"Resurrection of the dead" through Reincarnation

[Brad Watson Miami 1]

1 Corinthians 15 NIV 1984

I Corinthians 15:20-28
The Resurrection of the Dead
>>
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."c Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
>>
The Resurrection Body
>>
35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed– 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." (Isaiah 25:8)
55"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The above was written by Saul/Paul, who was not one of the original disciples and never spoke to Jesus son of Joseph before he was crucified. Jesus, after his crucifixion, did confront Saul on the road to Damascus and 'freaked him out'. Jesus changed Saul's name to Paul and the experience changed Saul from a persecutor of the first Messianic Jews, to Paul being the primary apostle to the Gentiles.

-----​

Jesus never wrote anything down, or, should I say, not that we know of. (A couple scholars believe he wrote the Gospel of John.) 'Reincarnation' is a term that originated in the 19th century. Transmigration of the soul and metempsychosis are English terms that are much older. Many peoples in Jesus' time believed in a rebirth as human on Earth. The mystical Jews - later known as Kaballists - believed in reincarnation and believed the soul of Moses was reincarnated in each new generation. The Greek Pythagoreans taught it to those in their circle. Socrates may not have committed suicide over a point of politics and a strong devotion to the truth had he not been convinced of reincarnation. (And it appears he returned as Aristotle.)

The Mithras cult - practiced by many soldiers in the Roman Army - believed in reincarnation. The Egyptians certainly believed in it, as did those that practiced the ancient mysteries, i.e. Babylonians, Persians, Sumerians, Druids, and others.

The Early Church was split on the question of reincarnation. Clement and Origin of Alexandria taught it and taught that Jesus taught it. Here are three good books I can recommend that detail this: Reincarnation - The Missing Link In Christianity by Elizabeth Claire Prophet, The Phoenix Fire Mystery , and Reincarnation in Christianity by Geddes MacGregor.

It wasn't until (St.) Augustine came along in the 4th century, repented from his sinful ways, and then on his own, declared, "There are no previous lives to blame for one's ailments and low position in society, it's all Eve's fault" (paraphrased). Yes, it was Augustine who coined the term "original sin"; you won't find it in the Bible and rabbis don't teach it! You will find Bible references to "you reap what you sow".

Money was/is the guide for many doctrinal decisions throughout the centuries in all religions. The ancient Egyptian priests asked, "How can we get people to give us large amounts of money to mummify their corpse if they solely believe in the soul being eternal and receiving rebirth in a new body? No, we must fight that teaching! We'll promote the eternal soul and the afterlife in the same body. That way, we can charge exurberent prices for preserving the dead body and its elaborate burial" (anecdotal). This misguided tradition was then passed on to the Israelites who passed it on to the Christians.

The Christ returning and the synchronized "resurrection of the dead" is correct. But Paul's explanation of it is flawed!

---INCOMPLETE---

-----​

Seal #7​

Reincarna†ion †heory & its 21 Principles includes 10 ways to track a soul + scientific laws including energy, information, & consciousness can’t be destroyed, only transferred.
Life (like all matter & energy) is both waves & particles. Natural selection/“survival of the fittest” assures that human souls that help the global system will return as human.
Luck 100 = karma 4 + modesty 1 × [desire 4 + actions 4 + ability 4 + contribution 4 + blessings 4]
George Washington → Robert E. Lee → Eisenhower, FDR → Barack Obama,
Abigail Adams → Mary Lincoln → Marilyn Monroe → Janet Jackson58,
Bernard de Clairvaux → Leonardo Fibonacci → Da Vinci → Galileo → Ben21 Franklin → Lincoln → Einstein →


- Brad Watson, Miami
teacher

 

[The Gnostic]

I do believe that the "resurrection" is actually refering to "re-incarnation".Reincarnation was accepted and taught up until we get to Christianity.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Luke 9:18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

Luke 9:19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.

Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

The people said John, Elias, or perhaps an older prophet risen again (which could be perceived as reincarnation) but Jesus didnt affirm what the people said.

 

[The Gnostic]

Luke 9:18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

Luke 9:19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.

Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

The people said John, Elias, or perhaps an older prophet risen again (which could be perceived as reincarnation) but Jesus didnt affirm what the people said.

But Jesus did refer to his cousin "John the Baptist" as Elijah.If Jesus was speaking in the literal sense then John was Elijah reincarnated.If speaking in a metaphorical sense then we can rule out reincarnation.It is all based on belief and faith with no way of knowing for sure wouldn't you say?

 

[Fireinfolding]

But Jesus did refer to his cousin "John the Baptist" as Elijah.If Jesus was speaking in the literal sense then John was Elijah reincarnated.If speaking in a metaphorical sense then we can rule out reincarnation.It is all based on belief and faith with no way of knowing for sure wouldn't you say?

We were speaking of this on Gods Word's thread, the scripture references are there. The law having a shadow of the good things to come and not the very image of things even as the law and the prophets were until John. It speaks of him going forth in the Spirit and power Elijah, John himself is shown as filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb. John denying he was Elijah (personally) however Jesus affirming of whom it was speaking of in truth.

Unless one sees it as Elijahs personal spirit and power, whereas John is shown being filled with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Fireinfolding]

For example...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things

Of John

Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

John filled with the Holy Ghost

2Kings 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

Double portion of thy spirit is spoken of.

 

[ElijahW]

The Early Church was split on the question of reincarnation. Clement and Origin of Alexandria taught it and taught that Jesus taught it. Here are three good books I can recommend that detail this: Reincarnation - The Missing Link In Christianity by Elizabeth Claire Prophet, The Phoenix Fire Mystery , and Reincarnation in Christianity by Geddes MacGregor.

I don't wish to read the books but I would be interested in the quotes from the Church Fathers, in order to look at the works of Origen and Clement, that are being referenced.

 

[msmorality]

The above was written by Saul/Paul, who was not one of the original disciples and never spoke to Jesus son of Joseph before he was crucified. Jesus, after his crucifixion, did confront Saul on the road to Damascus and 'freaked him out'. Jesus changed Saul's name to Paul and the experience changed Saul from a persecutor of the first Messianic Jews, to Paul being the primary apostle to the Gentiles.

-----​

Jesus never wrote anything down, or, should I say, not that we know of. (A couple scholars believe he wrote the Gospel of John.) 'Reincarnation' is a term that originated in the 19th century. Transmigration of the soul and metempsychosis are English terms that are much older. Many peoples in Jesus' time believed in a rebirth as human on Earth. The mystical Jews - later known as Kaballists - believed in reincarnation and believed the soul of Moses was reincarnated in each new generation. The Greek Pythagoreans taught it to those in their circle. Socrates may not have committed suicide over a point of politics and a strong devotion to the truth had he not been convinced of reincarnation. (And it appears he returned as Aristotle.)

The Mithras cult - practiced by many soldiers in the Roman Army - believed in reincarnation. The Egyptians certainly believed in it, as did those that practiced the ancient mysteries, i.e. Babylonians, Persians, Sumerians, Druids, and others.

The Early Church was split on the question of reincarnation. Clement and Origin of Alexandria taught it and taught that Jesus taught it. Here are three good books I can recommend that detail this: Reincarnation - The Missing Link In Christianity by Elizabeth Claire Prophet, The Phoenix Fire Mystery , and Reincarnation in Christianity by Geddes MacGregor.

It wasn't until (St.) Augustine came along in the 4th century, repented from his sinful ways, and then on his own, declared, "There are no previous lives to blame for one's ailments and low position in society, it's all Eve's fault" (paraphrased). Yes, it was Augustine who coined the term "original sin"; you won't find it in the Bible and rabbis don't teach it! You will find Bible references to "you reap what you sow".

Money was/is the guide for many doctrinal decisions throughout the centuries in all religions. The ancient Egyptian priests asked, "How can we get people to give us large amounts of money to mummify their corpse if they solely believe in the soul being eternal and receiving rebirth in a new body? No, we must fight that teaching! We'll promote the eternal soul and the afterlife in the same body. That way, we can charge exurberent prices for preserving the dead body and its elaborate burial" (anecdotal). This misguided tradition was then passed on to the Israelites who passed it on to the Christians.

The Christ returning and the synchronized "resurrection of the dead" is correct. But Paul's explanation of it is flawed!

---INCOMPLETE---


- Brad Watson, Miami
teacher

Some early church fathers believed and taught in reincarnation. I tend to believe that the focus should be on this life, and the lessons needed here and now, rather than try to discover the past. More than likely we will life multiple lifetimes to grow as spiritually mature beings.

 

[cupid dave]

Luke 9:18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

Luke 9:19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.

Luke 9:20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

The people said John, Elias, or perhaps an older prophet risen again (which could be perceived as reincarnation) but Jesus didnt affirm what the people said.

But early on Jesus had tried to tell his own little neighborhood synagogue that he was the one that was to come, (Mal4:5), as he read from the book of Isaiah that referred to the return of Elijah.

Those people tried to kill him.

1) Luke 4:18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach...
... preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


2) We expected this from the Elijah when he would return:

Mal4:5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Isaiah 61

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings...

... To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;



//




So it is clear that the messiah does not tell us who he is, but it is up to us to say.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:20 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Luke 4:21 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

There he was quoting from the book of Isaiah, here is the other verse in Mal

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Of John the baptist it says the same....

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
　
Mat 17:3 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

　John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

 

[Fireinfolding]

John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Which would read...

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:20 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


　
　

 

[Huram Abi]

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:20 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Luke 4:21 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

There he was quoting from the book of Isaiah, here is the other verse in Mal

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Of John the baptist it says the same....

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
　
Mat 17:3 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

　John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Glad it makes sense to someone

 

[Huram Abi]

I think it makes sense to almost everyone.

All anyone need to do is read the converation between the angel Gabrial and John's father. Gabriel makes it clear before John or Jesus is born that John is Elijah.

 

[Huram Abi]

But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.


And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

 

[cupid dave]

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Which would read...


Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,...

....to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luke 4:20 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


　
　

Yes, "This day is this scripture fulfilled" because there was Christ to preach ""[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']the coming of the great[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] day of the LORD," the resurrection and building of the new temple in "3 days."[/FONT]


There seems to be no other plave in the OT which specifically prophecies by name one who is to be expected as the "one coming," except Mal 4:5, ie, Elijah:


Remember that John knew he was NOT the Elijah, so we can see that he inquires about the one expected to come
Luke 7:19
And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?






[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]

 

[Huram Abi]

Please refer to the post just above yours.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I think it makes sense to almost everyone.

All anyone need to do is read the converation between the angel Gabrial and John's father. Gabriel makes it clear before John or Jesus is born that John is Elijah.

When you compare everywhere it does, Jesus was already standing among them at the time of John (to make ready a people for the Lord). Even Jesus said John was the Elias who is for to come.

At least its noted when it come to Jesus, He specifically asks his disciples WHO do other folks say I AM? And right there it shows the disciples saying SOME SAY Elias, but then He asks who do YOU say I AM, and they sure didnt say Elias

Unless I missed something?

Because it shows very clearly that the disciples understood Jesus (in respects to Elias) to be speaking of John the baptist.

 

[cupid dave]

But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.


And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

..."And he [john] shall go before [christ], him,( i.e.; the one who goes) in the spirit and power of Elias,"...

Which is what happened.

It is not surprising that people are still unclear on this since at the time there were those who believed Christ was Elijah, and others, the massiah ben David, or others yet, just a new prophet, or such.

What honest christians need remember was that one reason Christ was not totally embraced was that the Jews demanded not Elijah, but the savior of their nation from Rpman domination, the king that was o actually come after Elijah came.

 

[Huram Abi]

And right there it shows the disciples saying SOME SAY Elias, but then He asks who do YOU say I AM, and they sure didnt say Elias

Unless I missed something?

Because it shows very clearly that the disciples understood Jesus (in respects to Elias) to be speaking of John the baptist.

And there is no reason to use the confusion regarding "some say Elias" to confirm that Jesus WAS Elijah because Jesus was also confused for John.

Does that mean that Jesus Was John? Of course not.