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Responding to Justa's Comments On Evolution

Oncedeceived

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Evidence is the deliberate design in the structures, systems, features and functions with a purpose in all living things.
The data is the details of how each structure, system, feature and function work and how they resemble human design.
Human design is recognized by experience of humans.
The methodology for gathering that data is using new technology that allows us to observe molecular machines in action. Other methods include using reverse engineering to understand how life forms are engineered to perform their functions.
As I just provided, science is taking designs we see in molecular machines and utilizing them in other designs. The mechanism behind design? I don't know what mean here. It can be tested by observing molecular machines and implementing them into our own designs based on their design.

Appearance is a small part of the overall design qualities that nanomachines in biological forms include.
 
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florida2

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Evidence is the deliberate design in the structures, systems, features and functions with a purpose in all living things.

Design which you still haven't shown.

The data is the details of how each structure, system, feature and function work and how they resemble human design.

You need more than 'It kinda looks like something' (I won't go into the whole cloud that looks like a duck isn't an intelligently designed cloud example again). Where's the quantifiable data? What measurements can be made to explicitly show design rather than 'looks like something'?


That's nice, but looks like something =/= is something. I still don't see how you would objectively demonstrate with data that there was deliberate design. It may not seem like it but I'm actually trying to help you see that at the moment your idea isn't scientifically sound and how to improve it (I'm happy to help those genuinely willing to learn), even though I don't accept your idea because I haven't seen any scientific evidence for it.


I don't see how using example from nature proves design - perhaps the opposite, that our human intelligent design isn't as good as evolution! By your logic, using genetic algorithms to help build things would be evidence for evolution!

By mechanism behind design I mean how this proposed deliberate design happened. How will you scientifically present this? What's the evidence for how it happened? Evolution has its mechanisms mapped out pretty well. What has your design idea got? How will you test this mechanism?
 
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Oncedeceived

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Design which you still haven't shown.
How do you define design? Perhaps that might help us better communicate our positions?



Well that is fortunate as ducky clouds are not in the same category as what we are discussing.


Well that is great, please provide how scientifically one would objectively demonstrate deliberate design? What evidence would show deliberate design in living organisms?



I don't see how using example from nature proves design - perhaps the opposite, that our human intelligent design isn't as good as evolution! By your logic, using genetic algorithms to help build things would be evidence for evolution!
Or it would show that our intelligence is not as good as God's. You make the unfounded assumption that evolution produces the molecular machines alone and that is not in evidence.


Evolution's mechanisms do not provide evidence that they produced the design we observe in living systems. What mechanism would produce such a system as the systems known to exist in the simple bacteria for instance?
 
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justlookinla

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Nope, I didn't. Where is the evidence in the link? Reference something. Your attitude is, here's the haystack, find the needle when the needle may not even exist.

Can YOU actually provide some semblance of evidence, some paragraph, some quote....something....anything? A link is simply more evasion from you.
 
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justlookinla

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In other words, the link you gave does NOT have evidence, only a series of guesses and suppositions, could be's, might have been's, our 'best guess. That's not evidence based on the scientific method, you know.

This is why you refused to quote from the link, choosing instead to respond with the find the needle in the haystack response when in fact you knew, but wouldn't admit, there's no needle to find.
 
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whois

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Once and whois and whoever else, if you think that your design idea is a worthy scientific replacement of evolution, how would it be presented scientifically?
my presence in this thread is in relation to the claim that boxcar2d mimics biological evolution.
boxcar2d does not simulate biological evolution in that it simulates none of the biomolecular processes involved.
no one has demonstrated it even APPLIES to evolution for the same reason.

as far as design goes, i can see how some people would conclude some of this stuff appears designed.
ATP synthase for example, here we have a bonefide molecular machine complete with a rotor, a stator, and a connecting shaft.
this machine use hydrogen ions falling down a potential gradient to produce energy for the cell.
this turns a rotor that transforms ADP into ATP.
it's unfathomable that this machine "gradually evolved" because all parts of it are useless without the whole molecule.
the number of genes required must also be quite large.

this is basically my entire stand when it comes to evolution.
quite simply, it is NOT what you think it is.
i have done exactly that.
i guess you missed the posts where i linked to papers that state MA experiments show a linearly decreasing fitness with accumulating mutations, or the paper that show gene trees and species trees rarely align, or the paper that outright states all of the tenets of the modern synthesis has been overturned or replaced.
maybe you missed the sources that say the modern synthesis is dead, or where chinese scientists are having difficulty getting published in western media.
 
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The Cadet

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DogmaHunter

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When people start to say that Professor Dawkins doesn't understand evolution, they are pretty much done.

It's like saying that Stephen Hawking doesn't understand physics.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Deliberate design observed in living things is the evidence. The fact that you don't observe it is not significant when there are a majority in mainstream science that do.

You haven't presented a single mainstream scientist that thinks "deliberate design" is observed.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Anyone else think that all this attacking the poster rather than the posts tactic is being used to close the thread so they don't have to back up their assertions?


If it gets closed, I'll personally open a new one, just for you.
 
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DogmaHunter

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To say someone is a liar without foundation is harsh.

Not a single time have I called you a liar or dishonest without going out of my to explain why.

Ironically, I'll again call you dishonest for pretending that that isn't true.
 
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DogmaHunter

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i for one doubt if dogmahunter is a programmer.

Watch me care.

i presented dogmahunter with a very simple program, and asked him a simple question about it that any programmer should have been able to answer.
so far he has provided no answer.

I've told that I'm not about to dive into your cryptic horrid code written in a language that debuted in 1963.

I've invited you to ask me real questions, if you have any, concerning my fields of expertise: .NET, XAML, C#, ASP .NET MVC, OO paradigms, design patterns,..

And I only answer real questions. I have nothing to "prove" to you.

I've also explained that, in any case, my credentials are irrelevant to my arguments.

I could be a garbage man and it wouldn't change anything.


Question all you like.
 
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DogmaHunter

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The quotes you gave did not support your argument in any sense.
 
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DogmaHunter

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in the PM he sent me, he list 5 or 6 languages that he programs in.
little does this man realize, but VBA and visual basic makes use of the very commands my program uses.


Lol

No, I'm very well aware that VB and VBA are born form old school BASIC.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I think that there is something you are missing here. First of all, Dogma is very caustic towards those who do not agree with him. He calls people out and out liars.

I don't call people liars or dishonest simply for not agreeing with me.
I always explain these accusations.
 
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DogmaHunter

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My credentials or lack thereof change nothing about the fact that GA's are algoritms inspired by natural evolution. It changes nothing about the fact that these algoritms are blind processes that produce optimised designs.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Right, there are two separate arguments in this, one is does he possess the knowledge that one would expect someone that claims to be a programmer should know and the other is that he lacks knowledge of evolution that makes his other claim false.

I find it hilarious how this thread evolved into something that apparantly says that my arguments are only valid if, and only if, I am actually a programmer.

This is hilarious.

It's like the "reversed argument from authority".

Just when I thought discussions here couldn't get any crazier.... something like this happens.

Amazing.
 
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DogmaHunter

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We have been over this before once.....

It's called intellectual honesty
 
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