 144,000; Gospel, Wrath on 666.

15) 7 Angels given the Seven Vials of Wrath.
16) Vials: V-1 thru V-7
17) Babylon and the Beast with 7 heads.
18) The Wine of the Wrath of her fall.
19) The Wedding of the Lamb.
20) The Dragon bound 1,000 years.
21) The New Jerusalem. (1,500 miles square)

22) The Healing of the Nations.​

Just wanting to know what you think about the outline. It's actually for a book design I'm working on that includes graphics.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[dysert]

I think your outline is fine. Clearly, that's how the book proceeds from a literal point of view. I've been working on a Revelation commentary myself, and I'm taking the approach of presenting the passages in (what I think is) chronological order. For example, it seems to me that Chapter 12's reference to the woman, and child is talking about Jesus' birth. And I also see chapters 7 and 14 as outside of the chronological narrative. If you were interested, you might consider making changes to your outline to reflect how you think it will be laid out chronologically. I just know from teaching the book many times that it seems the hardest thing for people to get over is the fact that there are these parenthetical passages.

I hope you'll share with us the book design you come up with .

 

[interpreter]

All of the Revelation is based on literal events.

 

[ptomwebster]

I'm thinking Rev 22 and Genesis 1 here, ever notice that the first three stanzas of the Nicene speak of creation? It's not that important to the narrative of the Revelation but it would appear to be transcendent. Just a couple of things, for one thing we are talking about huge catastrophic judgments on the earth and I believe that to be essentially literal. In fact it's among the few collections of prophecies that are predictive and yet to be fulfilled.

What I was most curious about though is what did you think of the outline. Obviously I regard the text as essentially literal, predictive and yet to be fulfilled prophecy. My interest is whether or not you think the outline has sound content backing it. Do note, the 11th chapter, right in the middle of the narrative has a specific measurement of days. It comes to about 3 1/2 years.

This is intended to be brief but concise. I think it emphasizes some pretty dynamic imagery as well.

1) The Revelation (Parousia)
2) 7 Letters to the Seven Churches.
3) 7 Letters continued.
4) 7 Lamps of fire (Menorah).
5) 7 Seals to be opened by the Lamb
6) Seals opened, S-1 (Seal One) thru S-5
7) The 144,000 sealed, the world hides from the Lamb.

8) S-7 Silence, Trumpets (T-1 thru T-4)
9) T-5 Locusts, T-6 Euphrates.
10) The Angel and the Little Book.
11) The Two Witnesses clothed in sackcloth.
12) The Woman, Child, Dragon
13) The Beast of the Land and Beast of the Sea.
14) 3 Angles proclaim: 144,000; Gospel, Wrath on 666.

15) 7 Angels given the Seven Vials of Wrath.
16) Vials: V-1 thru V-7
17) Babylon and the Beast with 7 heads.
18) The Wine of the Wrath of her fall.
19) The Wedding of the Lamb.
20) The Dragon bound 1,000 years.
21) The New Jerusalem. (1,500 miles square)

22) The Healing of the Nations.
​

Just wanting to know what you think about the outline. It's actually for a book design I'm working on that includes graphics.

Grace and peace,
Mark

It's the same outline the church has been peddling for years. I far prefer the outline EW Bullinger uses in the Companion Bible and his Commentary on Revelation:



A | i. Introduction

….B | ii, iii. The people on the earth

……..C | i. {H 1 | iv., v. In Heaven. (The Throne, the Book, and the Lamb.)
……….....E | vi. 1-vii. 8. On Earth. (The Six Seals and 144,000.)

………..| ii. {H 2 | vii. 9-viii. 6. In Heaven. (The Great Multitude and the Seventh Seal.)
……………..E | viii. 7-xi. 14. On Earth. (The Six Trumpets.)

…….....| iii. {H 3 | xi. 15-19-. In Heaven. (The Seventh Trumpet.)
……………..E | xi. -19. On Earth. (The Earthquake, etc.)

……......| iv. {H 4 | xii. 1-12. In Heaven. (Woman, Child and Dragon.)
…………...E | xii. 13-xiii. 18. On Earth. (The Dragon and Two Beasts.)

……...…| v. {H 5 | xiv. 1-5. In Heaven. (The Lamb and 144,000.)
……………E | xiv. 6-20. On Earth. (The Six Angels.)

…….....| vi. {H 6 | xv. 1-8. In Heaven. (The Seven Vial Angels.)
……….….E | xvi. 1-xviii. 24. On Earth. (The Seven Vials.)

……….…| vii. {H 7 | xix. 1-16. In Heaven. (The Marriage of the Lamb, etc.)
……………E | xix. 17-xx. 15. On Earth. (The Final Five Judgments.)

……B | xxi. 1-xxii. 5. The People on the New Earth.

A | xxii. 6-21. Conclusion.

 

[wordsoflife]

1) The Revelation (Parousia)

This is an error. The Revelation is not "the Parousia" it is The Unveiling of Jesus Christ.

 

[dysert]

This is an error. The Revelation is not "the Parousia" it is The Unveiling of Jesus Christ.

"Parousia" simply means "presence" or "arrival". We see this is Rev. 1:7. Sure, there are lots of other pieces in Chapter 1, but an arrival is certainly one of them. It's not wrong -- it just emphasizes a verse that you might not emphasize in an outline.

 

[Manasseh_]

This is an error. The Revelation is not "the Parousia" it is The Unveiling of Jesus Christ.

The Revelation is the final end time leading up to Christ's parousia (return)

could you explain what you mean by "The Unveiling of Jesus Christ" I can't recall from scripture a time that Christ ever was veiled to begin with ??

 

[dysert]

The Revelation is the final end time leading up to Christ's parousia (return)

could you explain what you mean by "The Unveiling of Jesus Christ" I can't recall from scripture a time that Christ ever was veiled to begin with ??

The book begins with "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, ..." The word "revelation" means "unveiling", so it's appropriate to use that word as well. As for when Christ was veiled to begin with, this is seen in Dan. 12:9 --> "And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.'" Daniel's prophecy about the Second Coming was closed and sealed since the First Coming hadn't yet happened.

 

[mark kennedy]

I like how the chapters fit clearly into 3 groups of sevens. I'm thinking some kind of lists of things that come in sevens would be helpful. EW Bullinger also did a book on the significance of numbers in scripture.

It's the same outline the church has been peddling for years. I far prefer the outline EW Bullinger uses in the Companion Bible and his Commentary on Revelation:



A | i. Introduction

….B | ii, iii. The people on the earth

……..C | i. {H 1 | iv., v. In Heaven. (The Throne, the Book, and the Lamb.)
……….....E | vi. 1-vii. 8. On Earth. (The Six Seals and 144,000.)

………..| ii. {H 2 | vii. 9-viii. 6. In Heaven. (The Great Multitude and the Seventh Seal.)
……………..E | viii. 7-xi. 14. On Earth. (The Six Trumpets.)

…….....| iii. {H 3 | xi. 15-19-. In Heaven. (The Seventh Trumpet.)
……………..E | xi. -19. On Earth. (The Earthquake, etc.)

……......| iv. {H 4 | xii. 1-12. In Heaven. (Woman, Child and Dragon.)
…………...E | xii. 13-xiii. 18. On Earth. (The Dragon and Two Beasts.)

……...…| v. {H 5 | xiv. 1-5. In Heaven. (The Lamb and 144,000.)
……………E | xiv. 6-20. On Earth. (The Six Angels.)

…….....| vi. {H 6 | xv. 1-8. In Heaven. (The Seven Vial Angels.)
……….….E | xvi. 1-xviii. 24. On Earth. (The Seven Vials.)

……….…| vii. {H 7 | xix. 1-16. In Heaven. (The Marriage of the Lamb, etc.)
……………E | xix. 17-xx. 15. On Earth. (The Final Five Judgments.)

……B | xxi. 1-xxii. 5. The People on the New Earth.

A | xxii. 6-21. Conclusion.

 

[mark kennedy]

The book begins with "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, ..." The word "revelation" means "unveiling", so it's appropriate to use that word as well. As for when Christ was veiled to begin with, this is seen in Dan. 12:9 --> "And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.'" Daniel's prophecy about the Second Coming was closed and sealed since the First Coming hadn't yet happened.

Parousia (παρουσί&#945
Strong's G3952

1) presence
2) the coming, arrival, advent

a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God​

I think the key here is 'every eye shall see Him'.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Epoisses]

I think your outline is fine. Clearly, that's how the book proceeds from a literal point of view. I've been working on a Revelation commentary myself, and I'm taking the approach of presenting the passages in (what I think is) chronological order. For example, it seems to me that Chapter 12's reference to the woman, and child is talking about Jesus' birth. And I also see chapters 7 and 14 as outside of the chronological narrative. If you were interested, you might consider making changes to your outline to reflect how you think it will be laid out chronologically. I just know from teaching the book many times that it seems the hardest thing for people to get over is the fact that there are these parenthetical passages.

I hope you'll share with us the book design you come up with .

I always thought that Revelation does follow a ‘general’ chronological order except when it comes to chap. 12 which seems to hopscotch thru history. The war in heaven is usually seen as happening before the creation of the earth and then the male child referring to Jesus.

I am starting to think that the war in heaven and the male child might fit into the last days as well. During the 5th and 6th trumpets two armies are released and possibly this is the time when the war in heaven could take place. The word for heaven is generic and can mean heaven, atmosphere or sky so that war could take place here and not actually in heaven.

In chap. 11 the two witnesses are introduced and then killed and finally ascend to heaven. The male child may be one of the two witnesses. These two men are given supernatural power that only few have ever had like Moses and Elijah. Jesus wont be the only one who rules with a rod of iron: ‘And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. ‘ Rev. 2:26,27

 

[Metal Minister]

I always thought that Revelation does follow a ‘general’ chronological order except when it comes to chap. 12 which seems to hopscotch thru history. The war in heaven is usually seen as happening before the creation of the earth and then the male child referring to Jesus.

I am starting to think that the war in heaven and the male child might fit into the last days as well.

I've often pondered this myself. We see in Job, Satan is still able to be in God's presence, yet he was cast down by God for rebellion. I wonder if (and I will have to do a bit more research) the battle spoken of in Revelations is Satan's final rebellion, and that he has been allowed by God to continue to cause problems here. As we see in Job, and later, in the new testament, God sometimes gives his people over to Satan for testing, to be reproved, and for punishment. I wonder if perhaps that is why God allows him to run free for now...

 

[dysert]

I always thought that Revelation does follow a ‘general’ chronological order except when it comes to chap. 12 which seems to hopscotch thru history. The war in heaven is usually seen as happening before the creation of the earth and then the male child referring to Jesus.

I am starting to think that the war in heaven and the male child might fit into the last days as well. During the 5th and 6th trumpets two armies are released and possibly this is the time when the war in heaven could take place. The word for heaven is generic and can mean heaven, atmosphere or sky so that war could take place here and not actually in heaven.

In chap. 11 the two witnesses are introduced and then killed and finally ascend to heaven. The male child may be one of the two witnesses. These two men are given supernatural power that only few have ever had like Moses and Elijah. Jesus wont be the only one who rules with a rod of iron: ‘And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. ‘ Rev. 2:26,27

Chapter 12 is my favorite of the whole book. In vv. 1-5, I think the woman is Israel (the 12 stars is reminiscent of the 12 tribes) who gave birth to Jesus (the male Child). He was almost killed by the dragon (satan) via Herod. He survived, though, and later ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9).

Fast forward to the tribulation. There, the woman (Israel) is supernaturally protected for 3 1/2 years. The dragon (satan) and his demon buddies try a last attempt to overtake the Throne, but they are cast out permanently (unlike as now, when they still have access to the throne per Job). And when they are cast down, it's "woe to the inhabitants of the earth and sea" (the same "woe" as in 9:12). This casting out corresponds in time to the 5th trumpet 9:1, which I think occurs at the 3 1/2 year point of the tribulation. (Note the "star" = angel = satan fallen from heaven.) For the last 3 1/2 years, satan & co. go after both Israel (who is protected) and the Christians who are converted during the tribulation.

 

[Achilles6129]

Mark,

The plagues in Revelation must be literal (at least, mostly). This is simply because Christ indicates in his Olivet discourse that the plagues will be literal (e.g., if the Lord had not shortened the days no flesh would be saved; men's hearts failing them for fear; distress of nations with perplexity; looking after those things which are coming on the earth; etc.).

In addition, in some cases if the plagues are not literal it negates the obvious purpose of the plague. For example, the oceans turning to blood would serve no purpose in a "metaphor," since the obvious point of the plague is that they shed the blood of saints/prophets and now they have been given blood to drink. In another example, the locusts torment them that dwell on the earth; the 200 million horsemen kill 1/3 of men, etc. These plagues would be pointless were they not literal.

To make the plagues in Revelation out to be symbolic is, in my opinion, to basically make the book of Revelation out to be a book of unsolvable riddles/enigmas that no-one will ever be able to figure out even after the events have transpired.

The only way to interpret it is literal in my opinion. That is my two cents.

 

[Epoisses]

I've often pondered this myself. We see in Job, Satan is still able to be in God's presence, yet he was cast down by God for rebellion. I wonder if (and I will have to do a bit more research) the battle spoken of in Revelations is Satan's final rebellion, and that he has been allowed by God to continue to cause problems here. As we see in Job, and later, in the new testament, God sometimes gives his people over to Satan for testing, to be reproved, and for punishment. I wonder if perhaps that is why God allows him to run free for now...

When the dragon is introduced in chap. 12 he has seven heads and ten horns which is the final form of the beast that we see in Daniel and Revelation. This disproves the idea that the war was Satan's initial rebellion in heaven which was long before any of the earthly beasts had shown up. So yes I definitely agree. His casting to the earth may represent the time when the bottomless pit is finally opened and then later during the millennium he is cast back in.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

in my opinion, to basically make the book of Revelation out to be a book of unsolvable riddles/enigmas that no-one will ever be able to figure out even after the events have transpired.
yep

 

[Epoisses]

in my opinion, to basically make the book of Revelation out to be a book of unsolvable riddles/enigmas that no-one will ever be able to figure out even after the events have transpired.
yep

Where's the fun in that? I guess you don't like crossword puzzles and brain teasers either.