Revelation 3:16

[dogs4thewin]

How do Calvinists deal with this verse?

 

[JM]

Tell us what you believe this passage teaches and we can discuss it. Calvinists have no problem dealing with scripture. Until then please review a common confession among Reformed Baptists for further information.

Thank you.

http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc17.html

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

How do Calvinists deal with this verse?

Good question, let''s look at the text first...

Rev 3:16 "He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,"

Next, let's think about this verse from a non-Calvinist perspective. From an Arminian perspective consistently interpreting the word "all" as ALL, this seems to be a really problematic passage.

From a Calvinist perspective, this passage actually reinforces our explanation of the word "all", meaning not every human being, but subsets of people from all nations, all different kinds of people.

If we read the verse in context, we read the following in verse 8....

Rev 3:8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Here again the word "all" is limited, because those whose names HAVE been written in the "Book of Life" from the foundation of the world, will not worship the beast (so all doesn't always mean all). Verse 8 is also problematic to the Arminian "free will" defense. Don't those whose names are not written in the Book of Life have a choice? Can they choose not to worship the beast? Also probematic is that the names in the Book of Life were written from the "foundation of the world" or the beginning of the world, before the individuals were ever born!

Thank you for bringing this to attention, as these verses help reinforce how the word "all" is misused and abused by non-Calvinists.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Good question, let''s look at the text first...

Rev 3:16 "He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,"

Next, let's think about this verse from a non-Calvinist perspective. From an Arminian perspective consistently interpreting the word "all" as ALL, this seems to be a really problematic passage.

From a Calvinist perspective, this passage actually reinforces our explanation of the word "all", meaning not every human being, but subsets of people from all nations, all different kinds of people.

If we read the verse in context, we read the following in verse 8....

Rev 3:8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Here again the word "all" is limited, because those whose names HAVE been written in the "Book of Life" from the foundation of the world, will not worship the beast (so all doesn't always mean all). Verse 8 is also problematic to the Arminian "free will" defense. Don't those whose names are not written in the Book of Life have a choice? Can they choose not to worship the beast? Also probematic is that the names in the Book of Life were written from the "foundation of the world" or the beginning of the world, before the individuals were ever born!

Thank you for bringing this to attention, as these verses help reinforce how the word "all" is misused and abused by non-Calvinists.

Are you sure you're in Revelation Chapter Three, bro?

 

[gmm4j]

Rev 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Rev 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

yes that verse

 

[Arcoe]

yes that verse

Rev 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Wasn't this verse written to the elect? Not a good sign for any predestined believer.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Rev 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Wasn't this verse written to the elect? Not a good sign for any predestined believer.

that was my point how can you say that you cannot leave the faith if that verse clearly was written to members of the church and clearly to those who HAVE accepted. There is another verse somewhere in the new testament that says if you truly reject Him (after accepting) you cannot be accepted back. Once you have tasted the gift if you leave you are putting Him to shame again,

 

[twin1954]

that was my point how can you say that you cannot leave the faith if that verse clearly was written to members of the church and clearly to those who HAVE accepted. There is another verse somewhere in the new testament that says if you truly reject Him (after accepting) you cannot be accepted back. Once you have tasted the gift if you leave you are putting Him to shame again,

To understand the passage in that way is to deny all the promises of Christ to His church and people concerning His faithfulness to guard and keep them. It also denies the truth that our faithfulness doesnt depend on us but Him in us. If anything depends on us we are doomed. The Rev. passage must first be understood in the light of the truth fist set in the context of Christ walking among and guarding His churches. He does so as the Great Shepherd of His sheep. He gives these words of correction in love toHis churches not as mocking them. His warnings to His people are never intended to bring fear, that would be the result of your interpretation (see my sig), but as a loving correction to turn and trust Him. Christ could never disown His child any more than you could yours. Actually you might be able to disown yours but Christ never could. Isa. 49:15-16

 

[Arcoe]

To understand the passage in that way is to deny all the promises of Christ to His church and people concerning His faithfulness to guard and keep them. It also denies the truth that our faithfulness doesnt depend on us but Him in us. If anything depends on us we are doomed. The Rev. passage must first be understood in the light of the truth fist set in the context of Christ walking among and guarding His churches. He does so as the Great Shepherd of His sheep. He gives these words of correction in love toHis churches not as mocking them. His warnings to His people are never intended to bring fear, that would be the result of your interpretation (see my sig), but as a loving correction to turn and trust Him. Christ could never disown His child any more than you could yours. Actually you might be able to disown yours but Christ never could. Isa. 49:15-16

Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 2:16
Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:3,5
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:11,12
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The very truth from Jesus to the churches:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

You say we are denying all the promises, I say you are denying all the warnings from the Savior Himself.

 

[R Baker]

There is no logical reason to assume that these promises and warnings given to the church of Laodicea or any of the churches addressed in this context or any church that has ever existed is comprised of exclusively redeemed individuals. If the assertion is that a "saved" person can lose their salvation I have debated this subject and would invite anyone to view the debate. See esp. page 2 post 20.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7653524/

 

[Arcoe]

There is no logical reason to assume that these promises and warnings given to the church of Laodicea or any of the churches addressed in this context or any church that has ever existed is comprised of exclusively redeemed individuals. If the assertion is that a "saved" person can lose their salvation I have debated this subject and would invite anyone to view the debate. See esp. page 2 post 20.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7653524/

Perhaps you should read the warnings again if you don't think they are for saved individuals of the churches. Who suggested to you the churches mentioned are not comprised of the saved? Did the Spirit relate this to you? Perhaps you think Jesus didn't really mean the churches when He spoke to them through John.

I will get back to Revelation in a second, but I would like to say, in your debate, I read the same Calvinist rhetoric I heard over and over. However, one verse I didn't see you address (maybe you did, but I didn't come across it), is Hebrews 5:9.

And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation.

Very plain and simple, yet it holds the very truth of salvation. It says nothing of election, predestination, drawing, calling, nor sanctification. Just the simple truth of Jesus being the source of eternal salvation of all those who obey Him.

One can speak from the lips, all he wants about election and predestination, but the bottom line is, DO YOU OBEY HIS WORD? If one does not obey the truth, it matters not if he thinks he is chosen from the foundation of the world or predestined.

You can keep your fancy Latin words, for they mean nothing to me. I rather have the simple truth of the word, as I read in Hebrews 5:9. If one argues against obedience towards salvation, I really have to wonder if truth really matters to them, or would they rather believe what pleases them.

Now, continuing on to Revelation. I will give you some verses from chapters 2 and 3, and you can tell me if you think it is referring to believers or unbelievers.

ch. 2 -
3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary.
4 But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

Believers or unbelievers?


ch. 2 -
10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

Believers or unbelievers?


ch. 2 -
16 Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Believers or unbelievers?


ch. 2 -
26 He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father;
28 and I will give him the morning star.
29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Believers or unbelievers?

ch. 3 -
19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

And finally, believers or unbelievers?

 

[R Baker]

If you take a closer look you may notice that I stated that no church "is comprised exclusively of redeemed individuals" but that every church assembly is composed of both believers and unbelievers so that when the Christian message is presented it must be recognized that the Holy Spirit will convict those within the mixed multitude with promises and warnings as is appropriate to the needs of the individual.

I have dealt with the letter to the Hebrews extensively in the previously referenced debate. Regarding 5:9 "And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation" NASB This verse refers to the obedience of faith. Rom 1:5, 6:14-23; 16:24-27 and, of course, supports the Calvinistic position that salvation is eternal

From the moment we are saved we possess: ETERNAL life given by the ETERNAL God who is the source of ETERNAL salvation who out of His EVERLASTING mercy promises an EVERLASTING covenant of ETERNAL redemption saving from the EVERLASTING punishment of ETERNAL damnation according to His ETERNAL purpose imputing EVERLASTING righteousness as an ETERNAL inheritance.

Then why the exhortations, admonishments, and warnings to believers?

Herman Bavinck 1854-1921 in his Reformed Dogmatics vol.4 states:

"Now the question with respect to this doctrine of perseverance is not whether those who have obtained a true saving faith could not, if left to themselves, lose it again by their own fault and sins: nor whether sometimes all the activity, boldness, and comfort of faith actually ceases, and faith itself goes into hiding under the cares of life and the delights of the world. The question is whether God upholds, continues, and completes the work of grace he has begun, or whether he sometimes permits it to be totally ruined by the power of sin...[Perseverance] is a gift of God. He watches over it and sees to it that the work of grace is continued and completed. He does not, however, do this apart from believers but through them. In regeneration and faith, he grants a grace that as such bears an inadmissible character; he grants a life that is by nature eternal; he bestows the benefits of calling, justification, and glorification that are mutually and unbreakably interconnected. All of the above-mentioned admonitions and threats that Scripture addresses to believers, therefore, do not prove a thing against the doctrine of perseverance. They are rather the way in which God himself confirms his promise and gift through believers. They are the MEANS by which perseverance in life is realized. After all, perseverance is also not coercive but, as a gift of God, impacts humans in a spiritual manner. It is precisely God's will, by admonition and warning, morally to lead believers to heavenly blessedness and by the grace of the Holy Spirit to prompt them willingly to persevere in faith and love. It is therefore completely mistaken to reason from the admonitions of Holy Scripture to the possibility of a total loss of grace. This conclusion is illegimate as when, in the case of Christ, people infer from his temptation that he was able to sin. The certainty of the outcome does not render the MEANS superfluous but is inseparably connected with them in the decree of God. Paul knew with certainty that in the case of shipwreck no one would lose one's life, yet he declares, 'Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved.' (Acts 27:22, 31)" (pp. 267-68)

No one can know with unmistakable certainty a professing Christian’s true spiritual condition and so we are exhorted to warn all of apostasy. Likewise, because of self-deception, we cannot infallibly know our own hearts and so we must take warning, examining ourselves, endeavoring to fulfill our duties in love to our Lord until we are received into the heavenly kingdom “so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end” Heb.6:11 “since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus” Heb.10:19 with a “sincere heart in full assurance of faith” Heb.10:22 we can “hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful” Heb.10:23 “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.” Heb.10:36

It all boils down to who controls salvation. The monergist says "seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." 2 Pet.1:3-4 And - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (not through autonomous faith) to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, who by God's power are being kept through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1Pet.1:3-5 The synergist must have the last say in order to be consistent with his theology regarding his definition of "freewill". He must faithfully "persevere to the end" by his continued obedience to God's law. This faith originates from his not so "fallen nature" so that when he chooses to engage his freewill to exercise his faith, God being dependent on man, is obliged to honor man's autonomous act and regenerate that person. Then, if autonomous man chooses, he can sin away or simply decide to give back that "eternal" redemption as he sees fit. You cannot avoid the logical and Biblical conclusion that this view is legalism -"works righteousness" - condemned by God in Galatians and elsewhere.

What is the Scriptural mandate? Salvation by Sovereign grace or by self-effort? Justification by imputed righteousness? Or Justification by self-righteousness?

 

[dogs4thewin]

I know for a fact we have free will and can go aganist God's will because I have seen it and done it, and if it could not be done then why the warnings and why do people not follow God the first time, for example as with Jonah.

 

[R Baker]

It would greatly be to your advantage, when attempting to engage in an argument with someone with whom you disagree, that you have at least a cursory understanding of their position. The Calvinist position on the subject of "Freewill" has been thoroughly presented for hundreds of years, most notably Martin Luther's magnus opus "The Bondage of the Will". Calvinists affirm that all men are "free moral agents", freely choosing to do whatever the desires of their hearts are. What is God's verdict? - "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."(Gen.6:5) God does not force anyone to act contrary to their will. The problem comes when a person fails to recognize the Biblical assessment of mankind's "fallen" condition. His whole nature has been ruined, totally enslaved to sin. He has received the forewarned curse of physical death as proof. His mind, emotions and will are now focused on self instead of God and others. We are now born "dead (spiritually) in our trespasses and our sins"(Eph.2:1). There is no one who does good(Rom.3:12). No one who understands and seeks God(Rom.3:11) No one will come to Christ for life on their own(Jn.5:40). Indeed no man is able to. John:"35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”... "44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."..."65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

The only reason anyone comes to Christ is because the Father draws them.
The only reason anyone is willing to come is because that one has been regenerated resulting in a new nature - a renewed, enlightened mind, emotions and will.

This can only come from the Sovereign grace of God. Those chosen will respond in faith to God's drawing which always results in resurrection life. "Thy(God's) people shall be willing in the day of thy(God's) power..." Ps.110:3

 

[dogs4thewin]

Honest question from what I have seen in my life ( both in others and me personally) You can be drawn to Christ and know His will, but still not actually come to Him. For example, someone can be told about Christ believe and have trouble giving themselves wholly to Christ. Like right now, being honest right here on the forum My church has a mid-week service. I am usually at school, however I will be taking this coming semester off 1-9-13 to I believe 5-9-13. I can feel that God may be wanting me to go and drawing me to the mid-week service ( honestly I do at times) However, because they only have services for children/youth and an adult service that usually is comprised of people at LEAST twice my age I have chosen not to go until a college program is started. Is that what you talk about when you say drawn like feeling that tug?

 

[singlecandle]

John Macarthur says the church in Laodicea is an unsaved church. If God is addressing the church to repent then they must be a church that is chosen but has not yet repented.