"Resurrection of the dead" through Reincarnation

cupid dave · Nov 28, 2011

Fireinfolding said:
WHO do other folks say I AM? And right there it shows the disciples saying SOME SAY Elias,...
Unless I missed something?

Because it shows very clearly that the disciples understood Jesus (in respects to Elias) to be speaking of John the baptist.

The point you miss is that at no time does Jesus specifically answer the question of who he is directly, beyond saying that he is the son of God, something even we have the power to be.

The disciples DID misunderstand that Jesus was saying john was the Elijah.

Remember that Jesus had just told Peter and John NOT to tell what they saw when Elijah had just left him in the metamorphosis called the transfiguration.

The pressure on Jesus to say he was The king who would save Israel from Rome with supernatural powers was immense.

We can read when Jesus says, "If,... if you will accept it,"... john was the beheaded Elijah.

If they insisted, then John who performed no miracles, prophesied no future events, explicitly denied he was ZElijah,... if they demand, then fine.

The idea here was not to divide the believers, but to sent them out to build the church.
This is hardly different from the present day denominational differences that are immaterial to the spread of the Gospels of the Father, Son, and holy ghost over all the world.

Huram Abi · Nov 28, 2011

cupid dave said:
..."And he [john] shall go before [christ], him,( i.e.; the one who goes) in the spirit and power of Elias,"...

.

Do we really have to go into a grammar lesson here?

Root sentence:

He (John) shall go.

Modifiers to root sentence:

1. Before him
2. in the spirit and power (of Elias)

Who shall go? John.

When shall John go? Before him (Jesus).

How shall John go? In the spirit and power of Elias.

The sentence could be reconstructed with one or both of the modifiers at the beginning:

In the spirit and power of Elias, John shall go before him.

-or-

Before him, John shall go in the spirit and power of Elias.

-or-

Before him, in the spirit and power of Elias, John shall go.

-or-

In the spirit and power of Elias, before him, John shall go.

In every instance, there is only one subject and one verb: John who is going.

Huram Abi · Nov 28, 2011

cupid dave said:
The point you miss is that at no time does Jesus specifically answer the question of who he is directly, beyond saying that he is the son of God, something even we have the power to be.

The disciples DID misunderstand that Jesus was saying john was the Elijah.

Remember that Jesus had just told Peter and John NOT to tell what they saw when Elijah had just left him in the metamorphosis called the transfiguration.

The pressure on Jesus to say he was The king who would save Israel from Rome with supernatural powers was immense.

We can read when Jesus says, "If,... if you will accept it,"... john was the beheaded Elijah.

If they insisted, then John who performed no miracles, prophesied no future events, explicitly denied he was ZElijah,... if they demand, then fine.

So you are calling Jesus a liar! Peer pressure forced him to say something that wasn't true.

If you actually believe that, then you can no longer go around saying Jesus is Truth personified.

Fireinfolding · Nov 28, 2011

cupid dave said:
Yes, "This day is this scripture fulfilled" because there was Christ to preach "the coming of the great day of the LORD," the resurrection and building of the new temple in "3 days."

He mentions the days of Elias a few verses down after quoting Isaiah (which is why I quoted the whole thing) and the three and a half years the heavens were shut up, whereas they opened unto Christ at the baptism of John.

There seems to be no other plave in the OT which specifically prophecies by name one who is to be expected as the "one coming," except Mal 4:5, ie, Elijah:

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, andthe heart of the children to their fathers,lest I come and smite the earth with a curse

Of John the baptist
Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias,to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Remember that John knew he was NOT the Elijah, so we can see that he inquires about the one expected to come
Luke 7:19

I would think he would deny it otherwise folks would probrobly turn it into a reincarnation message, His name was John (not Elias) the law and the prophets prophesied until John, the law having a shadow of the things "to come" but not the very image of things, Jesus said John was the Elias for "to come" the angel clarifies it, coming in the spirit and power of Elias TO TURN the hearts, as His baptism was unto REPENTANCE.

And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

Yes, he was asking about another but He told them (Johns disciples) to GO tell John what you see.

Though I am sorta amazed you dont compare Elisha (who follows after Elijah with a double portion of His spirit) because if Elijah failed to turn the hearts it speaks right after LEST I come and curse and smite the earth with a curse and we at least Elisha cursed 42 children of the city (in the name of the LORD)

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Still looking at this though, just surprised you might not have run it that way (the one who follows after) so to speak. Nigh to the cursing sorta thing

cupid dave · Nov 28, 2011

Huram Abi said:
So you are calling Jesus a liar! Peer pressure forced him to say something that wasn't true.

If you actually believe that, then you can no longer go around saying Jesus is Truth personified.

1) I am glad that as a Jew you find the only defense for this idea is the New Testament which sort of reverses the usually Jewish argument that the source is immaterial.

I welcome that you are encouraging Christians to re-exmine the NT and and think about this matter.

2) No, Jesus said, "if"...

I believe he was saying that he could not change their minds, because only "if" in their mind, john was Elijah, would Rome be defeated.

Notice that he ended by saying that John was the least in heaven however, so hardly was he agreeing.

What we read is that the matter was undecided in 32AD, so it is hardly unique that I raise the discussion here.

Fireinfolding · Nov 28, 2011

Peer pressure?

That was cute, but its sure not sitting with me

John denied he was a prophet Jesus said more then a prophet

Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Huram Abi · Nov 28, 2011

He said the least was the greatest, did he not?

grasping the after wind · Nov 28, 2011

AFAIK there are no dead that are ressurected in reincarnation. Only a living spirit transmigrating to another living physical entity after leaving a physical entity as it dies. Unless my understanding of reincarnation is incorrect then "the resurrection of the dead" must mean something very different than reincarnation.

Fireinfolding · Nov 28, 2011

cupid dave said:
1)
Notice that he ended by saying that John was the least in heaven however, so hardly was he agreeing.

It says...

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Fireinfolding · Nov 28, 2011

cupid dave said:
The point you miss is that at no time does Jesus specifically answer the question of who he is directly, beyond saying that he is the son of God, something even we have the power to be.

The disciples DID misunderstand that Jesus was saying john was the Elijah.

Remember that Jesus had just told Peter and John NOT to tell what they saw when Elijah had just left him in the metamorphosis called the transfiguration.

The pressure on Jesus to say he was The king who would save Israel from Rome with supernatural powers was immense.

We can read when Jesus says, "If,... if you will accept it,"... john was the beheaded Elijah.

If they insisted, then John who performed no miracles, prophesied no future events, explicitly denied he was ZElijah,... if they demand, then fine.

The idea here was not to divide the believers, but to sent them out to build the church.
This is hardly different from the present day denominational differences that are immaterial to the spread of the Gospels of the Father, Son, and holy ghost over all the world.

I believe Jesus

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed.Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

When they misunderstand something its written like this...

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Fireinfolding · Nov 28, 2011

Psalm 56:5 Every day they wrest my words: all their thoughts are against me for evil.

Thats sorta cute

Huram Abi · Nov 28, 2011

cupid dave said:
1) I am glad that as a Jew you find the only defense for this idea is the New Testament which sort of reverses the usually Jewish argument that the source is immaterial.

Who said I was a Jew?

cupid dave · Nov 29, 2011

I have added my remarks in brackets right within the context of your oiwn quote so you can better see my point.

Fireinfolding said:
Mal 4:6 And he (Elijah) shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, andthe heart of the children to their fathers,lest I come and smite the earth with a curse

Of John the baptist
Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him (he who is) in the spirit and power of Elias, (The Christ), to turn the hearts (the minds and thinking) of the (fore) fathers to the (present) children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord (Rev 5:5).

I compare Elisha to Peter.

Both had proclaimed their faithfulness to their master 3 times.

ie:
2 Kings 2:2 I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel
2 Kings 2:4 I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho
2 Kings 2:6 I will not leave thee. And they two went on

John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time,... "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, "Lovest thou me?"

Both Elijah and Christ appointed a successor, ( Elisha, by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ):

ie:

2 Kings 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Both were given a "key" or " symbolic "mantle" of empowerment.

ie:
1 Kings 19:19 So he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth: and Elijah passed by him, and cast his mantle upon him.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

cupid dave · Nov 29, 2011

Huram Abi said:
Who said I was a Jew?

Are you denying that you are oppose the New Testament and do not accept Christ as either the Elijah or the messoah, son of David?

Be homest and admit it.
If Christ is Tg\he Elijah, you jews who denied him will mourn as if an only son was crucified:

10 ...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

cupid dave · Nov 29, 2011

grasping the after wind said:
AFAIK there are no dead that are ressurected in reincarnation. Only a living spirit transmigrating to another living physical entity after leaving a physical entity as it dies. Unless my understanding of reincarnation is incorrect then "the resurrection of the dead" must mean something very different than reincarnation.

Yes, I agree.

What will evolve is the ability to remember stored information in our Unconscious mind, information about previous experiences in the past.

We will have access to the whole phylogenetic memories of the species much in the same way that instincts from those past experiences now come to our mind.

Our bodies will be different, the one Collective Unconscious mind will be open to us all:

This is what Paul meant when he said we see darkly now, but in the future, face to face, we will know.

Huram Abi · Nov 29, 2011

cupid dave said:
Are you denying that you are oppose the New Testament and do not accept Christ as either the Elijah or the messoah, son of David?

Be homest and admit it.
If Christ is Tg\he Elijah, you jews who denied him will mourn as if an only son was crucified:

.

It isn't Jews that reject your claim about Jesus being Elijah. The Jews aren't your audience. It is Christians that reject your claim, and for good reason.

Your claim is in direct contradiction with the evidence.

I suspect by the responses you get when you make this claim, that you haven't turned one Christian into one of your disciples. And you've been doing this, what 10 years now?

So all Christians are Jews, is that it? Or we aren't "True" Christians because we don't cater to your messiah complex?

And finally you come to the threat of it: "Believe that Christ was Elijah or face damnation." "You Jews sure are going to be sorry."

Is that supposed to make me compliant with your anti-scriptural claim? Forget it.

Fireinfolding · Nov 29, 2011

Dont matter how many times I rewrite it

John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Of John the angel said of him...

Luke 1:17 And he (John) shall go before him (The Lord)in the spirit and power of Elias,to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Mat 17:3 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Just as...

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things

Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.

Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee

John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

John 13:25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feetI am not worthy to loose.

Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

Luke 1:17 And he (John) shall go before him (The Lord) in the spirit and power of Elias,to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Luke 9:18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

Luke 9:19 They answering said, John the Baptist but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.

Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

Likewise the same is shown here...

Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And that was in contrast to Elias

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

The very blessed testimony which is given of The Father

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

cupid dave · Nov 29, 2011

Huram Abi said:
It isn't Jews that reject your claim about Jesus being Elijah. The Jews aren't your audience. It is Christians that reject your claim, and for good reason.

Your claim is in direct contradiction with the evidence.

I suspect by the responses you get when you make this claim, that you haven't turned one Christian into one of your disciples. And you've been doing this, what 10 years now?

So all Christians are Jews, is that it? Or we aren't "True" Christians because we don't cater to your messiah complex?

And finally you come to the threat of it: "Believe that Christ was Elijah or face damnation." "You Jews sure are going to be sorry."

Is that supposed to make me compliant with your anti-scriptural claim? Forget it.

?

What is your point,... that the Truth is dependent upon some democratic response to sanction it?

Or, do you suggest that I discontinue posting my book report on the Bible because those with their own doctrines have not recanted and joined me?

cupid dave · Nov 29, 2011

Fireinfolding said:
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

The very blessed testimony which is given of The Father

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Do you think that Elijah is NOT a son of God when even you have the power to be a son of God???

If you read what Elijah did in 800BC you will see short of the crucifixion, he pout did the second visit in regard to miracles and works.

Any christian who compares these two events will see that mocking Elijah as less than Christ is based on poor reading comprehension.

Fireinfolding · Nov 29, 2011

cupid dave said:
Do you think that Elijah is NOT a son of God when even you have the power to be a son of God???

If you read what Elijah did in 800BC you will see short of the crucifixion, he pout did the second visit in regard to miracles and works.

Any christian who compares these two events will see that mocking Elijah as less than Christ is based on poor reading comprehension.

He shows what some same and the ones blessed of the Father say

Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

The very blessed testimony which is given of The Father

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

He did not say, Thou art Elijah (SOME men were saying that among others) He is distinguishing between the testimony of men and that given of the Father

"Resurrection of the dead" through Reincarnation

cupid dave

Guest

Huram Abi

Guest

Huram Abi

Guest

Well-Known Member

cupid dave

Guest

Well-Known Member

Huram Abi

Guest

That's grasping after the wind

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Huram Abi

Guest

cupid dave

Guest

cupid dave

Guest

cupid dave

Guest

Huram Abi

Guest

Well-Known Member

cupid dave

Guest

cupid dave

Guest

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency