• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Resurrection, First Resurrection and New Birth

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
3,010
930
Africa
✟223,456.00
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nope. Do you reject it?

Jesus died physically and was resurrected physically. He is the firsfruits of them that died (same as "them that slept").

Please read my post #159 properly.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
3,010
930
Africa
✟223,456.00
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Apparently he doen't answer questions he cannot answer if those questions shine light on the error of his false assertions. Next he will be claiming you said things you never said (like he has done with me in your thread).
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
3,010
930
Africa
✟223,456.00
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It obviously doesn't clear up your confusion. They were made spiritually alive before they died by virtue of their spiritual birth from above. They had been beheaded physically. They did not need to be "resurrected spiritually". No one can be born of the Spirit more than once. They were resurrected physically when Christ had returned.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

shilohsfoal

Jacks or better to open
Jan 3, 2011
2,891
492
✟80,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single

You believe the new covenent gospel age started with those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark?

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, "Blessed are the dead--those who die in the Lord from this moment on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them."
 
Upvote 0

rwb

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2020
1,776
368
73
Branson
✟47,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

The New Covenant Gospel age began when Christ came and ushered in the Kingdom of Heaven that anyone may spiritually enter when he/she is born from above, or born of the Spirit. The Old Covenant faithful saints have part in the resurrection of Christ through promise. They looked forward to Messiah who would come, and now we who live after His coming look back to His cross.
 
Upvote 0

shilohsfoal

Jacks or better to open
Jan 3, 2011
2,891
492
✟80,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single

So if this verse has anything to do with the new Covenant gosple age why doesn't it say so?
In context it is speaking of the beast, it's image and its mark. Are you saying the new Covenant gosple age is the beast, it's image and its mark?

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, "Blessed are the dead--those who die in the Lord from this moment on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them."
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,074
3,469
USA
Visit site
✟223,637.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nope. Do you reject it?

Jesus died physically and was resurrected physically. He is the firsfruits of them that died (same as "them that slept").

Please read my post #159 properly.

So those who have their "part" in Him (through salvation) escape the second death (eternal punishment). This locates Revelation 20 in the intra-Advent period.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,725
2,194
indiana
✟334,397.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Straw man argument.

Being born again is not the first resurrection.


Christ is the first resurrection.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;

1 corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.

Being Born again is in regards to Christians PARTAKING/SHARING in Christ's resurrection........

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Romans 6:3-7 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; for he that hath died is justified from sin

Ephesians 2:4-5 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved

.....Which results in:

1.) we are now a kingdom of priests to God

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

2.) the 2nd death cannot hurt us

John 11:25-26 Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 8:51 Truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone keeps My word, he will never see death.”
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
70
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

Well set your alarm, wake up and review all the threads about teh trib and you will behold I have posted hundreds of SCriptures!

And Amillenial covenant allegorical theology is the height of private interpretation. What I think you hate is that pre mi, pre trib dispensational eschatology relies on a literal , historical, grammatical understanding of SCripture and we take every word at its normal face value unless the text and context compel us other wise. The golden rule of Scripture has always been: "If the plain sense of Scripture makes perfect sense, seek no other sense."
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
70
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

Unfortunate;ly this gave rise to new and different heresies.

Also very speculative interpretations! Teh perfect example is Luke 21 and Matt. 24! Luke speaks of the Judgment of Jerusalem and Matthew the abomination of desolation, but your scripture with scriputre method concludes both are talking of the same thing based on both passages have people fleeing!

I have compared SCripture with Scripture so your bearing false witness of me is meritless!

If the reformers truly did compare SCripture with Scripture they would not have cast off Israel as having a place in Gods plan! Thjey would not call the church "new Israel" or Spiritual Israel" or any other new moniker they have dubbed!

Even on these thread your supposed superior interpretive method ( We are not to interpret) Says that all the promised of God to Abraham were fulfilled in Jesus! Even a cursory reading of teh promised of God to Abraham I posted would show that to be an impossibility!
 
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0

rwb

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2020
1,776
368
73
Branson
✟47,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Why don't you tell me what time period you believe Rev 14:13 applies to. Because as I've shown that I believe the chapter is reference to the whole New Covenant Gospel Age. And the beast is synonymous with destruction. The beast, which is the power and spirit of Satan has been around since the beginning of human history.

Revelation 13:4 (KJV) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Here is a depiction of the beast, but likened to the serpent in the garden. There has been enmity between the seed of the serpent (Satan), likened to the devil, dragon, beast, and serpent, all equate to the seed of Satan, and the seed of Christ from the fall.

Ge 3:14
¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So if you are under the assumption that the mark of the beast is not yet come, then please tell me what period of time you believe this chapter of Revelation relates to.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
3,010
930
Africa
✟223,456.00
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So those who have their "part" in Him (through salvation) escape the second death (eternal punishment). This locates Revelation 20 in the intra-Advent period.
No it doesn't because that will mean you and I have been beheaded.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,074
3,469
USA
Visit site
✟223,637.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Your hyper-literalism is part of your confusion in regards to Rev, but that is only the start. You have nothing in scripture to show a rapture of the church, followed by a seven-year tribulation, followed by third coming. That is a man-made Jesuit invention.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
3,010
930
Africa
✟223,456.00
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Being born again is not the first resurrection.
Christ is the first resurrection.


John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;
You were doing well until you contradicted yourself.
Being Born again is in regards to Christians PARTAKING/SHARING in Christ's resurrection........
So according to what you said above, Jesus said,

John 3
6 That which is born (gennao) of the flesh is flesh, and that which is spiritually resurrected (apostasia) from death is spirit.
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be resurrected from death;

But that's not what Jesus said (it's what you say). This is what Jesus said:

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born (gennao) from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
6 That which is born (gennao) of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born (gennao) of the Spirit is spirit.
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born (gennao) from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born (gennao) of the Spirit.'

Gen 2
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 1 Cor 15:45

You cannot be found in Christ and be resurrected with Christ until the Spirit of God has first breathed your spirit into you (like he did with Adam before Adam fell and died).

Resurrection relates to rising again from death as being born (gennao) of the Spirit from above relates God breathing the Spirit of Christ into you, so that through the Spirit of Christ in your newly-born spirit placing you in Christ and Christ in you, you die with Him and are raised with Him.

The Spirit of Christ in your spirit. Your spirit in your soul = you have become a living soul. This is why you will never die and that's also the guarantee of your future physical resurrection.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

shilohsfoal

Jacks or better to open
Jan 3, 2011
2,891
492
✟80,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single

First we must understand the beast did not exist when John wrote revelation. It had existed beforehand but did not exist at that moment in time. John wrote that it would exist once more.

Revelation 17:8 NIV: The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.


Now if you understand what the beast is you would exactly how long before it reappeared. Those who's names are not written in the lambs book of life do not realize what it is when it reappears.

With that said and watching the beasts everymove we can see that the mark of the beast will be implemented in the next couple of years.
About the same time Trump gives Israel a host or soon after.
 
Upvote 0

rwb

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2020
1,776
368
73
Branson
✟47,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

The beast, having the same power and authority of Satan has always been around. He goes by a variety of names, as I have shown you. Would you agree that one who is a child of Satan already has his mark upon them?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 John 3:8 (KJV) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

What is the mark that was placed on Cain when he was driven from the garden after killing his brother Abel? Was God providentially preserving Cain's life for the purpose of reproduction? Is the mark a sign showing he belonged to the seed of evil? Is this the same mark that would be upon all Satan's seed?

Genesis 4:15 (KJV) And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

1 John 3:12 (KJV) Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Genesis 1:25 (KJV) And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The mark of the beast, i.e. the seed of the serpent/devil/Satan/beast, shows ownership, and has been upon his seed from the beginning of creation.

You can't see this because you are consumed with physical fulfillment, a physical mark, and waiting for him (A man?) to make an appearance on this earth? So you are in the dark and don't realize the mark is not physical, and the beast is fallen man working in the power of Satan.
 
Upvote 0

shilohsfoal

Jacks or better to open
Jan 3, 2011
2,891
492
✟80,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single

Most people were astonished when they saw the beast reappear. But you didn't see it and you don't know what it is.

Revelation 17:8 NIV: The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
 
Reactions: DavidPT
Upvote 0

shilohsfoal

Jacks or better to open
Jan 3, 2011
2,891
492
✟80,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Revelation 17:8 NIV: The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

It really is something that it was and was not for do long but now is. I mean, there are those who say they would have expected it but after such a long time for to just suddenly appear out of no where like that is shocking.
 
Upvote 0

shilohsfoal

Jacks or better to open
Jan 3, 2011
2,891
492
✟80,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single

Revelation 17:11 KJV: And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


And the word was right, right down to the details. You can count the kings and the prophecy is perfect.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So if you are under the assumption that the mark of the beast is not yet come, then please tell me what period of time you believe this chapter of Revelation relates to.


I am sure you have read the entire Revelation 13 chapter, likely numerous times by now. That means you should have noticed that first a beast has to rise out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And that one of it's heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Followed by another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Has any of the above already happened? If it has, when exactly did it happen?

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

None of what I have submitted from Revelation 14 can precede what is recorded in Revelation 13. Chronologically, Revelation 14:9 fits during the 42 month reign of the beast. That is when the martyrs we see in Revelation 20:4, for refusing to worship the beast, and it's image, are martyred. They are meaning the ones in Revelation 14:13. They are the ones heeding the warnings in verses 9-11 in Revelation 14. And as to these martyrs in Revelation 20:4, the fact they are martyred for refusing to worship it's image, there is no image to worship or refuse to worship until Revelation 13:14 is fulfilled first. In order to even fulfill that verse, Revelation 13:1 and verse 3, plus Revelation 13:11, have to be fulfilled before Revelation 13:14 can even be.

Chronology matters, chronology counts. Chronology helps us to arrive at the proper timing of these events. By ignoring chronology we end up with all these false theories, such as the thousand years fit before the 2nd coming. When comparing that to the chronology of events, clearly the thousand years fit after the 2nd coming instead. It's like those who think the trumpets and vials of wrath run in parallel. This is not possible though, when considering chronology. Only when ignoring chronology is it then possible. The first vial is poured out on those who have been worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign. The first trumpet sounds before there even is a 42 month reign of the beast taking place. Therefore, the trumpets and vials can't be running in parallel unless when the first trumpet sounds, they are already worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign, except apparently they are not.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0