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Resources for teaching about creationism

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Maharg

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vs big bang vs steady state theories.

I'm due to teach part of an A-level lesson on Creation, as part of a religious studies A-level and I am trying to find some internet resources which will lay out the main arguments.

Does anyone know of any good places to look?

Many thanks

Maharg


(I posted this in the open to all members section too. Hope you folks don't mind me cross-posting. I want to try and find the best resources I can - it's my very first time of teaching at this level)
 

gluadys

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Maharg said:
vs big bang vs steady state theories.

I'm due to teach part of an A-level lesson on Creation, as part of a religious studies A-level and I am trying to find some internet resources which will lay out the main arguments.

Does anyone know of any good places to look?

Many thanks


I am not sure why you would want to present big bang theory as contradictory to creation. The steady state theory was developed by a well-known and militant atheist, Fred Hoyle, because he rejected a theory which implied creation. Big Bang theory was developed by Jesuit priest named Georges Lemaitre, who certainly was not interested in opposing creation.

Perhaps you have some misunderstanding about big bang theory. For example, many people take from the nickname "big bang" (which was coined by the same militant opponent, Fred Hoyle) that it refers to an explosion. It doesn't. So make sure you understand the actual process referred to by the big bang.

You may have problems with the scientific time-frame. In that case, I recommend the work of Gerald Schroeder, especially Genesis and the Big Bang. Schroeder is a Jewish physicist and creationist. As a physicist he understands the big bang and is convinced of its reality. As a creationist he accepts a literal understanding of the Genesis account of creation. In his book he explains how to reconcile both. According to him the billions of years talked of in scientific accounts and the six days of Genesis are both literally true. I won't say any more than that, because you have to read the book for the explanation of how that can be.
 
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Maharg

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Dear Gluadys

Thank you for your reply. The simple reason for presenting the theories as contradictory is that the A-level syllabus presents it that way. :)

When I first posted I had very little understanding of the Big bang theory, but have now done quite a bit of research. I have found that many creationists welcome the Big Bang as confirming creation accounts.

I'm trying at the moment to gain a proper understanding of the Big Bang theory and how it could be consistent with creationism.

Many thanks for the guidance - I'll let you know how I get on.

God bless,

maharg
 
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Micaiah

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Here a quotation from the AIG site which highlights some of the differences between the Big Bang Theory and the historical narrative of Scripture.

65. Was there a Big Bang?

The Big Bang is usually defined as a random, chance event. As noted in the previous question, some instability supposedly developed in an original "kernel" of mass energy, and the universe ballooned outward. However, Scripture clearly rules out such an accidental origin. A modified version of the Big Bang theory says that when the explosive event happened, it was directed by God. This is the theistic-evolution approach, an attempt to compromise the Bible with evolutionary theories, and it, too, must be rejected because of its many conflicts with the order of events in Genesis. Table 6 contrasts some of the chronological discrepancies between the Bible's creation account and the Big Bang hypothesis.
Creationists maintain that what really happened at the time of creation is that God spoke and the earth appeared— he commanded and the heavens stood firm (Ps. 33:9)! All the many stars appeared suddenly and supernaturally in space. Scripture does not imply an explosion, although the universe must have experienced a sudden "explosive" input of ordered energy. Perhaps some of the astronomical data that seems supportive of the Big Bang theory, such as redshift and background radiation, needs to be looked at instead as evidence of a rapid creation. One secular variation of the Big Bang theory refers to an "inflationary" Big Bang, the suggestion being that the universe developed and matured very quickly in its first moments. In this particular theory, secular science seems to have taken one step in the creationists' direction. Further developments should be of interest in this area of theory and research.

Table 6: Chronological Discrepancies Between Scripture and Big Bang

Scripture Big Bang All elements made together Elements beyond hydrogen and helium formed after millions of years Earth formed before stars Earth formed long after stars Plants formed before the sun Plants evolved after the sun Sun formed on the fourth day Sun formed before the earthSun, moon, and stars formed Sun formed from older stars together
The Big Bang as it is understood today is an inadequate theory since there are many fundamental problems that are seldom mentioned in the pertinent literature. The following are some "missing links" in the theory:

1. Missing Origin. The Big Bang theory assumes an original concentration of energy. Where did this energy come from? Astronomers sometimes speak of origin from a "quantum mechanical fluctuation within a vacuum." However, an energy source is still needed. Actually, there is no secular origin theory, since every idea is based on preexisting matter or energy.

2. Missing Fuse. What ignited the Big Bang? The mass concentration proposed in this theory would remain forever as a universal black hole. Gravity would prevent it from expanding outward.

3. Missing Star Formation. No natural way has been found to explain the formation of planets, stars, and galaxies. An explosion should produce, at best, an outward spray of gas and radiation. This gas should continue expanding, not form intricate planets, stars, and entire galaxies.

4. Missing Antimatter. Some versions of the Big Bang theory require an equal production of matter and antimatter. However, only small traces of antimatter (positrons, antiprotons) are found in space.

5. Missing Time. Some experiments indicate that the universe may be young, on the order of 10,000 years old. If true, then there is not sufficient time for the consequences of the Big Bang to unfold. A short time span would not allow for the gradual evolution of the earth, heavens, and mankind.

6. Missing Mass. Many scientists assume that the universe will eventually stop expanding and begin to collapse inward. Then it will again explode, and repeat its oscillating type of perpetual motion. This idea is an effort to avoid an origin and destiny for the universe. For oscillation to occur, the universe must have a certain density or distribution of mass. So far, measurements of the mass density are a hundred times smaller than expected. The universe does not appear to be oscillating. The necessary mass is "missing."

7. Missing Life. In an evolving universe, life should have developed everywhere. Space should be filled with radio signals from intelligent life forms. Where is everybody?

The article was written by Dr Donald B. DeYoung and can be found here http://www.answersingenesis.org/Docs/399.asp#65. There is a book advertised on the link which will I suspect answer some of your questions on this matter.

I have also recently purchased a book sold by AIG called "Dismantling the Big Bang" by Alex Williams and Dr John Hartnett. This book will also be a useful reference on the topic and starts of with a heading:

"Four reasons to reject the big-bang theory. They are as follows:"

1. It doesn't work.
2. The theory flacks a credible and consistent mechanism.
3 Chemical evolution of life (eventually leading to intelligent life, an essential ingredient of and evolutionary cosmology) is clearly excluded by the evidence.
4. Science cannot produce any final answers on the subject of origins.

The next heading is as follows:

"Four reasons to accept six day creation."

And finally:

"Four reasons to avoid compromise"

From what I've read, even those who promote the Big Bang recognise it is based on a number of arbitrary assumptions.
 
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random_guy

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Whatever you do, please don't teach any logical fallacies or falsehoods. For example, as others here have stated, the BB was not an explosion of matter, it was an expansion of space. AIG point 3 is wrong with that regard.

7 doesn't seem to be on firm ground, either. Our radiotelescopes can only focus on a very small portion of the sky at any one time, and space is very large. Do you think that if aliens at our same level lived on alpha centari, they'd be able to hear us? We've been broadcasting for only ~60 years now, and our signal is extremely weak. Life isn't like Star Trek where we have instanst communication and instant travel.
 
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gluadys

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Micaiah said:
Here a quotation from the AIG site which highlights some of the differences between the Big Bang Theory and the historical narrative of Scripture.

Well first to some of the problems with AiGs description.

65. Was there a Big Bang?

The Big Bang is usually defined as a random, chance event.

Which is the normal scientific vocabulary for "we don't know of a natural cause for this." It does not mean there is no cause and it certainly does not exclude God as a cause.



As noted in the previous question, some instability supposedly developed in an original "kernel" of mass energy, and the universe ballooned outward. However, Scripture clearly rules out such an accidental origin.

How so? If it was God's action that initiated the instability, would it not look accidental to scientific investigators who cannot see what God is doing? Scripture only rules it out if the role of God is denied. The inability of science to perceive God is not equivalent to denying God.

A modified version of the Big Bang theory says that when the explosive event happened, it was directed by God.

So AiG is not aware that the big bang was not an explosion.

This is the theistic-evolution approach, an attempt to compromise the Bible with evolutionary theories, and it, too, must be rejected because of its many conflicts with the order of events in Genesis. Table 6 contrasts some of the chronological discrepancies between the Bible's creation account and the Big Bang hypothesis.

This is an ad hominem argument. It is saying big bang theory must be rejected because theistic evolutionists, who have what AiG considers an unbiblical view on evolution, often agree with big bang theory. What anyone believes about evolution has no relevance to what a Christian may believe about big bang theory. They are two separate theories which do not depend on each other.

Creationists maintain that what really happened at the time of creation is that God spoke and the earth appeared— he commanded and the heavens stood firm (Ps. 33:9)! All the many stars appeared suddenly and supernaturally in space.

And this is based on a human interpretation of the scriptures. An interpretation which is not in accord with the evidence.


Scripture does not imply an explosion,

And neither does big bang theory.

Perhaps some of the astronomical data that seems supportive of the Big Bang theory, such as redshift and background radiation, needs to be looked at instead as evidence of a rapid creation.

Now if they gave us some reasons why.....

One secular variation of the Big Bang theory refers to an "inflationary" Big Bang, the suggestion being that the universe developed and matured very quickly in its first moments.

This is not what the inflationary period is about, nor what it implies.

1. Missing Origin. ... However, an energy source is still needed. Actually, there is no secular origin theory, since every idea is based on preexisting matter or energy.

Why is an energy source needed? Why do matter and energy (same thing really) need to be created? Why does God not need to be created?

2. Missing Fuse. What ignited the Big Bang? The mass concentration proposed in this theory would remain forever as a universal black hole. Gravity would prevent it from expanding outward.

Again presuming that the big bang was an explosion.

3. Missing Star Formation. No natural way has been found to explain the formation of planets, stars, and galaxies. An explosion should produce, at best, an outward spray of gas and radiation. This gas should continue expanding, not form intricate planets, stars, and entire galaxies.

Again presuming the big bang was an explosion. And not taking the force of gravity into account.

4. Missing Antimatter. Some versions of the Big Bang theory require an equal production of matter and antimatter. However, only small traces of antimatter (positrons, antiprotons) are found in space.

Matter and antimatter annihilate each other on contact. No significant amount of antimatter can exist in a universe composed of matter for any length of time.

5. Missing Time. Some experiments indicate that the universe may be young, on the order of 10,000 years old.

Which experiments?

6. Missing Mass. Many scientists assume that the universe will eventually stop expanding and begin to collapse inward. Then it will again explode,

Still another reference to the non-existent explosion. Current information seems to rule out an oscillating universe.

7. Missing Life. In an evolving universe, life should have developed everywhere. Space should be filled with radio signals from intelligent life forms. Where is everybody?

Everywhere that conditions suitable to life exist, yes. How many planets have we found so far where such conditions exist? What percentage of planets would one expect to have such conditions? And even if life exists and evolves on other planets, why should we expect it to evolve into intelligent life? Evolution does not aim to produce intelligent life, and earth got along for a long time without an intelligent, self-aware species capable of sending out radio signals. If life exists on other planets, what percentage of them would have not only life, but intelligent life?


Just a few reasons why AiG is a poor source of information about the big bang. The only thing they got right was the discrepancy in the chronological order of origins.


I have also recently purchased a book sold by AIG called "Dismantling the Big Bang" by Alex Williams and Dr John Hartnett. This book will also be a useful reference on the topic and starts of with a heading:

"Four reasons to reject the big-bang theory. They are as follows:"

1. It doesn't work.
2. The theory flacks a credible and consistent mechanism.
3 Chemical evolution of life (eventually leading to intelligent life, an essential ingredient of and evolutionary cosmology) is clearly excluded by the evidence.
4. Science cannot produce any final answers on the subject of origins.

Naturally no comment can be made on the major theses without reading the book, but I thought I would point out these items:

#3 It is disingenuous to use the term "chemical evolution of life" rather than "abiogenesis". This is an attempt to smuggle abiogenesis into the theory of evolution, when they are two different processes.

Furthermore, no theory of abiogenesis is relevant to the big bang, so whether or not it is clearly excluded by the evidence says nothing about the evidence for the big bang, which is based on a completely different set of observations.

#4 And science does not claim to either.


From what I've read, even those who promote the Big Bang recognise it is based on a number of arbitrary assumptions.

Not unless the red shift of galaxies is an arbitrary assumption. I was under the impression that it was an observation.
 
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Maharg

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Many thanks for the continued tips. I will definitely not be teaching that the big bang was an explosion. :) I think I have just about understood it well enough to teach it now. I am planning to blow up a balloon as a visual aid, which is the best way I can think of to demostrate the expansion of space from a small beginning.

The AiG site has been useful because it does give me an idea of the arguments used by some groups, and the critique of the information in their site in the post above is exactly the kind of thing that my student (yes, I only have one student!) will need to be able to do, allbeit to a lesser degree of sophistication.

Thank you for some very helpful posts.
 
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gluadys

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Maharg said:
Many thanks for the continued tips. I will definitely not be teaching that the big bang was an explosion. :) I think I have just about understood it well enough to teach it now. I am planning to blow up a balloon as a visual aid, which is the best way I can think of to demostrate the expansion of space from a small beginning.


Here's a tip. Before you blow up the balloon, take a marker and mark two dots or small circles on it. They can represent galaxies. Then you can see how, as the balloon expands, the two points become more distant from each other.

This helps make the point that the galaxies are not moving away from each other through space (as suggested by an explosion) but are being carried away from each other by space as it expands.

Be sure your student understands that the analogy is to the skin of the balloon only, not to the whole balloon.
 
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philadiddle

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2. Missing Fuse. What ignited the Big Bang? The mass concentration proposed in this theory would remain forever as a universal black hole. Gravity would prevent it from expanding outward.
This answer to this is related to quantum physics. Gravity wouldn't have the effect it does if only quantum physics applies in the initial stages. I can't explain as well as some others on this forum can. Heres a thread from the "creation/evolution" forum that explains it quite well. It's a bit technical and u may not use it to teach with but it's good personal information.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2054754-quantum-mechanics-and-the-cosmological-argument.html

It is secular in nature but it is a reply to the above quote.
 
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Micaiah

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Maharg said:
Many thanks for the continued tips. I will definitely not be teaching that the big bang was an explosion. :) I think I have just about understood it well enough to teach it now. I am planning to blow up a balloon as a visual aid, which is the best way I can think of to demostrate the expansion of space from a small beginning.

The AiG site has been useful because it does give me an idea of the arguments used by some groups, and the critique of the information in their site in the post above is exactly the kind of thing that my student (yes, I only have one student!) will need to be able to do, allbeit to a lesser degree of sophistication.

Thank you for some very helpful posts.

Glad you found it helpful. I hope there was enough information posted for you to recognise that the BB hypothesis is not compatible with the inspired narrative of Creation in Genesis.
 
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Micaiah

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"People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations….For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations….You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that."4

W. Wayt Gibbs, "Profile: George F. R. Ellis," Scientific American, October 1995, Vol. 273, No.4, p. 55.
 
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Micaiah

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Perhaps you have some misunderstanding about big bang theory. For example, many people take from the nickname "big bang" (which was coined by the same militant opponent, Fred Hoyle) that it refers to an explosion. It doesn't. So make sure you understand the actual process referred to by the big bang.

Whatever you do, please don't teach any logical fallacies or falsehoods. For example, as others here have stated, the BB was not an explosion of matter, it was an expansion of space. AIG point 3 is wrong with that regard.

I will definitely not be teaching that the big bang was an explosion. :)

Perhaps it should now be called the Big Pffffffffffffthhhhhhh !!??

Questions:

1. What model of the BB are you talking about? Provide references.
2. What was the initial rate of expansion of the universe in this model?
 
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philadiddle

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"People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations….
ya, like the flying spagetti monster

For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations….
actually you can disprove it based on observation. use math to detect the curvature of the earth, it's position relative to the sun, moon, and stars and how that position changes relative to each, and the rate which stars move away/toward each other and you can easily disprove that.


You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that."4

well, i gues math and physics don't have that problem, which are the evidence for our current models.
 
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gluadys

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Micaiah said:
Perhaps it should now be called the Big Pffffffffffffthhhhhhh !!??

Questions:

1. What model of the BB are you talking about? Provide references.
2. What was the initial rate of expansion of the universe in this model?

Here is one fairly easy-to-read account.

http://members.tripod.com/~ssscott/BigBang.html
 
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Micaiah

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gluadys said:
Here is one fairly easy-to-read account.

http://members.tripod.com/~ssscott/BigBang.html
[size=+1]Approximately 13.7 billion years ago,[/size] the entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus. Known as a singularity, this is the moment before creation when space and time did not exist. According to the prevailing cosmological models that explain our universe, an ineffable explosion, trillions of degrees in temperature on any measurement scale, that was infinitely dense, created not only fundamental subatomic particles and thus matter and energy but space and time itself. Cosmology theorists combined with the observations of their astronomy colleagues have been able to reconstruct the primordial chronology of events known as the big bang.

Quantum theory suggests that moments after the explosion at 10 [size=-1]-43 [/size]second, the four forces of nature; strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic and gravity were combined as a single "super force"(Wald). Elementary particles known as quarks begin to bond in trios, forming photons, positrons and netrinos and were created along with their antiparticles. There are minuscule amounts of protons and neutrons at this stage; approximately 1 for every one billion photons, neutrinos or electrons (Maffei). The density of the Universe in its first moment of life is thought to have been 1094g/cm[size=-1]3 [/size]with the majority of this being radiation. For each billion pairs of these heavy particles (hadrons) that were created, one was spared annihilation due to particle-antiparticle collisions. The remaining particles constitute the majority of our universe today (Novikov).

Clearly this model assumes there was a massive explosion.

Cosmology theorists combined with the observations of their astronomy colleagues have been able to reconstruct the primordial chronology of events known as the big bang.

In other words some scientists made wild guesses as to how matter first evolved.
 
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