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Revealing the data behind the science of evolution

juvenissun

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So, do you, or do you not believe that God (or Dawkins) exists?

You do not have to make decision on Dawkins. But can you afford not to make decision on God?
 
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The Cadet

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Each author describes God from differing viewpoints yet the over all results are amazingly consistent.

Beg your pardon? The god of the new testament seems to be a completely different beast from the god of the old testament in a number of substantial ways.


...Okay, let me get this straight.

You're seriously questioning that sensory data is the key to understanding the world around us?

Okay, do me a favor. I want you to put on a blindfold, earmuffs, nose plugs, a ball gag, and find some way to effectively numb your hands, then, once you've done that, click this link, read it, and type what is stated there. Then, for an encore, see if you can can walk through a populated area like that without getting run over.

Or maybe I'm the exception, and you've found some way to access the outside world that doesn't rely on your senses.

I have explained previously on numerous occasions that the reason we privilege empiricism over other epistemologies is because empiricism demonstrably works (indeed, to the point where I have yet to discover any reliable epistemology not based on empiricism, despite numerous people, including you, claiming to have such an epistemology and my continuing demands to hear about it). But here, you seem to be outright rejecting sensory data as a key to the world around you. That's nonsensical in the extreme.
 
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Zosimus

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All I'm doing at this point is demonstrating how consilience works. Do you disagree that the consilience of the billion samples indicates a high probability that there are no blue marbles?
I do indeed disagree! The only reason your coinsilience appears to work is because there is a low number of marbles in the bag in comparison to the number of samples taken. For gravity, for example, there are believed to be approximately 10^80 atoms in the universe, each of which interacts with every other atom every second of every day. One billion samples may well be insufficient.

Does the consilience of the billion data points with the marbles give us useful information? Yes or no? Are you willing to admit that consilence, as a method of garnering information, has definitely not been refuted?
Useful in the sense that some theories can be eliminated. However, the remaining theories (an infinite number) are all equally likely given the principle of maximum entropy.

Why do logic deniers always insist that data are important, conveniently ignoring the logical fallacies on which their refuted worldview is based? How do you resolve the problem of induction? Are you a Bayesian epistemologist? What about the tacking paradox? What about Hempel's Paradox? What about the New Riddle of Induction?

 
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Zosimus

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Concrete example, please, on how an infinite number of theories are generated.
There are various methods, but Gaussian Elimination is the most common. If the problem is underdetermined then an infinite number of solutions can be generated.
 
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Zosimus

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You have played right into my hands.

You see, you have made a rational argument that empiricism is necessary. In short, you think that logic tells us that empiricism is superior to logic. Do you seriously not see the contradiction in this claim? Rationalism can be rationally justified, but empiricism cannot justify itself. It must always resort to rationalism for a justification. Thus, empiricism must be subordinated to rationalism.

No, rationalism demonstrably works whereas empiricism is based on logical fallacies. The only way that sense data make any sense is when it is placed into a rational framework.
 
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46AND2

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Why do you keep trying to jump ahead and presume to know how I'm going to use consilience as it relates to evolution? Is it not more likely that there are no blue marbles after a billion samples than after one sample? Is it not more likely that there are no blue marbles after 100 samples than one?


Useful in the sense that some theories can be eliminated.

Ding! Ding! Ding!


I have stated nothing about my worldview at this point. Nor have I even begun to address how consilience and nested hierarchies apply to evolution. Can you please stop jumping ahead, and follow along with the conversation?
 
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Zosimus

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Fine. As long as you and I agree that the data are irrelevant, you can present whatever data you'd like.
 
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46AND2

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Fine. As long as you and I agree that the data are irrelevant, you can present whatever data you'd like.

Irrelevant? You said yourself it can be useful for eliminating theories, right?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Maybe I should have been clearer. I asked for an example that used evolution for an example. Yes scientists make errors at times. You have failed to show any errors or even the application of your Raven's argument against the theory of evolution.
 
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Zosimus

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Irrelevant? You said yourself it can be useful for eliminating theories, right?
Sure. Data can reduce you from an infinite number of theories to an infinite number of theories. Some infinities are larger than others. What's your point?
 
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Zosimus

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Maybe I should have been clearer. I asked for an example that used evolution for an example. Yes scientists make errors at times. You have failed to show any errors or even the application of your Raven's argument against the theory of evolution.
I've already answered this on another thread.
 
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SkyWriting

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It does not "Prove", it only adds additional data.
 
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SkyWriting

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Then you have proven you are a genius at swindling a paycheck from
the QC department because there was only 200 total marbles total and
you've wasted a day on this project.
 
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pat34lee

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I see some potential problems here.
How can you prove anyone is Richard Dawkins?
What if the real one lies and claims to be someone else?
What if another person or persons claim to be him?
Which Richard Dawkins is real if several have the same name?
 
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pat34lee

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I have stated nothing about my worldview at this point. Nor have I even begun to address how consilience and nested hierarchies apply to evolution. Can you please stop jumping ahead, and follow along with the conversation?

I have the same problem sometimes when I try to show logical steps.
Someone always wants to jump straight to the conclusion, and it's
usually the wrong one.
 
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46AND2

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Zos,

I'm interested in hearing your views about philosophy as it is not an area I have spent a lot of time studying...however, what I object to, is your presumptions which do not, at present have relevance to the discussion. You assume that I am going to argue in the same manner as the countless other posters you have encountered before, and you jump the gun. Your arguments will have relevance later in the discussion, and I'd love to hear them then. For the time being, can we please just stick with the topics as they come up? For example you have said that my marbles scenario APPEARS to work because of sample size. Can you please elaborate on why you use the term "appears" rather than stating that what I have described so far works?

Sky Writing,

I apologize that things are going too slowly for you. But it is going to be more of the same, so maybe this isn't the thread for you. I'm doing this for my benefit as much as anybody else.
 
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SkyWriting

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Zosimus, I know that you love the Raven's Paradox, but it seems that you continually misapply towards the theory of evolution. Can you give a clear cut example of where and how it was applied by anyone here?

Were are not to refer to evolution.
 
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SkyWriting

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Sky Writing,
I apologize that things are going too slowly for you. But it is going to be more of the same, so maybe this isn't the thread for you. I'm doing this for my benefit as much as anybody else.

Odd, I don't have the thoughts you are apologizing for. But thanks for thinking of me.
I was just giving you a hard time for counting 200 marbles more than one time.
 
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