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Revealing the Love of God
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<blockquote data-quote="TheBear" data-source="post: 216392" data-attributes="member: 254"><p>First, let me just say that the Old Testament deals with governments, quite a bit, and the New Testament deals mostly with individuals. There are a couple of references to government in the New Testament, but they basically say the same thing, that is that the governments are ordained of God, and Jesus briefly alluded to government when He was asked the question about paying taxes. He basically said, "Give unto Ceaser, that which is Ceaser's, and give unto God, that which is God's." Other than those references, the New Tesatment, and Jesus Himself, did not really speak on governments and the military.</p><p></p><p>So, a distinction needs to be made between the heart of the individual Christian, and the role and responsibilities of the government.</p><p></p><p>Let's take a look at some scripture that goes to great lenghts, detailing the armies of the tribes of Israel, down to the exact number.</p><p></p><p>Numbers 2:3-34</p><p></p><p><strong>3 On the east side, toward the rising of the sun, those of the standard of the forces with Judah shall camp according to their armies; and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be the leader of the children of Judah." 4 And his army was numbered at seventy-four thousand six hundred. 5 "Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Issachar, and Nethanel the son of Zuar shall be the leader of the children of Issachar." 6 And his army was numbered at fifty-four thousand four hundred. 7 "Then comes the tribe of Zebulun, and Eliab the son of Helon shall be the leader of the children of Zebulun." 8 And his army was numbered at fifty-seven thousand four hundred. 9 "All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Judah, one hundred and eighty-six thousand four hundred--these shall break camp first. 10 "On the south side shall be the standard of the forces with Reuben according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur." 11 And his army was numbered at forty-six thousand five hundred. 12 "Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Simeon, and the leader of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai." 13 And his army was numbered at fifty-nine thousand three hundred. 14 "Then comes the tribe of Gad, and the leader of the children of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel." F2 15 And his army was numbered at forty-five thousand six hundred and fifty. 16 "All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Reuben, one hundred and fifty-one thousand four hundred and fifty--they shall be the second to break camp. 17 And the tabernacle of meeting shall move out with the camp of the Levites in the middle of the camps; as they camp, so they shall move out, everyone in his place, by their standards. 18 "On the west side shall be the standard of the forces with Ephraim according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud." 19 And his army was numbered at forty thousand five hundred. 20 "Next to him comes the tribe of Manasseh, and the leader of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur." 21 And his army was numbered at thirty-two thousand two hundred. 22 "Then comes the tribe of Benjamin, and the leader of the children of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni." 23 And his army was numbered at thirty-five thousand four hundred. 24 "All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Ephraim, one hundred and eight thousand one hundred--they shall be the third to break camp. 25 "The standard of the forces with Dan shall be on the north side according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai." 26 And his army was numbered at sixty-two thousand seven hundred. 27 "Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Asher, and the leader of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran." 28 And his army was numbered at forty-one thousand five hundred. 29 "Then comes the tribe of Naphtali, and the leader of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan." 30 And his army was numbered at fifty-three thousand four hundred. 31 "All who were numbered of the forces with Dan, one hundred and fifty-seven thousand six hundred--they shall break camp last, with their standards." 32 These are the ones who were numbered of the children of Israel by their fathers' houses. All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces were six hundred and three thousand five hundred and fifty. 33 But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel, just as the Lord commanded Moses. 34 Thus the children of Israel did according to all that the Lord commanded Moses; so they camped by their standards and so they broke camp, each one by his family, according to their fathers' houses.</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>Now, the following scripture deals with the sovereignty of a nation, and how plunderers are delt with.</p><p></p><p>1 Samuel 14:47-48</p><p></p><p><strong>47 So Saul established his sovereignty over Israel, and fought against all his enemies on every side, against Moab, against the people of Ammon, against Edom, against the kings of Zobah, and against the Philistines. Wherever he turned, he harassed them. 48 <em>And he gathered an army and attacked the Amalekites, and delivered Israel from the hands of those who plundered them</em>.</strong></p><p></p><p>A reference is made in Hebrews.</p><p></p><p>Hebrews 11:32-34</p><p></p><p><strong>32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, <em>became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens</em>.</strong> </p><p></p><p>I'm just getting warmed up, here. Give me some more time, and I will compile more scripture on this, and will show you how your quotes are out of context with what you are purporting.</p><p></p><p>By the way, you still need to address my filler question. Should police departments have guns?</p><p></p><p></p><p>John</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TheBear, post: 216392, member: 254"] First, let me just say that the Old Testament deals with governments, quite a bit, and the New Testament deals mostly with individuals. There are a couple of references to government in the New Testament, but they basically say the same thing, that is that the governments are ordained of God, and Jesus briefly alluded to government when He was asked the question about paying taxes. He basically said, "Give unto Ceaser, that which is Ceaser's, and give unto God, that which is God's." Other than those references, the New Tesatment, and Jesus Himself, did not really speak on governments and the military. So, a distinction needs to be made between the heart of the individual Christian, and the role and responsibilities of the government. Let's take a look at some scripture that goes to great lenghts, detailing the armies of the tribes of Israel, down to the exact number. Numbers 2:3-34 [b]3 On the east side, toward the rising of the sun, those of the standard of the forces with Judah shall camp according to their armies; and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be the leader of the children of Judah." 4 And his army was numbered at seventy-four thousand six hundred. 5 "Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Issachar, and Nethanel the son of Zuar shall be the leader of the children of Issachar." 6 And his army was numbered at fifty-four thousand four hundred. 7 "Then comes the tribe of Zebulun, and Eliab the son of Helon shall be the leader of the children of Zebulun." 8 And his army was numbered at fifty-seven thousand four hundred. 9 "All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Judah, one hundred and eighty-six thousand four hundred--these shall break camp first. 10 "On the south side shall be the standard of the forces with Reuben according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur." 11 And his army was numbered at forty-six thousand five hundred. 12 "Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Simeon, and the leader of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai." 13 And his army was numbered at fifty-nine thousand three hundred. 14 "Then comes the tribe of Gad, and the leader of the children of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel." F2 15 And his army was numbered at forty-five thousand six hundred and fifty. 16 "All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Reuben, one hundred and fifty-one thousand four hundred and fifty--they shall be the second to break camp. 17 And the tabernacle of meeting shall move out with the camp of the Levites in the middle of the camps; as they camp, so they shall move out, everyone in his place, by their standards. 18 "On the west side shall be the standard of the forces with Ephraim according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud." 19 And his army was numbered at forty thousand five hundred. 20 "Next to him comes the tribe of Manasseh, and the leader of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur." 21 And his army was numbered at thirty-two thousand two hundred. 22 "Then comes the tribe of Benjamin, and the leader of the children of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni." 23 And his army was numbered at thirty-five thousand four hundred. 24 "All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Ephraim, one hundred and eight thousand one hundred--they shall be the third to break camp. 25 "The standard of the forces with Dan shall be on the north side according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai." 26 And his army was numbered at sixty-two thousand seven hundred. 27 "Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Asher, and the leader of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran." 28 And his army was numbered at forty-one thousand five hundred. 29 "Then comes the tribe of Naphtali, and the leader of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan." 30 And his army was numbered at fifty-three thousand four hundred. 31 "All who were numbered of the forces with Dan, one hundred and fifty-seven thousand six hundred--they shall break camp last, with their standards." 32 These are the ones who were numbered of the children of Israel by their fathers' houses. All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces were six hundred and three thousand five hundred and fifty. 33 But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel, just as the Lord commanded Moses. 34 Thus the children of Israel did according to all that the Lord commanded Moses; so they camped by their standards and so they broke camp, each one by his family, according to their fathers' houses.[/b] Now, the following scripture deals with the sovereignty of a nation, and how plunderers are delt with. 1 Samuel 14:47-48 [b]47 So Saul established his sovereignty over Israel, and fought against all his enemies on every side, against Moab, against the people of Ammon, against Edom, against the kings of Zobah, and against the Philistines. Wherever he turned, he harassed them. 48 [i]And he gathered an army and attacked the Amalekites, and delivered Israel from the hands of those who plundered them[/i].[/b] A reference is made in Hebrews. Hebrews 11:32-34 [b]32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, [i]became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens[/i].[/b] I'm just getting warmed up, here. Give me some more time, and I will compile more scripture on this, and will show you how your quotes are out of context with what you are purporting. By the way, you still need to address my filler question. Should police departments have guns? John [/QUOTE]
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