Response to TrustAndObey

NightEternal · May 27, 2007

The mods locked the thread before I could respond to your post.

NIGHT, YOU CRACK ME UP. YOU'RE THE ONE THAT LOVES TO GO ON AND ON ABOUT HOW THE MODS ARE VERY LIBERAL AROUND HERE

They are definitely more tolerant than most of the mods I have encountered in the past. And yes, that is a good thing.

AND YOU LOVE HOW PEOPLE GET TO SAY WHAT THEY WANT TO HERE.

I did and still do.

BUT WHEN YOU THINK SOMEONE IS ATTACKING YOU OR SOMEONE YOU CARE ABOUT

Um, no, I am not 'thinking' anything. It is actually happening. There are other threads, probably buried, that bear this out pretty clearly as well. If you cannot see how personal Neighbor has made things, there is not much I can say to convince you.

THE MODS NEED TO INTERVENE?

Actually, I don't care if the mods take action or not. I have presented my case and what they do is thier business. I am not going to wail, cry and carry on with demands for justice like some others have done. But I definitely do think action should be taken.

I have said in the past that I have not reported anyone to the mods, and up until now I have not. I am now making an exception for this one individual and I will be militant in reporting any and all questionable posts that come from him.

I have tried to be careful about attacking his beliefs and not him, whereas he has attacked me. He has declared me an enemy though his actions.

Well, alright then. Let's dance!

I still believe in free speech. Neighbor can spew all the trash talk against me he wants. That is his right. But I also believe in my right to defend myself against ludicrous posts and images which attack me or my Adventist integrity.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5387717

I will leave you to peruse this thread link and make your own judgment call as to his behavior.

MY CHOICE OF WORDING WOULD HAVE BEEN A LOT DIFFERENT THAN YOURNEIGHBOR'S, BUT THE MESSAGE IS STILL THE SAME.

The message is 'believe what I believe or get out'. Myself and others here have and will always fight these sorts of attempts at fear-mongering, control and manipulation of the faith journey of others.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN YOUR CHURCH'S DOCTRINE, WHY STAY?

TrustAndObey, could you please give the witchhunt mentality a rest already? It really is not very becoming of you. You are basing your claims on Neighbor's rhetoric and not fact.

For the fourth time, I believe in all 28 fundamentals with qualifications:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5219184

Yes, I reject the traditional interpretation of the IJ. So does a large segment of the church, including administrators, professors, scholars and ministers. So does the book Questions On Doctrine. So does George Knight, who had QOD republished and stands behind all of its contents. Are you willing to try and weed out all of these individuals, including a respected, retired Andrews church historian with impeccable credentials and a member in good standing? My beliefs on the IJ/Christ's Heavenly ministry agree with how Clifford Goldstein has presented them in the recent SS quarterly. Will you also weed out this man, a respected editor, author and member in good standing?

You will be hard pressed to find many Adventists these days who still believe that our salvation is in question until the outcome of some 'investigation'. But you are free to believe that if you want.

Yes, I believe EGW does not have doctrinal authourity. So does Graeme Bradford in his book More Than A Prophet. Will you also weed out this respected authour, administrator, teacher and member in good standing?

Do I pass the papal test of doctrinal purity, or am I fodder for the stake and fire?

I will say it again: I do not care if you, Woobadooba, Yourneighbor or anyone else thinks I am not a 'true' Adventist. I have been a member in good standing for over 20 years.

WHY TRY TO TAKE PEOPLE OUT WITH YOU INSTEAD OF LEAVING QUIETLY?

TrustAndObey, what in the world are you talking about here? Where have I ever attempted to do this?

I don't even know where to begin with this unfounded statement.

As for your question in the other locked thread, Tall and Sophia have not been speaking to me about Yourneighbor. I have no idea where you get that from. They have not even addressed the picture incident since it happened. My observations are my own and I believe them to be correct.

tall73 · May 27, 2007

TrustAndObey said:
That is not true. I told him if he was convicted two years ago not to be Adventist, then he cannot debate in the Adventist forum.

Show me that in the rules. He has not left the church. You are not a mod. Nor are you obviously the welcome committee for the remnant church. You told him if God told him to leave who are you to stop him?

Yet you don't believe it was God, do you?

Now see, here's the kicker...if *I* had said "Ice, I do not believe that was God talking to you" I would've gotten a million slams for even pretending to know whether or not Ice was really convicted by God.

Or you could have tried to address his actual points that were the reason for him leaving such as issues with the investigative judgment.

I can hear it now "Trust..if he had said God convicted him to STAY you'd agree that he really did hear from God directly, but since it was the other way around you're pretending you know what God told the man."

So you admit that IS what you think, you just don't want folks to comment on it.

So why do you think that? Because you think you are right? Then answer his questions.

You can say it and you won't get anyone jumping on you for it, but I won't say it. I really don't know if God convicted Ice or not. All I know is that Ice said He did.

Nope, he said he would eventually leave. He didn't say leave then.

Tall, since I've returned to this forum I've seen a lot of Ice's posts, and none of them were in the form of "please help me understand this...I think I could be wrong." In fact, what I've seen is quite the opposite.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=32598476&postcount=1

Check out this post from two months ago.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=31226459&postcount=1

He's defensive about anything that is said to him. I've really only talked to Ice on two occasions. Both times I asked him direct questions, which he ignored. That's not really talking.

Which questions.

I've talked to Woob too.

Then why say he left?

Practice what you preach.

Since this is in context speaking of posting in only the threads I want to I HAVE practiced what I preach. I am posting in threads to get answers. If your friends don't want to discuss theological issues they don't have to.

I have been consistent since I got here. One of my first posts was to encourage discussion and not run folks off. That was before I took the positions I do now. On staff I likewise objected to other people trying to determine who is orthodox enough to be a certain denomination if their church determines they are.

If Ice is determined to leave the church, how in the world can I convince him otherwise? His statements are very matter-of-fact.

\

By addressing the evidence he raised.

I mean seriously, do you honestly think anything I can say (or anyone else for that matter) is going to change Ice's mind?

That rather depends on if you really have the truth. If not, then no.

I didn't really ever even talk to Ice until he stated that we believe in legends and myths (the book of Genesis). Then I saw him say the Lord convicted him to leave the church.

Now perhaps someone can point me to that. Ice is VERY strong on a literal 7 day creation.

He worked for a time with a creationist ministry.

Is pointing that out a bad thing? Is using his own words to keep him from running MORE people out of this forum a bad thing?

If questions about the truth run people out then why were they here?
They have a choice what threads to look at. And you are trying to get him barred because of when you think he should leave.

I don't see frustration. I see a man that is determined to find error (which he has stated himself) so he can leave.

Read his posts from before again.

My question still stands....does he really want people to give him reasons to stay (which in essence means we're telling him to disobey God by his OWN statements)? Or does he just want to take people out of Adventism WITH him?

Well as someone who heard him in despair on the phone over realizing the problems with the doctrines he had always believed I can most certainly say yes he does want answers. But he more and more is finding that there are none that are satisfactory.

I'm not telling anyone to go anywhere. I simply stated that when someone says the Lord CONVICTED them that they won't be Adventist anymore, they cannot debate in the Adventist forum.

You told him he should do what the Lord told him to--even though you now admit you are not sure if it was the Lord.

Are you now the mod who makes determinations about who can post? Are you now the church in business session in Ice's church to tell him when he is not an adventist?

Do I have a problem with you struggling with theology? No, I sure don't. I do it all the time. However, I do not accept money from people that look up to me as their spiritual leader either.

So you are saying that whenever a pastor has questions they should just leave. You apparently are not aware of the many people in our church leadership who are already aware of these questions. I just received an email from a professor for some time who wants me to stay. He admits we DO NOT have all the answers.

You have been in the church only a short time and admit you haven't even read EGW. Who are you to tell me what to do with my questions?

There are ministers accepting tithe who have decided to stay despite their conclusions. I have NOT said I am going to do that. I have said I will leave if I can't resolve it. But I am reading everything I can find and discussing with everyone I can first. And if you don't like it that is your problem. This is not about you and it is not about this forum. It is about my whole spiritual life and future. It is about the churches that I pastor that would be crushed if I do have to leave. It is about people who I have pastored in some cases for their kids whole lives having to explain why the pastor no longer believes what he used to preach.

So you think I should just on a whim, without getting answer, leave and screw up my family, my ministry, my churches, my spiritual life all because you don't want to be bothered with questions in your internet forum?

Sorry, you are out of luck. Some have been discussing Some have been helpful. And I appreciate their efforts.

See, that's it right there. You said you CANNOT resolve these issues. Are you really looking for answers? Or are you determined they CANNOT be resolved no matter what?

Yes, that must be it. I want to be alienated from my extended family and my churches and be called a heretic and give up the church I loved and found Christ in, and give up my job, my support for my family just because I am determined to find fault.

This is the real world sister. This is me about to have my whole life ruined by things I can't reconcile.

You know I haven't read a single EGW book because I've been very OPEN about that. I knew eventually someone would try to throw that in my face as "well then you can't possibly know what you're talking about.

It would seem a factual conclusion. No one would throw it in your face if you were not making judgments on those who have read it and have questions.

I've seen a lot more than "testing" going on. I've seen people say that to believe she was prophetic is insane, small-minded, and ignorant. You know that Tall.

And I have seen people progressively question because no answers are forthcoming and they are just told they should shut up.

But which ones have said it is insane?

Adventist Dissident · May 27, 2007

Originally Posted by TrustAndObey

That is not true. I told him if he was convicted two years ago not to be Adventist, then he cannot debate in the Adventist forum.

"Trust&Obey" you need to do what your name says and Trust and OBEY. I belive the 9th commandment says "thou shalt not bare false wittness." and you are doing a lot of that.

I have said the Lord "convicted" that I would not be an SDA much longer. I did not say that the Lord told me Not to be an sda. Get it striaght

God reveled to me that it was going to happen, not when, not where and not how. It is become clear to me those things.
I am sorry you are not aware of the issues aor are to timid to face reality. If you have real answers than you are free to post. Nobody should have to be subject to your personal attack, character assinations and misrepresentations because you can't defend your faith or handel any disagreement.

TrustAndObey · May 27, 2007

Icedragon101 said:
I have said the Lord "convicted" that I would not be an SDA much longer. I did not say that the Lord told me Not to be an sda. Get it straight.

Oh, NOW you use the word “much” eh? Who doesn’t have it straight? Here’s what you actually said:

Icedragon101 said:
You misquoted me. I never said that the lord convicted me NOT to be and adventist, he did not tell me DON'T be and SDA. He convicted me that I was not going to be one any longer [emphasis mine]. There is a difference one is a command the other is a prediction a revelation of the future.

Does that say MUCH longer or does it say ANY longer?

Icedragon101 said:
the lord told me 2 years ago "I was not going to be an SDA any [emphasis mine] longer " At the time I dismissed the comment. I had no desire to leave. still don't. but I can't find a way to resolve the prophetic issues then I guess I have to leave.

Does that say MUCH longer or does it say ANY longer?

Okay, let’s break this down and approach it a little differently maybe?

If your boss called you into his office on Friday and told you that you weren’t going to have your job any longer, did he/she leave any doubt that you should return to work on the following Monday? Or, did your boss’ statement somehow imply that you might lose your job some time in the future?

You’ve said at least twice now that God convicted you 2 years ago that you weren’t going to be an Adventist any longer. Now what does that mean Ice?

You never said “He said I wasn’t going to be one MUCH longer” like you’re stating now. I have not misrepresented what you said, I simply quoted your own words.

I thought it was confusion with the English language maybe, but you obviously do know the difference between much and any.

Icedragon101 said:
I am sorry that You just cant handel it.

Icedragon101 said:
I would perfer to stay SDA , but cannot because the doctrine is wrong and EGW as a prophet is a lie.

The entire Adventist doctrine is wrong? No ifs, ands, or buts....just wrong?

Is this a solid conclusion you’ve come to or are you seeking answers in this forum?

I’ve asked you questions in the few times that we’ve talked, and you never answered me. What you have done is insult me several times when all I’ve done is point out your own statement that God convicted you 2 years ago that you weren’t going to be an Adventist any longer.

Icedragon101 said:
God reveled to me that it was going to happen, not when, not where and not how. It is become clear to me those things.

Icedragon101 said:
I am sorry you are not aware of the issues aor are to timid to face reality. If you have real answers than you are free to post. Nobody should have to be subject to your personal attack, character assinations and misrepresentations because you can't defend your faith or handel any disagreement.

You really should know by now that I’m not timid.

What reality am I not facing? Is there anything I could say that would change your mind about leaving the Adventist church eventually? Please answer that one question if nothing else.

I’m sorry if you feel like what I’m saying is a personal attack or a character assassination. I really am truly sorry if you feel that I am attacking you, because I’m not.

Have you made up your mind to leave the Adventist church for sure? You stated in the other thread that you might possibly become Messianic Jew, but you don’t know much about their doctrine. I have several Messianic friends that would discuss it with you if you’ve for sure made up your mind and if you’d like to speak with any of them.

Oddly enough, the Messianic friends I’ve made believe that EGW was a prophet, but I’m sure there are just as many that don’t.

God’s many blessings to you Icedragon, and I wish you well.

woobadooba · May 27, 2007

In defense of T&O, I don't see that she is encouraging Ice to leave the SDA church because he has questions about what we believe; rather, I see her addressing the overall attitude that he has manifested in here towards what we believe.

Thus this is the result of the many hostile threads and posts that he has put up, which disclose animosity towards certain aspects of what TSDAs believe (which by the way represent what the SDA Church officially believes).

The point of contention here is that there is no sense in someone complaining about what the SDA church believes if it has already been determined that God doesn't want that person to be a part of the SDA church.

And I agree with T&O here. It just doesn't make any sense. The only conclusion is that: a. Ice isn't sure that God really disclosed this message to him. b. Ice wants to encourage others to leave the SDA church with him.

As for a. I rule that one out on the grounds that he has shown himself to be quite adamant towards what he rejects, even to the point of demonstrating that he is utterly convinced that he is right about such matters. So I have to conclude that 'b' is the logical explanation for such conduct; and the overall tone and content of his posts/threads, makes this quite clear.

TrustAndObey · May 27, 2007

Now I'm just waiting for my personal stalker to show up in this thread.

TrustAndObey · May 27, 2007

Woob!! Good to see you.

I appreciate what you've said. It's probably going to fall on deaf ears, but hey, people do listen to us...or so I hear.

Adventist Dissident · May 27, 2007

T&O get a life.

NightEternal · May 27, 2007

At TrustAndObey's request, I am asking the mods to lock this thread. It was not started as a place where we could target her, just a way for me to respond to her post. There was no malicious intent on my part or any desire to go after her.

woobadooba · May 27, 2007

TrustAndObey said:
Woob!! Good to see you.

Thanks. But I don't plan on staying. I only came in here to post because it appears that some are trying to make you look like the bad person here, when in fact this is not the case.

I totally know where you are coming from, and wanted to give you some support on this matter.

TrustAndObey · May 27, 2007

NightEternal said:
At TrustAndObey's request, I am asking the mods to lock this thread. It was not started as a place where we could target her, just a way for me to respond to her post. There was no malicious intent on my part or any desire to go after her.

Night, honestly I do know that YOU were not using this thread to target me out...but you saw what happened.

I appreciate you listening, brother, thank you.

And Ice, I do have a life. I don't compromise my beliefs for ANYONE.

My husband has this saying that I've grown to love:

If you throw a stick into a pack of dogs...the one that yelps is usually the one you hit.

I know you're not staying Woob.

Adventist Dissident · May 27, 2007

TrustAndObey said:
Oh, NOW you use the word much eh? Who doesnt have it straight? Heres what you actually said:

Does that say MUCH longer or does it say ANY longer?

Does that say MUCH longer or does it say ANY longer?

Okay, lets break this down and approach it a little differently maybe?

If your boss called you into his office on Friday and told you that you werent going to have your job any longer, did he/she leave any doubt that you should return to work on the following Monday? Or, did your boss statement somehow imply that you might lose your job some time in the future?

Youve said at least twice now that God convicted you 2 years ago that you werent going to be an Adventist any longer. Now what does that mean Ice?

You never said He said I wasnt going to be one MUCH longer like youre stating now. I have not misrepresented what you said, I simply quoted your own words.

I thought it was confusion with the English language maybe, but you obviously do know the difference between much and any.

The entire Adventist doctrine is wrong? No ifs, ands, or buts....just wrong?

Is this a solid conclusion youve come to or are you seeking answers in this forum?

Ive asked you questions in the few times that weve talked, and you never answered me. What you have done is insult me several times when all Ive done is point out your own statement that God convicted you 2 years ago that you werent going to be an Adventist any longer.

You really should know by now that Im not timid.

What reality am I not facing? Is there anything I could say that would change your mind about leaving the Adventist church eventually? Please answer that one question if nothing else.

Im sorry if you feel like what Im saying is a personal attack or a character assassination. I really am truly sorry if you feel that I am attacking you, because Im not.

Have you made up your mind to leave the Adventist church for sure? You stated in the other thread that you might possibly become Messianic Jew, but you dont know much about their doctrine. I have several Messianic friends that would discuss it with you if youve for sure made up your mind and if youd like to speak with any of them.

Oddly enough, the Messianic friends Ive made believe that EGW was a prophet, but Im sure there are just as many that dont.

Gods many blessings to you Icedragon, and I wish you well.

i've never said he sabbath is false or the state of the dead or the advent. just the way we present the prophetic secenero, because we are locked into EGW and have to come to her conclusion. In 1980 the church voted and declared her a "divine commentary" on scripture. That has yet to be repuitated. Because I still believe in the Sabbath, state of the Dead and the second Advent I still see my self as a SDA. Sorry you have a problem with that. The messianic Jews are the same way. so are the Chruch of God (Seventh-day),

TrustAndObey · May 27, 2007

icedragon101 said:
i've never said he sabbath is false or the state of the dead or the advent. just the way we present the prophetic secenero, because we are locked into EGW and have to come to her conclusion. In 1980 the church voted and declared her a "divine commentary" on scripture. That has yet to be repuitated. Because I still believe in the Sabbath, state of the Dead and the second Advent I still see my self as a SDA. Sorry you have a problem with that. The messianic Jews are the same way. so are the Chruch of God (Seventh-day),

Well, your blanket statement of "Adventist doctrine is wrong" is what threw me there.

I do NOT have a problem with you seeing yourself as SDA. You said the Lord convicted you that you wouldn't be an Adventist any longer. I didn't say it, you did.

Adventist Dissident · May 27, 2007

TrustAndObey said:
Well, your blanket statement of "Adventist doctrine is wrong" is what threw me there.

I do NOT have a problem with you seeing yourself as SDA. You said the Lord convicted you that you wouldn't be an Adventist any longer. I didn't say it, you did.

again you are miscontsturing the meaning. we have been down this road I have already explained this and you seem to only be trying to "save face". this is a dead horse. find a now horse to ride. giddy up he ha

TrustAndObey · May 27, 2007

icedragon101 said:
again you are miscontsturing the meaning. we have been down this road I have already explained this and you seem to only be trying to "save face". this is a dead horse. find a now horse to ride. giddy up he ha

If you're going to try to be funny with insults, at least use proper grammar.

icedragon101 said:
I would perfer to stay SDA , but cannot because the doctrine is wrong and EGW as a prophet is a lie.

If you don't want people getting confused, perhaps you could clarify your statements a little better in the future? That statement was very general.

Adventist Dissident · May 27, 2007

TrustAndObey said:
If you don't want people getting confused, perhaps you could clarify your statements a little better in the future? That statement was very general.

I have already clairfed that. I was refereing the prophetic interpation. That is worng and has flaws.

Adventist Dissident · May 27, 2007

T&O you are a "newbie" It all makes sense now. you have converted and you are still in the "honeymoon" phase. oh ok. I see the first generation os always the most zelous. You aren't familure enough with the history and retoric to be secuer enough to question and examine. gotcha Ya. you have not been able to differentate between christ and the chruch. it all makes sense. When the "rose colored"glasses come off you will be able to see for the light it is.

TrustAndObey · May 27, 2007

icedragon101 said:
T&O you are a "newbie" It all makes sense now. you have converted and you are still in the "honeymoon" phase. oh ok. I see the first generation os always the most zelous. You aren't familure enough with the history and retoric to be secuer enough to question and examine. gotcha Ya. you have not been able to differentate between christ and the chruch. it all makes sense. When the "rose colored"glasses come off you will be able to see for the light it is.

You know what the really crazy part is? I studied myself INTO Adventism as an adult, and it didn't take years to do it either.

I see people saying "it took me 7 years to study my way out" and I think, wow, I must be a quick learner or something. It took me three months to read the bible cover-to-cover (I have children or it would've been faster probably). Then I read it again.

It was one of the most humbling and humiliating experiences I've ever gone through and it was VERY hard for me to admit that I was wrong about SO MANY things.

I not only believed that we go directly to heaven when we die, I TAUGHT that to other people. I won't lie, I even prayed TO my dead grandparents because I was told my entire life that it was an okay thing to do.

And the Sabbath....I was told my entire life that Sunday WAS the Sabbath and that I was totally obeying God to just go to church on Sunday morning and then do whatever else I wanted to the rest of the week.

I made a grown-up decision to join the Adventist church. I checked into every Sabbath-keeping church there was, which narrows it down a lot....and when you throw the state of the dead into the mix, you are left with even fewer choices.

I didn't want to become Adventist, and my entire family is furious that I did, Ice. Not one week goes by when I'm not ridiculed for it in one way or another.

Nobody twisted my arm to accept the Adventist doctrine. I accepted it as an adult, with eyes wide open.

The things you say, I see them through the eyes of any denomination and how someone of any denomination would take them on their denomination-specific forum.

I guess I don't understand why someone would be intent on proving that they're right so much if their end conclusion is that they're going to leave eventually.

I cannot tell you if that was God's voice you heard. If it was, I am grappling with the fact that He wouldn't try to save ME from believing false doctrine too. Why let me go into it as an adult and let me feel so strongly about the things I do?

I don't think it's fair to say that once I'm not a "newbie" anymore that I won't like the Adventist beliefs. God convicted me to pick up the Bible for myself and it's odd that I came to several new conclusions on my own without belonging to ANY church at the time, if He knew I was going to misinterpret what I was reading.

I mean seriously, why would He do that to me? Especially when I prayed every time I picked up scripture and BEGGED Him to send me the Holy Spirit for guidance as I was reading.

Scripture contradicts just about everything I was taught as a child. God definitely didn't take it easy on me in that regard. I cried, I yelled, I was absolutely ANGRY at my spiritual leaders that led me astray as a child....why give me just a small piece of new light?

I'm not saying I won't ever leave the Adventist church. I did it for 15 months. I left God COMPLETELY for 15 months, but He never once took away that still small voice from me.

Why save me from myself just to lead me BACK into false doctrine?

If you think I don't struggle, you are way off. I struggle with watching injustice and what appears to be the devil being rewarded ALL THE TIME.

However, I will say this, I have never once tried to lead someone out of a church or away from believing in our Creator. Not once. And it won't ever happen.

If I left a church, which I have, I will go quietly and it will be between me and God.

TrustAndObey · May 27, 2007

When I reunited with my husband after 19 years (we were childhood sweethearts), he was Wiccan.

He made Wicca seem really appealing, and it was really refreshing not to see people that blamed "the devil" for everything.

If there was any "push" in a direction of faith, it was toward that....yet God spoke to me through all of it.

I praise Him for saving me from that all the time. So does my husband.

Your Neighbor · May 27, 2007

NightEternal said:
...I believe in all 28 fundamentals with qualifications...Yes, I reject the traditional interpretation of the IJ. So does a large segment of the church, including administrators, professors, scholars and ministers. So does the book Questions On Doctrine. So does George Knight, who had QOD republished and stands behind all of its contents. Are you willing to try and weed out all of these

We are not forcing the rejectors of church truth away. Seventh-day Adventists ask that these voluntarily leave our church. We would be better off to have every rejector of the IJ out of the camp.

EW.258.003
A Firm Platform
I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages. Said my accompanying angel, "Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance. The destiny of souls hangs upon the manner in which they are received." I was again brought down through these messages, and saw how dearly the people of God had purchased their experience. It had been obtained through much suffering and severe conflict. God had led them along step by step, until He had placed them upon a solid, immovable platform. I saw individuals approach the platform and examine the foundation. Some with rejoicing immediately stepped upon it. Others commenced to find fault with the foundation. They wished improvements made, and then the platform would be more perfect, and the people much happier. Some stepped off the platform to examine it and declared it to be laid wrong....

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