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So does that make them right? You know John do you? I am a partial preterist. I believe in their view of Revelation.
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99.9999% of the christian world would disagree with you on that! So would John, the Author.
It doesn't matter what Catholic's did centuries ago, and it wasn't the Catholic FAITH that destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., it was the imperial factions of Rome.
Who is beheading people TODAY? Who is burning people alive, crucifying them, plucking out their eyes and tongues, cutting off hands and heads, murdering their own children in honor killings, blowing themselves up in public places....
Revelation 9:17-18 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
"And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire... (suicide vest) The word for breastplates is the word 'thorax,' and were held by straps that went over the shoulders or around the neck. "...and of jacinth," (dark red)... From Vines.... Jacinth: signifies "hyacinthine," perhaps primarily having the color of the hyacinth. Some regard its color as that of the martagon lily, a dusky red.
According to Swete, the word 'jacinth' in Rev 9:17 is, "doubtless meant to describe the blue smoke of a sulphurous flame."
"...and brimstone:...." sparks and explosion This is the only place the word 'brimstone' or Strong's #2306 is used in the NT. Strong's #2306 comes from 2303 and says, "in its original sense of "flashing." "...and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; (Babylonians) and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone."
1/2 liners do nothing to add to the discussion.
I don't know Lamad, Preterism and Historicism is gaining ground these days. I think it's because it's too difficult for them to figure things out in a future context and it's so easy to quote something that happened centuries ago and say, "it already happened."
They don't suffice. You can post one liners all you want but all you're doing is posting an opinion with zero substance to support your one liners! I've seen posters wit 10,000 post, 90% of which lack substance and were one and two liners. That's where you're headed. No real contribution whatsoever.
They are all futurist interpretations. Preterism and historicism is explained it a few words. "It already happened!"
Everyone knows Revelation is deep code, but if you talk to many self-styled prophecy experts, they will make claims otherwise -- though, by their own explanations, they show they agree. This is where they believe they have value, by deciphering that code for you.
It just so happens that their often very complicated decipherings - which are mainstream, usually - end up teaching a message that is from the eternal darkness, the Abyss, and not from the eternal light, God.
Jesus spoke of this, 'they are ever hearing, ever seeing, but never perceiving'.
God spoke of this to Moses, in a response to Aaron and Miriam's challenge of Moses, saying,
Numbers 12
'6 he said, “Listen to my words:
“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?”'
Indeed, it is true, God spoke in riddle to the Prophets, and in all prophecy.
Someone can argue that the Apostles did not speak this way, but in regards to end times prophecy, this is certainly true. They spoke of mysteries, and they spoke in terms of riddles. Jesus, himself stated, as to the 'last hour', that 'only the Father, who is in Heaven, knows'.
However, this does not mean it would always be this way, as it is Jesus who gives us Revelation. Part of the mystery there is Jesus points out that 'I sat on my father's throne', when he divulges that he is the one given John Revelation, through his angel.
Indeed, as I already pointed out, though Jesus 'always spoke to the people in parable' - which is certainly synonymous with 'code' or 'riddle' - he did speak to be heard by the elect. So, how did the apostles hear his teachings? How do the elect decipher what Jesus teaches? But, through the Spirit, the Spirit of the Son and of the Father, who 'teaches us all things'.
John pointed out, 'you do not need a teacher, for the Spirit will teach you all things'.
These things said, to end times prophecy, specifically, especially in regards to the very difficult code of Revelation...
If you perform much research here, in terms of looking at popular interpretations, you can easily be waylaid by the vast confusion - the 'muddying of waters' - put on it through the centuries. In fact, people would argue that there is only two ways to look at these matters: an "idealist" or "allegorical" way, or the literal way. Even though, with Revelation, especially, there is no literal way, and you will never meet anyone who espouses interpretations of it in an absolute literal way. Again, as I stated above, they may claim this, when it is convenient for them -- but, the very fact that they are offering interpretations shows that they believe there is something to interpret.
Approaching Revelation as code, is, in fact, the best literal way to approach it.
A good example of this is how the Catholic Church and other figureheads of the 'religious establishment' argue that they reign already with Christ. They do this primarily through the teachings of Augustine's 'City of God'. Augustine posited that Christians could say they are already in the Millennium, and so are already reigning with Christ, on earth.
Augustine also put forth that Constantine was the rider on the white horse.
Both of these teachings even the Catholic Church does not put enough stock into to include in their official teachings, as espoused by the "catechism", but it is, still, their official stance. And so in their official teachings, but simply not directly. This is only because it is such an indefensible position to take.
The literal reading of that passage, Revelation 20, is obvious. It depicts not only the return of Jesus, with the Angels, but also the killing of all flesh on earth. It depicts this as happening after Babylon is destroyed by the Beast, and after the Beast and False Prophet are captured and thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Right after all flesh on earth is not only killed, but 'gorged upon by the birds', then it is depicted that those who 'did not receive the mark of the beast on their hand or forehead', those 'beheaded by the Beast', are resurrected from the dead, and 'reign with Christ for a thousand years'.
Obviously, these things have not happened, yet.
Taking those matters as code, or some manner of figurative speech, is certainly a daunting task, but so is it with much of Revelation.
It is important here to remember that even the elect can have hard spirits. And this is well demonstrated by Jesus, when, after the feeding of the masses, Jesus found the apostles arguing among themselves about 'bread'. Jesus had warned against the 'bread of the Pharisees', and the Apostles were taking this to mean literal bread of the Pharisees. He pointed out to them that their hearts were hard, dull, that he obviously was not arguing about literal bread, asking them the rhetorical question about how he had just shown them they do not need to worry about literal food, at all -- he had just fed the masses by miracle, calling forth food from 'as if' 'thin air'.
In the end times, which it has been since Jesus taught, and certainly is very much so, right now, people are very interested in the meanings behind the code of Revelation. But, there is also a dire warning given there, at the end of the book. Not to add anything to it, nor to take anything away from it.
For those who put all the curses of Scripture on other people, this is the path they will take. The 'blind leading the blind, into a pit'. 'Pride comes before a fall'. And you can certainly know Revelation was designed with them in mind.
The pride God has allowed to fester on earth, is staggeringly high. It is compared to the Tower of Babel, by the depiction of the Christian religious establishment as "Babylon", pointing out that the 'adulteries' of 'Babylon' have mad the world drunk on the maddening wine of the blood of the witnesses.
You can certainly observe this pride in full force, today. You have the Catholic Church spinning its' wheels to try and avoid a major crisis which is in play, one which has implicated even the Pope, already, in multiple instances. Where a church is covering up, systematically, and across centuries, sex crimes against children -- even to the point of systematically placing these sex criminals back into not only the church, but continued access to their victims. Further, they have been caught doing this not only once or twice, but already tens of thousands of times. And, they had previously sworn they would not do this again, after the disclosures during the turn of the millennium.
Yet, somehow, the basic understanding that this "Babylon" spoken of is not the 'Christian religious establishment' fails to hit with many. Just as they fail to perceive that the dead in Christ have not resurrected, and they are certainly not reigning already with Christ 'for a thousand years'.
Likewise, 'the Beast', of Revelation, is often depicted as 'one person'. What one person has ten kingdoms on their head, or seven heads, for that matter?
Just because you have come to consider these interpretations as true, even having held that possibility as open for a long time, does not mean you are not elect. For we see the call in even Revelation, to the elect, crying, "Come out of Babylon, so you do not share in her punishment for her sins".
Do not think "Babylon" is only the "Catholic Church", either. It is the 'Christian religious establishment'. I just finished reading a paper last night in a Catholic paper that argued they were concerned about heavy Catholic investment in Trump, arguing that he was going to fall, and this would cause a lot of problems for Catholics. That is, Catholics who had invested heavily in Trump. Seeing him as their leader.
All across Revelation, there are obtuse riddles put forth, very often these are put forth in terms people have a very difficult time fathoming as riddles at all. We all know this.
The 'two witnesses' are a good example of this. Many rest on their readings of Revelation, trusting in the 'false prophets', who like most of the "Christian" 'false prophets' of today were mere interpreters of prophecy, not claiming God actually spoke to them.
This was said of Jesus, that he spoke with authority, unlike the Pharisees.
And, today, we have to be wary of the bread of the modern Pharisees. The "Christian" religious establishment. An establishment such as the world is established. Where the strong and the cunning push their way through intrigue to the top of the heap. In the world.
Where Satan shows them favor, placing them in positions of wealth and power. Both in the State, and in the Christian religious establishment that is of the world. (Reader take note here, I am speaking of the false Christianity that is of the world, not the true Christianity that is not of this world. As for this distinction, even they, themselves, ultimately view themselves as being 'of the world'. This is part of the curse of equating the reigning of Christ with the reigning of Satan. The curse of equating the world, with the Kingdom of God. Love of the world, with love of God.)
On 'the two witnesses', they believe they would be aware of this, if anything else is such matters they may not be aware of it. How could it happen without the whole world knowing who they are, is their reasoning.
But, they could and do, to some degree, say this with the rest of Revelation.
However, is that fire which comes from their mouth literal? Is the water turned to literal blood, as Moses turned the waters to literal blood? Is their death seen by the entire population of the world? Their resurrection, too? This is a misreading, which they believe is a correct reading. Though, the whole world does see the two witnesses.
(And am I saying the two witnesses have not already come? I do believe they have already come, but will not argue that point, here. But, I point this out merely to point out how I worded this, to fit with those who see this as a future event. The way in which I stated this does not mean that I am literally saying they are yet to be.)
How does the 'sky roll up like a scroll'? This, too, comes well before the two witnesses, and many other major events in Revelation? This would certainly be something the whole world would witness. And, we have, haven't we. We have a closed book on the sky, or the heavens, don't we? We have landed men on the moon, and have a vast view of the Heavens. We no longer see the sun as revolving around the earth, and countless other mysteries about the Heavens have been solved.
These things really started, and happened, long ago.
Likewise, we have already seen horrible plagues which have decimated the earth, again and again. Not only literal plagues, such as the black death, but also spiritual plagues, such as the vast tower of false teachings which rise above the earth as the tower of babel did.
In terms of the water turning to blood, Babylon sits on the waters, and is drunk with the blood of the witnesses, or martyrs. ("Martyr" is Greek for "Witness".)
When Moses turned the waters into blood, the false prophets, Jannes and Jambres, were able to repeat this plague. Adding to its' devastation.
(It should not be thought that what Jannes and Jambres did was anything more then magic tricks, however. I only illustrate this for purpose of answering the argument that a confused person might make, that I am stating 'Babylon' turns water into blood. 'Babylon's blood wine should be considered more like the modern concept of 'blood money'.)
There is much within Revelation people need to be asking the Lord on 'what does it mean'. The Spirit is within and 'leads into all truth'. But, one has to be open to hearing the truth, even though the Spirit of Truth does repeat, consistently, truth to you, in your heart.
Indeed, it is these very things I exhort believers to pay attention to: those things which have been often repeated to you, in your very heart. Often, over many years. Things which you should finally pay attention to.
The difficulty of the Spirit getting your attention on such matters as end times prophecy is that the world says very different things, in many different ways. And, it is daunting to shove all of that aside, judging your fellow Christians as being in the wrong, or possibly so.
We are asked to respect the authority of soldiers and police, as being authority of God. Likewise, should we truly question anyone placed into power in the world, even if they are of the 'Christian religious establishment'? But, we are certainly told we should not refrain from judging our own - or those who claim to be our own - while we are told we should not bother judging those of the world. ('As for those in the world, let God judge them', Paul. A plain and obvious exhortation, which is very clearly ignored by those who equate 'the world' with 'the Kingdom of God'.)
Regardless, there are many such things in Revelation which need to be discerned by Christians. Including the identity, or general substance of 'the Beast', so they are not fooled. This does include such matters as, 'what does it mean you can not buy or sell', and 'what does it mean to be beheaded by the beast'.
As for 'the Beast', the elect should be very aware of the tie in of 'the Beast' with the prophecies in Daniel. The 'statue of Nebuchadnezzar' has not fallen yet. There are other, related prophecies, in Daniel which also tie into 'the Beast'.
Though, it is true, the elect do see the substance of 'the Beast', in the sense, that they understand the world and worshipers of the world are chasing after a neverending (seemingly) dream. One of absolute futility, a world which has risen up out of the neverending darkness of the Abyss.
I understand. Many of us enjoy searching out the prophecies because the Lord's return in power and glory is mentioned over two hundred times compared to his first advent which is only mentioned maybe a dozen times if that. Evidently, God found the end of days important enough to prophesy about it more than the first advent. In the end, prophecy will bring many to Christ because it proves the power of the Almighty through His fore-knowledge.
Of course you are free to believe what you want. I don't believe that Revelation is in "code."So does that make them right? You know John do you? I am a partial preterist. I believe in their view of Revelation.
Huh?You said,
Mecca and/or Medina get nuked....
Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
No need to explain that one. Mecca is NUKED!
Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.
Muslims will become weary, even the merchants and lifelong followers of Islam are dumfounded and able to do nothing about it.
Further, Peter was stated as being in "Babylon", but this was understood by Christian ancient writers, and the Catholic Church, to mean "Rome". It was and remains understood to mean "Rome". This is how they attribute Peter to Rome.
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