Revelation 12:17

[mrs94]

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[b]

I am honestly asking those that know how to discuss without personal attacks to please tell me who these people are that the dragon makes war with?

Are they Jews? If so, how are they not under a curse if they keeping the commandments, as some of seem to think?

 

[mrs94]

I'm surprised that there are no takers on trying to explain who these people are. I think there is actually a second reference to these people in Revelation. I'll see if I can dig it up later.

 

[student ad x]

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[b]

I am honestly asking those that know how to discuss without personal attacks to please tell me who these people are that the dragon makes war with?

Are they Jews? If so, how are they not under a curse if they keeping the commandments, as some of seem to think?

Hello mrs94

The rest of the offspring may be remnant believing Jews after the dragon failed to destroy the Messiah, or the dragon making war against the church/body of Christ on earth through the ages. I lean toward the remnant of believing Jews in the 1st-2nd centuries, but don't necessarily exclude the other.

Sola gratia
SAX

 

[mrs94]

Hello mrs94

The rest of the offspring may be remnant believing Jews after the dragon failed to destroy the Messiah, or the dragon making war against the church/body of Christ on earth through the ages. I lean toward the remnant of believing Jews in the 1st-2nd centuries, but don't necessarily exclude the other.

Sola gratia
SAX

Thanks for posting. I am specifically asking how these people can be under a curse for following the commandments if the scripture states they also hold to the testimony of Jesus.

 

[Barraco]

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[b]

I am honestly asking those that know how to discuss without personal attacks to please tell me who these people are that the dragon makes war with?

Are they Jews? If so, how are they not under a curse if they keeping the commandments, as some of seem to think?

No. They are Gentiles.

Jesus came and taught His apostles. They brought the word to the firstfruits, the elect remnant of Israel. Rev. 7 and 14 calls them the 144,000 sealed. These fled Jerusalem and Judea when war broke out and when the traditional high priesthood was dissolved. They brought the Gospel to those nations they fled to. Those that believed their word were the offspring of the woman (Israel; Genesis 37:9-10.)

So we have the woman and the offspring. The remnant of Israel and the Gentiles that came to believe their message.

The 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel and the great multitude of Gentiles that came to believe because of their message.

The firstfruits and the Gentiles.

 

[mrs94]

No. They are Gentiles.

Jesus came and taught His apostles. They brought the word to the firstfruits, the elect remnant of Israel. Rev. 7 and 14 calls them the 144,000 sealed. These fled Jerusalem and Judea when war broke out and when the traditional high priesthood was dissolved. They brought the Gospel to those nations they fled to. Those that believed their word were the offspring of the woman (Israel; Genesis 37:9-10.)

So we have the woman and the offspring. The remnant of Israel and the Gentiles that came to believe their message.

The 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel and the great multitude of Gentiles that came to believe because of their message.

The firstfruits and the Gentiles.

Ok, you believe that this already happened. And, you believe they are Gentiles. Then, what does keeping the commandments have to do with, in your opinion?

 

[Barraco]

Ok, you believe that this already happened. And, you believe they are Gentiles. Then, what does keeping the commandments have to do with, in your opinion?

Jesus, in John 15, told His disciples that if they loved Him, they would keep Hiscommandments. Philapelphia's church was praised for keeping Christ's word and His testimony. Interestingly, the offspring keep God's commandments and the testimony of Jesus. I see a definite connection.

Jesus, dying on the cross, fulfilled the Law. In Hebrews, the author goes out of his or her way to show that angels gave Moses a law written on stones, but Christ, who is greater than the angels gave us a Law written on our hearts. Evidently a different law. The commandments of Jesus are His teachings.

 

[mrs94]

Jesus, in John 15, told His disciples that if they loved Him, they would keep Hiscommandments. Philapelphia's church was praised for keeping Christ's word and His testimony. Interestingly, the offspring keep God's commandments and the testimony of Jesus. I see a definite connection.

Jesus, dying on the cross, fulfilled the Law. In Hebrews, the author goes out of his or her way to show that angels gave Moses a law written on stones, but Christ, who is greater than the angels gave us a Law written on our hearts. Evidently a different law. The commandments of Jesus are His teachings.

What are "His" commands if not God's...since they are one and the same? And, "The Word was with God and the Word was God"...are you saying that Christ's Word is different that God's?

 

[Barraco]

What are "His" commands if not God's...since they are one and the same? And, "The Word was with God and the Word was God"...are you saying that Christ's Word is different that God's?

I'm not saying that at all.

We know that Christ speaks the words of the Father.

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. (John 14:10 ESV)"

So when Christ gives us a command, it comes from God.

"If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. (John 15:10 ESV)"

What many stumble on is that the Law of Moses was given to the Israelites alone by angels.

"For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? (Hebrews 2:2, 3 ESV)"

But Christ was exalted above the angels, having preeminence in the Father. And Christ fulfilled the Law given to Israel and gave a new Law, the Law of Righteousness.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them." (Romans 10:4, 5 ESV)

The Law of Moses was not sufficient for righteousness. Therefore, anyone who lived by those commands could not please God. Instead they fell under the Law's curse as specified in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. That is the curse that Jesus took on Himself and on behalf of those that believe in Him.

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"-- so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:13, 14 ESV)

So Moses' delivered a Law that reveals and condemns unrighteousness, but does not bring righteousness among us. But Christ, through His teachings, delivered a Law unto us that redeems, forgives, loves, and brings righteousness through faith.

So Christ's teachings are God's commands. The Mosaic Law was finished and completed in Christ, whom being born under Moses' Law was freed from it when He died. And He resurrected free from the Mosaic Law. So, those who live in Christ live free from the Mosaic Law and all its curses, being hidden in Christ until the Day He returns.

That is the blessing of the offspring in Revelation 12:17, the Gentiles who entered into Abraham's inheritance through faith in Christ.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[b]

I am honestly asking those that know how to discuss without personal attacks to please tell me who these people are that the dragon makes war with?

Are they Jews? If so, how are they not under a curse if they keeping the commandments, as some of seem to think?

Not at all. these are the Christians who will follow God in the last days. The Woman is the universal church. God throughout scripture has compared or used the symbol of a woman to represent his church. The remnant of the woman are those at the end who make up God's last day believers.

Revelation 14:12 doesn't say here is the patience of the Jews, it says here is the patience of the saints. Here are they which keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. I am sure you were also told that if you try to keep God's commandments it means you do not have faith in God. Again not true according to that scripture.

 

[genetheking]

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I am honestly asking those that know how to discuss without personal attacks to please tell me who these people are that the dragon makes war with?

Are they Jews? If so, how are they not under a curse if they keeping the commandments, as some of seem to think?

No they're not necessarily Jews theyre just as the text says those who keep the commandments of God in the end times or time of tribulation/persecution also Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[bugkiller]

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[b]

I am honestly asking those that know how to discuss without personal attacks to please tell me who these people are that the dragon makes war with?

Are they Jews? If so, how are they not under a curse if they keeping the commandments, as some of seem to think?

It depends on what commandments one is talking about. Are you talking about the 10 Cs which are not the ones referred to in the quoted passage.

If you think or demand that it is the 10 Cs; I would like you to show why you think that. I believe I can show why they are not the 10 Cs. I will do so only after you say why you think they are with Scripture.

bugkiller

 

[mrs94]

Derp...lost my post...trying again.

 

[mrs94]

I'm not saying that at all.

We know that Christ speaks the words of the Father.

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. (John 14:10 ESV)"

So when Christ gives us a command, it comes from God.

Christ could give no "new" thing or He have been in violation of Torah as a false prophet and/or liar per Deuteronomy. He expounded on and explained what salvation and faith really meant. Faith comes first, obedience comes next. This has ALWAYS been the case from Adam, to Noah, to Abraham and now to Christ and past Him.

"If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. (John 15:10 ESV)"

What many stumble on is that the Law of Moses was given to the Israelites alone by angels.

This confuses me. Are you saying that the Law was given by Angels...because my Bible says that YHWH, Himself (who is Christ) gave the Law to Moses on Mount Sinai.

"For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? (Hebrews 2:2, 3 ESV)"

Are you assuming that the original meaning of "message" in this verse is the same as "law" in the below verse? Because look them up in Strong's. Law always means "Mosaic Law" and message had no mention of that.

But Christ was exalted above the angels, having preeminence in the Father. And Christ fulfilled the Law given to Israel and gave a new Law, the Law of Righteousness.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them." (Romans 10:4, 5 ESV)

1) end
a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end
1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal
c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

Since Law in the Hebrew means "to aim" or "to shoot" and sin means "to miss the mark" AND Paul speaks of "running the race" elsewhere, AND Jesus came to "fulfill" the Law...I'm going to use logic and say that end in this context means D....the goal or puporse.



The Law of Moses was not sufficient for righteousness. Therefore, anyone who lived by those commands could not please God. Instead they fell under the Law's curse as specified in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. That is the curse that Jesus took on Himself and on behalf of those that believe in Him.

True that. Jesus came to show those that followed the Law for salvation that it wasn't going to happen. Only those that had trust in Him could actually attempt to keep Torah righteously AND when they break God's Law, they now have grace (which is because Jesus took the curse on Himself) to cover them. I think that's awesome and is true FREEDOM!

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"-- so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:13, 14 ESV)



So Moses' delivered a Law that reveals and condemns unrighteousness, but does not bring righteousness among us. But Christ, through His teachings, delivered a Law unto us that redeems, forgives, loves, and brings righteousness through faith.

Yep. See above.
So Christ's teachings are God's commands. The Mosaic Law was finished and completed in Christ, whom being born under Moses' Law was freed from it when He died. And He resurrected free from the Mosaic Law. So, those who live in Christ live free from the Mosaic Law and all its curses, being hidden in Christ until the Day He returns.

I kind of see what you are saying...but, since salvation did not come from Torah anyway....we were only judged by Torah if we had no true faith in us. BTW, Greco-Roman faith is...just that...faith. Hebrew faith means so much more....believing and trusting in YHWH when He tells you to do something AND doing it....just like Noah when He built the ark even though there was no evidence of rain...just like Abraham when YHWH told him to leave Ur and go to place that He would show him.

That is the blessing of the offspring in Revelation 12:17, the Gentiles who entered into Abraham's inheritance through faith in Christ.

I believe you are correct but my understanding from throughout scripture is that it is Gentiles that place their trust in Him AND do what He says....which is not new and has never changed.

 

[mrs94]

Not at all. these are the Christians who will follow God in the last days. The Woman is the universal church. God throughout scripture has compared or used the symbol of a woman to represent his church. The remnant of the woman are those at the end who make up God's last day believers.

Revelation 14:12 doesn't say here is the patience of the Jews, it says here is the patience of the saints. Here are they which keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. I am sure you were also told that if you try to keep God's commandments it means you do not have faith in God. Again not true according to that scripture.

Thanks, I know who I think they are but up until I started becoming Torah observant...I thought they meant Jews. But, since many on here claim that you are under a curse if you follow the law (which I do in obedience NOT TO obtain righteousness..but, simply because I believe YHWH made the earth and He knows the best rules to live by), I was trying to see how people reconcile that with them "keeping the testimony of Jesus".

 

[mrs94]

It depends on what commandments one is talking about. Are you talking about the 10 Cs which are not the ones referred to in the quoted passage.

If you think or demand that it is the 10 Cs; I would like you to show why you think that. I believe I can show why they are not the 10 Cs. I will do so only after you say why you think they are with Scripture.

bugkiller

Which commandments do you speak of coming from the passage then? The MOTB which is singulair? Commandments is plural in this scipture.

 

[Barraco]

If I'm not mistaken, the Gentiles were told by the apostles that they were not obligated to get circumcised, which was ordered by the Law. It was considered a prerequisite to get circumcised in order to enter the Abrahamic Covenant.

But Paul shows in Galatians 3:13 that such a requirement is no longer necessary.

 

[mrs94]

If I'm not mistaken, the Gentiles were told by the apostles that they were not obligated to get circumcised, which was ordered by the Law. It was considered a prerequisite to get circumcised in order to enter the Abrahamic Covenant.

But Paul shows in Galatians 3:13 that such a requirement is no longer necessary.

Yes, you are correct in a sense.., under the old convenant, you had to follow Jewish laws and traditions to become a part of Israel. The early "Christian" leaders, who were Jewish, did not know exactly what to do with Gentiles. Did they need to become Jewish first before accepting Christ? This is what Paul and the others were standing against. People can be saved as they are and then start to learn the ways of God...not the other way around in which the legalists tried ordain it. However, scripture states that Timothy WAS circumsized. But, again, this was after he had been saved.

You have to remember that the Jews knew God's ways inside and out and Gentiles had no clue. Gentiles needed to be shown the Truth in love and not forced into legalistic bondage...which is what the Circumcision Party was trying to do.

Gentiles were given 4 things (to begin with) that they had to abstain from before being able to fellowship with the Jews in the synagogues and/or Temple...THEN, they would learn the rest:

Acts 15:
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

But, beside all of that...I'm trying to understad Rev 12:17

 

[Barraco]

Yes, you are correct in a sense.., under the old convenant, you had to follow Jewish laws and traditions to become a part of Israel. The early "Christian" leaders, who were Jewish, did not know exactly what to do with Gentiles. Did they need to become Jewish first before accepting Christ? This is what Paul and the others were standing against. People can be saved as they are and then start to learn the ways of God...not the other way around in which the legalists tried ordain it. However, scripture states that Timothy WAS circumsized. But, again, this was after he had been saved.

You have to remember that the Jews knew God's ways inside and out and Gentiles had no clue. Gentiles needed to be shown the Truth in love and not forced into legalistic bondage...which is what the Circumcision Party was trying to do.

Gentiles were given 4 things (to begin with) that they had to abstain from before being able to fellowship with the Jews in the synagogues and/or Temple...THEN, they would learn the rest:

Acts 15:
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

But, beside all of that...I'm trying to understad Rev 12:17

The story line shows the elect of Israel, the woman (Gen. 37:8-10) in exile (labor; Micah 4:9-10) in Babylon.

So its a story line that dates before Jesus.

The dragon is the Gentile kingdoms from Babylon to Rome. In the midst of that time, we see Greece persecuting the Jews (casting down stars; Daniel 8:10.)

The Jesus is born, the manchild who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron (Psalm 2:7-9.)

After He was caught up to heaven, the remnant fled Jerusalem and Judea. Then the Romans and Jews persecuted the saints heavily until the war in Judea broke out. That was what was meant by war in heaven and that is why the dragon was called Satan. Its a reference to when Satan persecuted Job in effort to get him to curse the LORD. But the apostles and many disciples did not love their lives even unto death. So Satan was cast out of heaven and the remnant were sealed.

After the persecution subsided, the dragon returns to the scene in pursuit of the remnant. This is the war in Judea. Then the dragon is referred to as a serpent, referring back to Genesis 3:1. This points to when the Jewish rebellion leaders started lying about the war and promising deliverance to those who returned to Jerusalem to fight. The passover crowd was allowed in but never granted the ability to check out by either Vespasian or John of Gischala.

So the serpent spewed lies, but the elect fled Judea, rather than stayed (Matthew 24:15-27, Luke 21:20-24.) So the remnant fled to the Gentiles, possibly inferred by the seven churches in Asia Minor. There, they spread the Gospel and produced great fruit, converting thousands at a time.

Then the Romans, by God's orders, stopped the flood waters of lies by locking the Jews in Jerusalem during the passover and then destroyed the Jewish rebels and burned their city (Matthew 22:7) like God destroyed the rebellion at Korah (Numbers 36:9-11.)

Then, seeing that the remnant was saved by Christ from the destruction of their fellow Jews, the Roman Empire made war against the offspring of Israel's remnant elect, the great multitude of Gentile converts.

""Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance." And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them." (Matthew 21:33-36, 38-45 ESV)

 

[mrs94]

Then, seeing that the remnant was saved by Christ from the destruction of their fellow Jews, the Roman Empire made war against the offspring of Israel's remnant elect, the great multitude of Gentile converts.

I hate to just pick one thing out and keep harping on it...but Rev 12:17 still infers that these Gentiles were following Torah. However, we'll just keep going in circles about "which commandments"...so, I'm not sure this is even fruitful.