Resurrection Evidence

the iconoclast · Jan 28, 2020

cvanwey said:
If you speak with someone whom believes they have already received contact from the God, for which they believe, then debating veracity within their claimed and asserted holy textbook almost becomes a futile endeavor, from my experience. Hence, the thread I created a while back, posted in the prior reply "Knowledge of Existence".

Hey hey

If you speak with someone who makes statements but wont defend them or back them up with examples, then debating becomes a futile endeavor.

Congrats on posting a thread "knowledge of existance". I wont be checking it out. If you feel that i need to know something then say it.

cvanwey said:
For the reason(s) already explained prior.

Please excuse me. I cannot seem to discover such reasons. What were they?

cvanwey said:
I already explained why prior exchange would likely render a futile endeavor. Again, you have 100% trust in the Bible. See below...

How much doubt do you have in the Bible and why is it important to you that the Bible is doubtful?

cvanwey said:
Sure, but relevancy lends to productivity. See below.

Productivity the state or quality of being productive. Productive is producing or able to produce large amounts of goods, crops, or other commodities.

cvanwey said:
Anecdotal testimonials are a dime a dozen:

https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-connect-with-Lord-Vishnu

"Oh the Lord is very easy to contact. Look inside your soul, it is a reflection of the supreme Lord Vishnu. Now here is the catch: this point will make sense to you only if your karma is pure and your mind open enough to understand it.

Wow finally we can move forward.

1. Oh the Lord is very easy to contact. Look inside your soul, it is a reflection of the supreme Lord Vishnu.

How is this statement able to be likened to Christian doctrine?

How is this similar to ky testimony?

2. Now here is the catch: this point will make sense to you only if your karma is pure and your mind open enough to understand it.

How is this statement able to be likened to Christian doctrine?

How is this the same as my testimony?

cvanwey said:
Because

The only way the Lord hears, communicates and becomes visible to you, is after you have purified your karma."

How is this comparable to Christian faith?

cvanwey said:
I don't doubt your belief in authenticity. Just like I do not doubt the belief and authenticity of others,

Why dont you doubt the authenticity of my belief and others?

cvanwey said:
whom swear to have been contacted from ghosts, spirits, dead relatives, other - from my place of work, from family, from friends, or here. But they are all unfalsifiable.

Why can they be unfalsifiable?

cvanwey said:
Hence, if you are working from the a priori that you know the Bible is true, mainly because you have witnessed, first hand, His presence, then we are at odds.

Is it possible to witness His presence at all?

cvanwey said:
I prayed to the same God for decades, and feel I have not received the same 'response.' Had I received what you claim, maybe I would be 'arguing' for your position.

Do you want it?

cvanwey said:
Therefore, since I do no have 'first hand contact', I'm then left with other 'criteria' of examination.

Well lets reason together and see where it goes.

Cheers

the iconoclast · Jan 28, 2020

Hey hey @muichimotsu.

Congrats on such an effort. Give me a couple of days to a week for a reply.

Things a starting to get interesting.

Ps - i will not stop you from assuming anything you like about my person, knowledge or english speaking ability. Also ill be checking your future posts for grammatical, spelling and syntax errors. Be on your best behaviour

Get ready for some fun.

cvanwey · Jan 29, 2020

the iconoclast said:
Hey hey

If you speak with someone who makes statements but wont defend them or back them up with examples, then debating becomes a futile endeavor.

Congrats on posting a thread "knowledge of existance". I wont be checking it out. If you feel that i need to know something then say it.

When someone gives me an earnest heartfelt story of how their 'god' has contacted them, to then go over facets of their claimed holy book's 'veracity', seems to be going backwards Again, I had no such experience. Hence, I am left to evaluate the claims from what others state, and what was written. You already 'know' your claimed and asserted God is real. Hence, my next question... (i.e.) How would (I), 'cvanwey', determine that your testimony is the 'real deal', while the person at my work or other, whom claims contact from some opposing claimed 'god', is not actually real? See below...

the iconoclast said:
How much doubt do you have in the Bible and why is it important to you that the Bible is doubtful?

I have much doubt. However, I invested 3 decades into it's claims. I now come here to challenge my own points of doubt.

the iconoclast said:
Productivity the state or quality of being productive. Productive is producing or able to produce large amounts of goods, crops, or other commodities.

Thank you

the iconoclast said:
Wow finally we can move forward.

Awesome

the iconoclast said:
1. Oh the Lord is very easy to contact. Look inside your soul, it is a reflection of the supreme Lord Vishnu.

How is this statement able to be likened to Christian doctrine?

How is this similar to ky testimony?

2. Now here is the catch: this point will make sense to you only if your karma is pure and your mind open enough to understand it.

How is this statement able to be likened to Christian doctrine?

- You will find all individual testimony is unique. Your story is unique to your own, as I have never heard of such a specific set of details before, or likely will not after - (Christian or other).

- Christianity wants recipients to walk by faith. Christianity seems to suggests that you must first open your heart, prior to receiving. Just like the above opposing assertion, 'that you must first purify your 'karma' and open your mind.' (paraphrased)...

- You/yourself, in your anecdotal story, stated you prayed with believers. You were ready to 'receive' apparently

the iconoclast said:
Why dont you doubt the authenticity of my belief and others?

Because I do not think you are a liar. Nor, are the people whom give me their opposing assertions of their god(s) contact.

the iconoclast said:
Why can they be unfalsifiable?

For many of the same reasons I cannot 'falsify' any asserted anecdotal claim/assertion of 'god's' contact from the many whom have divulges as such...

the iconoclast said:
Is it possible to witness His presence at all?

If He does exist, apparently. If He does not exist, that would be a silly question now wouldn't it?

the iconoclast said:
Do you want it?

Asked in earnest, for 3 decades, in line with Scripture, and never apparently received it. I Guess God did not want me to have it.

the iconoclast said:
Well lets reason together and see where it goes.

Great...

Again, I have not received contact. You 'have.' We are starting at the opposite ends of the pole now. You already believe, hence, will argue the Bible's 'veracity'. I currently do not. Hence, see all differing angles, as told from the Bible.

Please give me 'reason' to accept your position And in doing so, I would again like to ask you, in earnest...

I have had many differing presented anecdotal claims given to me, of your God, and also opposing god(s), and even other claims of the 'supernatural/other'.

Why is yours the real deal, while the ones whom claim an opposing god, not?

Qwertyui0p · Jun 12, 2020

cvanwey said:
Often times, debate will transpire between believers and non-believers. At the end of some of these discussions, the believer will stop the debate, and state 'all that matters is that Jesus died for us, etc..'

I now ask....

What exactly makes the evidence(s) for a claimed resurrection so dang compelling, as opposed to claims of other messiahs, god(s), other?

Because at the end of the day, Jesus either rose from the dead, or He didn't. Are we justified in believing He did?

Five reasons to believe Jesus rose from the dead - Adam4d.com

the iconoclast · Jun 13, 2020

Qwertyui0p said:
Five reasons to believe Jesus rose from the dead - Adam4d.com

Hey saint

Wow. I forgot about this discussion.

Hey @cvanwey would you like to continue

BigV · Jun 13, 2020

Qwertyui0p said:
Five reasons to believe Jesus rose from the dead - Adam4d.com

Seems to me, that if you are willing to posit a supernatural force, resurrection is not your only option.

Perhaps there was a supernatural hallucination?

At any rate, lets go through your five reasons:

1. The empty tomb.

Okay, according to the Gospel of Matthew, there were scores of empty tombs.

Matthew 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

This appears to be an embarrassing testimony and even Christian apologists (such as Mike Licona, William Lane Craig) think that this instance of mass resurrections is to be taken figuratively.

But, if their tombs were figuratively empty, why should the tomb of Jesus be literally empty?

2. Post Mortem Appearances.

Okay, but how did we rule out a supernatural hallucination? Perhaps mass hallucinations are not natural, but why can't a supernatural hallucination take place?

3. the conversion of Saul of Tarsus.

Well, Saul saw a vision. That's not a proof of a bodily resurrection of Jesus, but a proof that Saul is capable of seeing visions.

4. Boldness of the disciples - Okay, but it's hard to say why they were bold and what they were bold about. If you read the book of Acts, the disciples are basically Judiazers, blocking together with the Jews against Mosaic law breaking Saul of Tarsus, a.k.a Paul.

5. Explosion of Christianity - but every religion that becomes big explodes.

Look at Mormonism. Look at Islam.

cvanwey · Jun 13, 2020

Qwertyui0p said:
Five reasons to believe Jesus rose from the dead - Adam4d.com

I haven't addressed this thread in quite a while.... For starters, I'll allow @BigV to grab the bull by the horns here. No use in re-inventing the wheel I will address, where I feel necessary and accordingly...

the iconoclast · Jun 14, 2020

Hey @cvanwey. @BigV is very shy and won't treat me with a discussion.

Qwertyui0p · Jun 15, 2020

BigV said:
1. The empty tomb.

Okay, according to the Gospel of Matthew, there were scores of empty tombs.

Matthew 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

This appears to be an embarrassing testimony and even Christian apologists (such as Mike Licona, William Lane Craig) think that this instance of mass resurrections is to be taken figuratively.

But, if their tombs were figuratively empty, why should the tomb of Jesus be literally empty?

I'm not entirely convinced that verse is figurative.

BigV said:
2. Post Mortem Appearances.

Okay, but how did we rule out a supernatural hallucination? Perhaps mass hallucinations are not natural, but why can't a supernatural hallucination take place?

In any case, it is unexplainable under materialism.

BigV said:
4. Boldness of the disciples - Okay, but it's hard to say why they were bold and what they were bold about. If you read the book of Acts, the disciples are basically Judiazers, blocking together with the Jews against Mosaic law breaking Saul of Tarsus, a.k.a Paul.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'blockind together with the Jews against the Mosaic Law'

BigV said:
5. Explosion of Christianity - but every religion that becomes big explodes.

Look at Mormonism. Look at Islam.

Yes, but Christianity had (and has) a lot going against it - The Impossible Faith

BigV · Jun 15, 2020

Qwertyui0p said:
In any case, it is unexplainable under materialism.

Well, you are the one who is claiming that a resurrection, in fact, happened. How did you rule out all of the other supernatural options?

Qwertyui0p said:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'blockind together with the Jews against the Mosaic Law'

I mean, like the NATO bloc (probably misspelled). I meant that you can't tell the difference between Jewish Christians and Orthodox Jews when it came to the animosity towards Paul.

Acts 21: 20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come,

A very strange claim about the Jewish believers being zealous for the law and just as upset about Paul's teachings (or rumors about Paul) as the non-believing Jews were upset.

Later on in the same chapter, we read that Paul was almost killed by this mob, and one wonders if perhaps there were Christians there too, wanting to kill Paul because of his anti-Law stance?

Qwertyui0p said:
Yes, but Christianity had (and has) a lot going against it -

Check out Richard Carrier's response to this, titled NOT the impossible faith.

Introduction: Was Christianity Too Improbable to be False?

BigV · Jun 15, 2020

the iconoclast said:
Hey @cvanwey. @BigV is very shy and won't treat me with a discussion.

I apologize for a sporadic style of posting and replies. What do you think is the best argument for a resurrection of Jesus?

the iconoclast · Jun 15, 2020

BigV said:
I apologize for a sporadic style of posting and replies. What do you think is the best argument for a resurrection of Jesus?

Hey hey bigv

All good.

I do not know how to address this question.
What substance am i to argue for that would satisfy your criteria?

Cheers

cvanwey · Jun 15, 2020

the iconoclast said:
Hey hey bigv

All good.

I do not know how to address this question.
What substance am i to argue for that would satisfy your criteria?

Cheers

Let me elaborate, or intervene here... And @BigV , correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you are asking of this poster is....

If someone was to ask you to give [your very best piece of evidence], for starters, to demonstrate that Jesus did resurrect from the dead; what would this piece of evidence be?

Or, to put it into another way, what is/was the most compelling piece of evidence to convince [you] that He did rise from the grave, as the Bible asserts?

the iconoclast · Jun 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
Let me elaborate, or intervene here... And @BigV , correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you are asking of this poster is....

If someone was to ask you to give [your very best piece of evidence], for starters, to demonstrate that Jesus did resurrect from the dead; what would this piece of evidence be?

Or, to put it into another way, what is/was the most compelling piece of evidence to convince [you] that He did rise from the grave, as the Bible asserts?

Hey hey cvanwey.

Wow you finally appear to me - get it. Hehe, Unless you speak for @BigV, I'll wait for his reply about what his criteria is and not what you assume it to be.

How about you and I continue where we left off? There is a conversation between you and I which is unfinished.

What u think?

Cheers

cvanwey · Jun 15, 2020

the iconoclast said:
Hey hey cvanwey.

Wow you finally appear to me - get it. Hehe, Unless you speak for @BigV, I'll wait for his reply about what his criteria is and not what you assume it to be.

How about you and I continue where we left off? There is a conversation between you and I which is unfinished.

What u think?

Cheers

What do I think? Well, I submitted a post, waaay back in January. Post #403. I do not see a response? That's what I think

Furthermore, this is my thread. I'm trying to speed things along. You seem to have a hard time with direct questions...

the iconoclast · Jun 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
What do I think? Well, I submitted a post, waaay back in January. Post #403. I do not see a response? That's what I think

Furthermore, this is my thread. I'm trying to speed things along. You seem to have a hard time with direct questions...

Hey hey my dear

Please forgive me for having a hard time with direct questions. It must be evident that I'm not as smart as you.

What happens if I reply to your last post to me, will you ignore me or will you come out and play?

Cheers cherub

cvanwey · Jun 15, 2020

the iconoclast said:
Hey hey my dear

Please forgive me for having a hard time with direct questions. It must be evident that I'm not as smart as you.

What happens if I reply to your last post to me, will you ignore me or will you come out and play?

Cheers cherub

Oh, you mean like post 408, which side stepped post 403? Or 405, which is asking for permission?

There is really nothing for me to engage upon there.... Otherwise, what would likely happen, would be what happened prior. You would posit responses, and I would likely respond, where I felt needed/necessary, to such inquiry

I'll be off the grid for a few days. I will not be checking for new updates until this weekend.

Thanks

the iconoclast · Jun 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
Oh, you mean like post 408, which side stepped post 403? Or 405, which is asking for permission?

There is really nothing for me to engage upon there.... Otherwise, what would likely happen, would be what happened prior. You would posit responses, and I would likely respond, where I felt needed/necessary, to such inquiry

I'll be off the grid for a few days. I will not be checking for new updates until this weekend.

Thanks

Hey hey my dear

Post 408
"Hey @cvanwey. @BigV is very shy and won't treat me with a discussion."

That was no side step cherub. That was a statement to you suggesting @BigV would not converse with me - until he did.

While you are off the grid, I will be waiting patiently for your return.

Our discussion is not over yet and if you will not continue here. I will come looking for you

Tom 1 · Jun 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
I'd rather just stick to the OP.

Lol. As always Cvanwey, you shut down any possibility of discussion before it can even start.

BigV · Jun 16, 2020

the iconoclast said:
All good.

I do not know how to address this question.
What substance am i to argue for that would satisfy your criteria?

Basically, I need you to finish the following sentence:

My belief in the resurrection in Jesus is based primarily on _____________________________.

Resurrection Evidence

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