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Phil 2:8b - He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
True humility is a function of obedience.
Heb 3:18ff - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
True belief is a function of obedience.
Obedience is not a work.
Yup.It is a work in that we choose to do it or not, but it is not a work in the way some people like to accuse those of us that teach and preach that you must obey God to be saved that we are justifying ourselves with our works of righteousness. It is simply obeying God's will, without which we cannot be saved.
"He that doeth the will of God abideth forever"
Please provide Scriptural evidence that salvation is by obeying God's will. This is so broad and vague.It is a work in that we choose to do it or not, but it is not a work in the way some people like to accuse those of us that teach and preach that you must obey God to be saved that we are justifying ourselves with our works of righteousness. It is simply obeying God's will, without which we cannot be saved.
OK. Now, please cite this verse so we can examine the context for it."He that doeth the will of God abideth forever"
No - I don't think you get it. I'm not convinced you even understand your own theology.Please provide Scriptural evidence that salvation is by obeying God's will. This is so broad and vague.
Here's a real clear verse on salvation that you might not be aware of.
Eph 2-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
iow, no one works for salvation. It is by grace through faith, NOT through obedience.
Obedience is an issue ONLY FOR THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED. As children of God, they are commanded to be obedient.
OK. Now, please cite this verse so we can examine the context for it.
A text without a context is a pretext.
Since you mention "the will of God", let's examine a verse that specifically mentions "the will of God".
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
The issue for salvation always has been faith in Christ. To believe the Gospel is obeying the Gospel.
Do you include your own efforts in what you state about "obedience"?
Wow. Such "insight", huh. How do you know anything about me or my theology?No - I don't think you get it. I'm not convinced you even understand your own theology.
Unless a person isn't conversant in the English language, it means exactly what it says."No one works for salvation?" What does that mean?
You see? That's what I'm talking about when I question what you think you know anything about me. You falsely think I am "hung up" on works. How absurd. Works don't save anyone. So I'm not the one who is hung up on them. It's those who claim works are necessary for salvation that are hung up. Very hung up.What are these WORKS you're so hung up on?
And they haven't read what Paul told the jailer, who specifically asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. And Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Simply "doing" something isn't a work, by definition. The Bible defines work as being compensated by obligation. Rom 4:4,5. Man is saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8,9), not by works.I hear many say "there's nothing we can DO to be saved."
I've already dismissed such people as lacking wisdom. Let's move on.And yet those very same people will quote - just as you did - Eph 2:8f "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." and assert "See?" and then turn right around and assert "ALL WE NEED TO DO IS BELIEVE"
So, what is your point here?Wait a minute! Believing is DOING SOMETHING! So is "Trusting in Jesus." So is "Saying the Sinner's Prayer" (nowhere to be found in Scripture, btw). So is "Confessing Jesus." So is "Repenting." So is "looking to the Son."
I used the word "do" in the CONTEXT of work. Did you miss it?But you assert there's NOTHING we can do to be saved because we've been saved by grace through... "faith?"
Are you aware that this verse was directed at ALL the first generation of the Exodus generation, which included Moses himself? Have YOU starting reading YOUR Bible and studying what it says? Do you believe that Moses didn't make it to heaven, based on Heb 3:18, 19?Rather than splurting out specious, gnostic platitudes, people need to start READING THEIR BIBLES and maybe start that by doing a simple study on faith. And maybe start with Heb 3:18f - "And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief."
Actually, for almost 2 decades I've read through the book of Acts and all the way through Revelation MONTHLY. So, you don't have to encourage me to read the Bible.Or better yet - read the book of Acts.
Having read through the NT from Acts thru Revelation, I know exactly what the Bible says about conversion and salvation.Focus on all the examples of conversion in it. Ask yourself what was the message they heard? Then ask yourself what was the response?.
Wow. If you think this even remotely parallels how to be saved, I would conclude that you are rather confused.Several people learned they were co-heirs to an estate worth a massive fortune. The executor of the estate told them he'd give each of them their keys to their portion of the estate, but that they'd have to come to his office to pick them up.
One heir complained - "Why do I need to go to the office to pick up what's already mine?" And he refused to go.
Another heir complained - "Why do I need a key to inherit that which is already mine?" And he refused to go.
The third heir said - "Wow! I'm an heir to a massive fortune??? What do I need to do?" So he went to the office and the executor gave him his key. The executor then noted the other two didn't come to pick up their keys so... he gave them to him as well.
Please provide Scriptural evidence that salvation is by obeying God's will. This is so broad and vague.
Here's a real clear verse on salvation that you might not be aware of.
Eph 2-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
iow, no one works for salvation. It is by grace through faith, NOT through obedience.
Obedience is an issue ONLY FOR THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED. As children of God, they are commanded to be obedient.
OK. Now, please cite this verse so we can examine the context for it.
A text without a context is a pretext.
Since you mention "the will of God", let's examine a verse that specifically mentions "the will of God".
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
The issue for salvation always has been faith in Christ. To believe the Gospel is obeying the Gospel.
Do you include your own efforts in what you state about "obedience"?
I made this because there are people preaching in these final years of the world, teaching that
just by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ you can be saved..
I had said this:Here is the verses 1 John 2:15-17
"15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."
I applaud when a person admits an error. I've had a number myself.I updated the original post and removed the part about 1 Peter 3:21 concerning baptism and having a good conscience toward God. My interpretation of that verse was off therefore I removed it.
Yes, I agree fully. But to say that salvation is through obedience isn't biblical. That really smacks of legalism and a works based salvation, just like the Pharisees.But we do still need to continue in obedience to God and His will to have a good conscience toward Him.
Did you mean the KJV?Also I added a link at the bottom of the original post which will take you to a PDF of the complete KJB.
I can quote James 2:17
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
and say the same exact thing about your premise.
You can't have faith without obedience unto God.
Isaiah 28:10 KJB
"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"
We must look at the whole of scripture and all of what God says, not just verses we choose out that might sound flattering to the ears.
Matthew 7:14 makes it very clear that salvation is not as easy as many would like us to believe.
It is true what you said at the end, that "most think Jesus is just as ticket to Heaven". The reason for that bit of nonsense is that pastors and Bible teachers have totally FAILED to either understand, or worse, not even know about God's very real discipline towards His children who rebel. The Bible has much to say about God's wrath (yes, I said wrath, because God's wrath is directed at sin) towards His own children. Heb 12:11 is very clear; God's discipline is PAINFUL.I agree. Many (not all) in the church today think that a believer can commit grievous sin (like hating, lusting, lying, etc. without seeking forgiveness of these sins and without forsaking them), and they can still be saved because they have a belief alone on Jesus as their Savior. But it doesn't work like that.
It is true that we are saved by God's grace, but this is only one aspect of step of salvation. Believers must enter the Sanctification Process (Live holy by the power of God) after they are saved by God's grace. Some (like my encounters with the “church of Christ”) today downplay God's grace and that is not good either. We must first be saved by God's grace through faith in Christ and the gospel (Note: The gospel is believing that Christ died for us, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We also must eventually accept the truth in seeking forgiveness of our sins with Jesus, as well (Romans 10:13, 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, Hebrews 4:16). This is also a part of God's grace. But after we are saved by God's grace, we do not have a license to sin. We need to enter into the second work of God, or the second step of the salvation process called “Sanctification.” This is putting away grievous sin, doing good work (Such as loving God, helping the poor, spreading the gospel message via either by tract or telling others about Jesus and His salvation, loving the brethren, loving your enemies, and living holy, etc.). Most think Jesus is just a ticket to Heaven. They do not realize that Jesus is supposed to change our lives, too.
I strongly disagree. Please support this claim from the Bible that eternal life can die. Otherwise, I recommend that you change your opinion.Many believers will not see that sin can destroy us spiritually.
Nonsense. The Bible is full of the promise of God's discipline. And the idea that sin can result in loss of salvation is merely an opinion, based on fantasy.Some will bring up chastening as a defense that they can sin and still be saved.
OK, go ahead and try to minimize discipline for sin to dog poop. But that's on you. Instead, memorize Isa 1:18-20, since you seem unaware of God's discipline.But the whole purpose of chastening is to correct the bad behavior (like a master who chastens his dog for pooping on his carpet).
Well, you just met one. Of course we are to overcome sin. But don't be seduced or tricked into thinking that means to no longer sin. As a human being with a sinful nature we were born with, that won't occur until we leave our physical bodies.But there is a problem. I have never seen any “Eternal Security (OSAS) Proponent,” or “Non-OSAS Sin and Still Be Saved Proponent” actually teach that we must overcome sin in this life.
Even Paul struggled with his sinful nature. I recommend reading Romans 7 and pay particular attention to the present tense.They all say that one cannot overcome grievous sin this side of Heaven.
Basically this is just an admission that you can't figure it out. That doesn't mean it doesn't serve a real purpose, just because you can't understand it.So then chastening serves no real purpose.
OK, back to dog poop. <sigh>A master corrects a dog for pooping on his carpets so as to get the dog to stop pooping on his carpets. That's the goal of him chastening his dog.
Interesting view. Now, can you back up your opinion from Scripture.I believe God only uses chastening to stop a rebellious sinning believer or a believer who treats sin casually for ONLY those believers who know that sin can destroy them spiritually.
Your question reveals a serious lack of awareness of biblical principles. Do you really think God isn't that capable of inflicting pain on a rebellious child? Why wouldn't anyone who actually understands the Bible not fear God's painful discipline? It seems your view on discipline is quite naive.The concept of chastening does not make any sense for the believer who holds to “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS) because what do they have to really fear?
Maybe you've never heard of loss of job (financial stability), or loss of status (in whatever field you may be in), loss of health, etc. I could go on and on. But you seem quite naive about what God can remove from His children.The loss of physical things? Believers are to look to that which is spiritual and not that which is carnal.
Yes, we ARE to chase after Christ, and put their treasures in heaven. btw, do you have any idea what "treasures in heaven" refer to?They are to chase after Christ, and put their treasures in Heaven.
Paul says “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” (Philippians 1:21). Jesus says, “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28) (Note: “Hell” will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death - Revelation 20:14).
This snarky quip reveals the extreme bias it seems you have towards those who believe Jesus' words in John 10:28. There's no way to have any kind of adult reasonable and rational discussion if that's your view of those who believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.So the Eternal Security Proponent who wants to sin will just continue to do so.
Ever heard of comparing apples with oranges? Let's not go there.Unbelievers go through the same challenges in life.
Huh? Is that what you think unbelievers think? Even so, so what about what they think? What's your point here, because it has nothing to do with eternal security.So they have nothing to lose by the loss of health, wealth, etc.; They will ultimately make into Heaven one day. So they can have the best of both worlds. They can sin, and also have Heaven.
My opinion is that only a really stupid kid would knowingly violate their parent's rules and pay the price for it.For if most believers knew that no sin can separate me from God, and only chastening was the only means of correction, they would have their best life now and live in sin also hope for Heaven.
As I pointed out earlier, the real fault is found in their pastors and Bible teachers.And this is exactly what we see today. Many are justifying sin as a result.
I agree.Of course, their belief cannot be found in the Scriptures.
And there is just as much no basis for the view that salvation can be lost.Sure, they may be able to take a verse or two here and there out of context. But there is no Biblical basis or moral basis for their belief.
Why would He? Where do you get your opinions from? Certainly not the Bible.God would have to agree with a believer's sinful lifestyle on some level in order to save them.
You might not be aware, but this idea suggests that Christ didn't die for ALL sins. Yet, the Bible says He did. You need to re-evaluate your opinions. They are not biblical.God would be complicit with their sin if He saved a believer who rebels and sins against Him.
The Bible tells us clearly who will be cast into the lake of fire; those whose names are not in the book of life. This means those who never received the gift of eternal life.Many believers are confused on this topic today because they do not realize that Christ will send forth His angels to gather out of HIS Kingdom all things that offend (sin) and them who work iniquity (lawlessness) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire.
41 “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:41-42).
This is only your opinion, and it is baseless. Those who believe this kind of opinion seem to have a very limited grasp of God's grace.Eternal Security leads to lawlessness and justifying sin on some level.
I'll be happy to bring some light to this idea from the Greek.As for those who bring up 1 Corinthians 11:30 in regards to how a believer can sin and still be saved.
29 “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.”
(1 Corinthians 11:29-32).
Verse 29 - says that he (the believer) who drinks unworthily eats and drinks damnation to himself. The word “damnation” has never been used in reference to those who are saved. Jesus said to the Pharisees, “how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (Matthew 23:33). In other words, the word damnation is tied to hell.
Throughout both epistles, Paul repeatedly affirms their saved state. Please read both of them.Verse 30 does not state the salvation status of a believer who is sick and who sleeps (dies).
Right. If we judge ourselves, God doesn't need to judge us.Verse 31 says if we shall judge ourselves will not be judged.
Please go back to the Greek word in v.29 for "judged". Your views are driven by an inaccurate understanding of the original words.Verse 32 is mentions that the believer who is judged is the one who is chastened so that they should not be condemned with the world. It does not say that our chastening is an automatic guarantee that we will always lead us to not being condemned with the world. It says, "that we SHOULD NOT... be condemned with the world."
Note that v.6 and v.10 prove that they were saved, because there is no comparison between the saved and unsaved.In fact, if we were to skip back one chapter, we learn of the error of the Israelites who fell in the wilderness.
6 “Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: : and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
(1 Corinthians 10:6-12).
The Israelites were examples to us so as for us to take heed so that we will not fall. In Acts 7, Stephen talks about those in the wilderness and how they resisted the Holy Ghost as did the current Jews who were about to stone him.
I'm not going to address the Hebrews verses you quoted. But I will ask you one question. Did Moses go to heaven or hell?The Israelites hardened their heart by their sin and it led to unbelief in God.
Then give it your best shot.The wrong interpretation on John 10:28 by OSAS proponents is pretty easy to refute.
The fallacy in your thinking is that there are words in v.27 that form a condition for the result in v.28. But there isn't. v.27 is a description of WHAT His sheep DO, NOT how to become His sheep. So you are reading the verse incorrectly. You're trying to force the verse to say something it does not say.We can just look at the verse before it and we will be able to read the following:
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”
(John 10:27).
A believer who is justifying sin or thinking they can sin and still be saved is not following Jesus. Jesus never justified sin.
Please re-read both verses. v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO, or what they OUGHT TO DO.So the sheep that Jesus is talking about in John 10:28 that cannot be snatched out of his hand are the sheep that FOLLOW Jesus, and are they are the kind of sheep that KNOW Jesus (i.e. they truly keep His commandments and they are not justifying sin or justifying a belief that makes room to disobey God).
Not so fast. You claimed that John 10:27-28 meant that ONLY those believers who listened and followed Jesus would never perish. That is pure nonsense. The language is very clear, so I'm not going to let you get away with your baseless claim.My words with Scripture stand all on their own and they do not need anymore defending.
You are right. It is so basic. Your "interpretation" lacks any conditional clause that is REQUIRED for your "interpretation" to be correct.So there is no need to go back and forth on something so basic.
I'll tell you what I don't see. Any conditional clauses that are REQUIRED for your "interpretation" to be correct.I believe certain folks will just never see what I am trying to show them on this topic because they don't want to see it.
How about learning what constitutes a conditional clause and how to recognize one?In other words, I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot make it drink.
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