Responding to WHY were they not healed

Do we not prosper as our soul prospers, the safety valve for the name it and claim it. Your soul being the seat of your mind realm. So as you receive this renewed mind then you are truly able to receive prosperity . My mind is being renewed in the goodness of God every day.

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now faith said:

Our faith should be that we avoid battle altogether....note the should but could may be a truer meaning.

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Then why put on the armour of God and pick up the shield of faith?

Optimus Fortis said:

Then why put on the armour of God and pick up the shield of faith?

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It is interesting to note that the armor of God is for defense not attack. The shield is a large shield and the sword of the spirit is described as a dirk which is a sword for defense (short sword). I believe we are not called to be soldiers in Gods army but citizens of His Kingdom. A citizen does not fight. When a citizen is attacked he calls on His King to send His army to fight for Him. The citizen just has to realize his right to do so and make the call....

Nig said:

It is interesting to note that the armor of God is for defense not attack. The shield is a large shield and the sword of the spirit is described as a dirk which is a sword for defense (short sword). I believe we are not called to be soldiers in Gods army but citizens of His Kingdom. A citizen does not fight. When a citizen is attacked he calls on His King to send His army to fight for Him. The citizen just has to realize his right to do so and make the call....

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That is the precise problem with the Church today. It is waiting for God to overcome an enemy that He has already overcome while He waits for us to walk in the victory He has already provided.

Optimus Fortis said:

Then why put on the armour of God and pick up the shield of faith?

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We do pick up the armor yet my point is that Satan has already been defeated.

Christ has put all things under his feet and we are joint heirs in his body.

So the truth is we have no lack of anything but our flesh is subject to fear spoken into our lives by a defeated foe.

We already have been furnished a full suite of armor and have it on,we just need to realize it.

TasManOfGod said:

That is the precise problem with the Church today. It is waiting for God to overcome an enemy that He has already overcome while He waits for us to walk in the victory He has already provided.

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Lol I should have read your post before posting mine,but it is always good to hammer it in

Jedi.Kep said:

Nope. That's a misunderstanding of the belief. Kenneth E. Hagin dealt with that time after time after time.



You've almost got it!

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I don't quite follow. Am I to understand that my opinion on "name it and claim it" is false teaching, or that kind of churches are in err? What do you mean by "you almost got it"? I'm not looking for debate...just unsure as to the meaning of your words. Please explain. Thank you.

Nig said:

Do we not prosper as our soul prospers, the safety valve for the name it and claim it. Your soul being the seat of your mind realm. So as you receive this renewed mind then you are truly able to receive prosperity . My mind is being renewed in the goodness of God every day.

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I agree totally, but the prosperity for me may not come in the way of wealth. It may come in a different form for each person, I think. Do you understand why I say that? Whatever prosperity I receive will be in His eyes, the most efficient way to bless me for the benefit of the entire body of His betrothed. The best way to use me to Glorify Him.

Grafted In said:

I've belonged to churches that I'll refer to as the "name it and claim it" kind of belief, but if that was the case, wouldn't we all be driving new Cadillacs? When He wrote "...ask anything in My name" I tend to think He means if we seek His mind and His wisdom, we will ask for the things He wants us to ask for. That may be a screwball way of looking at it, but that's how I see it. If we truly seek Him He will put His desires in us and having been given that understanding we ask "in His name" and we will receive. JMHO.

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'name it/claim it' went off the rails when people started treating it like a winning lottery ticket to feed their lust for things. No, it is but a tool in the tool box of God's blessings for our lives. A tool to meet the needs of our ministries, to serve the Lord with excellence, and to simply walk in God's plan without the hindrance of lack. God's Word is the anchor to which all 'name it and claim' it teaching should be chained to. Kenneth E. Hagin dealt directly with the excesses time and time and time again, constantly pointing out the need to have the Word at the center of our lives in order to avoid the excesses, and constantly questioning the motives of the heart.

Your last sentence almost got the to the very heart of the issue.

Grafted In said:

I don't quite follow. Am I to understand that my opinion on "name it and claim it" is false teaching, or that kind of churches are in err? What do you mean by "you almost got it"? I'm not looking for debate...just unsure as to the meaning of your words. Please explain. Thank you.

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You are painting the 'name it and claim it' with a very broad brush...WE all have used that phrase one time or another, such as "Jesus" (Name it) "come into my heart" (claim it.)

Re-read Jedi-Kep's posts and you should get it...And once you get it, you may realize, that you may have used (that phrase) all along in your daily walk with Christ, more than you know...Jedi-Kep explained it the right way. And, as far as God's blessing on your life...you already have it...IF you/we put God's Word "first place" and apply it to our lives, then God will supply all of our needs as His Word says, and that doesn't necessarily mean that God won't supply our "wants" either, IF it's not done with "greed"...

Leave the the GREED out and God can/will supply both..! (If I NEED a Cadillac, could God supply it..? Of-course. If I WANT a Cadillac, could God supply it..? Of-course. All "wants" are not ruled out. It all goes back to greed...

Be careful what you ask for, (or want). Remember when Israel demanded (wanted) a king? God gave them their king, (King Saul), and they rejected God, "who WAS their king." ( 1 Samuel 8). That decision began Israel's destruction. That "want" was not God's will for them...Some of our wants, that we think we need, may, end up robbing us from the blessings He has already given us...

Looks like we got off the subject of healing just a fuzz from the OP's question...


Greater works...
_____________
Harry

Discernment at times,is a problem.

Not being able to identify the source of illness,may not be illness but a need to command a evil spirit to go.

Myself I deny the right of sickness in my body,Christ bared our curses all of them named on earth.

So yes on healing we do name and claim.

We deny the sickness the right to our bodies by the blood in Jesus.

Would that Paul had known that.

Grafted In said:

Would that Paul had known that.

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He would indeed,the birth death and resurrection of Christ is a finished work.

By Gods grace he paid the price for our sin,and endured the curse from the law

Galatians 3:13

When Paul was troubled with the thorn be it spiritual or physical he petitioned the Lord.

The Lord replied my grace is sufficient.

That answer was not a denial but a affirmation of Paul having the means already to end his thorn.

Grace is unmerited favor you cannot earn it it is a free gift.

A metaphor of my explanation would be:

If you had a problem getting a bully to leave you alone,you would ask a judge for a restraining order.

The judge would reply the one I already gave you is sufficient you just need to enforce it.

Paul was human like all of us,he was subject to the afflictions of this world as we are.

Paul had great faith and his afflictions were short lived as with some of us.

Others will lean on this one misunderstanding,of the Word as a excuse to deny Gods grace is always sufficient.

When there is failure its not God its our understanding God is no respecter of persons.

We stand on the promises of God the Word states all the promises of God are yes and Amen
(So be it)

wstu said:

First off I believe God has healed ALL our sicknesses but as you know WOF folks die of sicknesses all the time while they say they are believing on that truth. I am a firm believer we are to look at what the Word says and not at what we see, feel, etc. But I am stumped how to respond when someone comes to me and says, "why did my friend/spouse/etc die when they were a strong faith person. A person who stood on the fact that God HAD healed them 2000 years ago on the cross". I believe there are a number of reasons that they were not healed, but none of them are because God did not want them healed. Most if not all point to the a failure on the sick persons part. Lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6), doubt (James 1:6), weak faith (Matt 17:20), etc. WOF folks have gotten beat up for saying it was because of their lack of faith, and rightfully so. There are times to speak the truth and there are times we need to keep our mouth shut. So, how do we respond in a loving way when we are asked point blank? If you don't know the details of how the person was fighting, it is easy, you can just say you don't know, because you don't. But, when you do know some details such as the person was struggling with doubt what do you say then?

I tell folks that we are all at different levels of faith and we are not to look down at someone who may not be at your level. Unbounding faith is like running being able to run marathon. You cannot run a marathon right out of the gate. You need to first start with shorter distances and work your way up to a marathon. Many folks try to apply their faith on a major sickness when they have not even gotten victory for a cold. Probably not the best illustration since some can when it comes to faith. Thanks all for your input

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I heard a WOF teacher say we need to live by faith 24/7 for EVERYTHING, not just pull it out when we have an emergency. IMO, this explains most faith failures.

I talk with people who ask the "why?" question. I get as many details as I can from them. When I've heard enough, I ask them if they want to pray together. We ask the Lord "why?", and wait for His answer.

So far, everyone has received an answer that made sense to them. The Lord's answer is better than anything I could come up with on my own.

Truthfrees said:

I heard a WOF teacher say we need to live by faith 24/7 for EVERYTHING, not just pull it out when we have an emergency. IMO, this explains most faith failures.

I talk with people who ask the "why?" question. I get as many details as I can from them. When I've heard enough, I ask them if they want to pray together. We ask the Lord "why?", and wait for His answer.

So far, everyone has received an answer that made sense to them. The Lord's answer is better than anything I could come up with on my own.

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To clarify:

People feel better when I ask questions and allow them to talk it out.

It helps me understand the background issues, and helps them know I care about them. It also gives me a chance to pray while they talk, and get the Lord's instructions on how HE wants me to help this person.

When I get a green light from the Lord, I ask them if they would like to pray together to hear what the Lord says.

This helps people learn to pray AND wait to hear from the Lord.

I'm open to hearing what the Lord says, BUT I prefer the person with the question hears from the Lord for themselves. As we pray, I tell them what I'm hearing from the Lord AND ask them what they're hearing from the Lord.

The answer to their question is important, but them learning to hear the Lord for themselves is most important.

In the end, they hear something that makes them feel better. Even if they don't have all the details, they've started to learn how to get what they need from the Lord directly.

Truthfrees said:

To clarify:

People feel better when I ask questions and allow them to talk it out.

It helps me understand the background issues, and helps them know I care about them. It also gives me a chance to pray while they talk, and get the Lord's instructions on how HE wants me to help this person.

When I get a green light from the Lord, I ask them if they would like to pray together to hear what the Lord says.

This helps people learn to pray AND wait to hear from the Lord.

I'm open to hearing what the Lord says, BUT I prefer the person with the question hears from the Lord for themselves. As we pray, I tell them what I'm hearing from the Lord AND ask them what they're hearing from the Lord.

The answer to their question is important, but them learning to hear the Lord for themselves is most important.

In the end, they hear something that makes them feel better. Even if they don't have all the details, they've started to learn how to get what they need from the Lord directly.

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You know, I've got to say this is one of the best responses I've read. Although those who are grieving are asking the 'why' questions, they won't necessarily be ready to receive any answers even if they are based in fact and Scriptural truth.

Taking the issue, (which is the hurt from the loss, disappointment, etc) and turning it over to the LORD to speak to their hearts personally... Wow. Elegantly simple, and far better than trying to answer a person in the midst of grief. As long as the answer isn't "God took them", "It was just their time" or "God just needed another angel" lines of unbelief and crap... I am certain that God will help sort it out for them.

First off I believe God has healed ALL our sicknesses but as you know WOF folks die of sicknesses all the time while they say they are believing on that truth.

Yup - Hobart Freeman was "Taken out" by a easily treatable infection that Hobart "Knew in FAITH" was healed - until it killed him, of course.

DEATH, of course is the ultimate healing. Lots of TRUTH in that. And the "Religious stuff" that people "SAY" about what they're "believeing"/"have faith for" may not mean much of anything.

"But I am stumped how to respond when someone comes to me and says, "why did my friend/spouse/etc die when they were a strong faith person."

The QUESTION, of course is what does "being a Strong Faith Person" actually mean. Folks may have a STRONG FAITH in one area, and ZERO faith in another. FAITH, after all is revelatory, and if you DON'T KNOW what God's intention in a certain area is, then there's NOTHING to base a claim of "Faith" on. Paul ministered Resurrection to people, and yet left Trophimus behind in Miletum when he got sick. "FAITH" for one thing doesn't necessarily mean "FAITH" for something else. FAITH is revelatory, and Sourced by God - the "Hearing of Faith" (Gal 3:2-5).

"Most if not all point to the a failure on the sick persons part."

BINGO!!! That's the WoF "Back door clause". IF it didn't work - IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.

WoF folks have gotten beat up for saying it was because of their lack of faith, and rightfully so.

True statement, and the FACT IS that when the thing believed for DIDN'T HAPPEN, then there WAS NO FAITH - PERIOD (God won't tell you He's doing something, and then NOT DO IT).

What was TAUGHT as FAITH (By the WoF false teachers) was nothing more that PRESUMPTION, and false hope.

"you can just say you don't know, because you don't."

BINGO!!! if you don't know what to say - then it's not a SIN just to say that you don't know.

"But, when you do know some details such as the person was struggling with doubt what do you say then?"

Same answer. If you Don't know what to say (and the Holy Spirit isn't "filling in the Blanks") then HEAVEN'S SAKE don't try to "Make up" something religious that supports your "theology"!!!!

Bottom line - Hebrews 11:1 DEFINES Biblical faith, as being the SUBSTANCE (The established reality) of the thing hoped for, and the EVIDENCE (of the existence) of what's not there.

FAITH KNOWS. And if there's doubt, or confusion about the situation - IF you DIDN'T Hear from God about His intent - then there may be "Belief", and there may be "HOPE", and there may be well-meaning folks trying to Tell you religious things about what God WILL DO (maybe) - but the FACT IS that you DON'T KNOW what God will do, and so there's NO FAITH - period.

My Favorite illustration was the 24 year old fellow in my bible study back in the '70s who was a "Dead man walking" - Sent home from the hospital with a terminal cancer. Cold to the touch, weak as a kitten, and pale as a ghost - Chemo had failed, and so had radiation, and there was nothing left to do but keep him as comfortable as possible until he died in a few weeks max.

They were all United Church of Christ folks, so they were ultra-liberal theologically, and Nobody, other than myself, who'd ever even HEARD of "WoF teaching" (generally called "Name it, and Claim it" at the time).

And God TOLD his mother, who was also in my study, that He would recover fully, and NOT die. She DIDN'T ask us to pray for healing (no need, it had already been granted), but to join her in thanking God for His provision. And so we did.

Nobody else in the study had any real FAITH that He'd be O.K. (when you see a need, it's EASY to "Hear a voice"). but we joined her in the HOPE that She really had heard from God.

And then over the next few weeks he "just got better" his color came back, hair grew in again, his strength returned, and 8 months later the medical folks declared him "Cancer free" - and 30 years later (The last time I heard) he still was (and a member of the AoG in St. Mary's, Ohio).

Just like Peter and the cripple at the temple gate (but not as immediately). Pete didn't "PRAY" for the man's healing - He KNEW what was going to happen, and just SPOKE IT. That's Biblical "Word of Faith".

Faith KNOWS.