REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

David Kent · Jun 30, 2018

Dorothy,

The early church and Historicists teach that the Let and Hindrance was the Roman Empire and the Empero, based on Daniel 7 and other scriptures. Futurists mainly believe that is is the church and Holy spirit to be removed, based on a verse in Genesis, taken completely out of context.

What do you preterists believe it was?

David Kent · Jun 30, 2018

Choir Loft said:
(2) Use of the word 'church' is ambiguous, since church is legally defined as a financial organization with the right to collect income and own property - a tax exempt franchise. A spiritual entity would not hold a warranty deed on real estate nor would it collect and manage money.

May be in your country, but in our country a church as a Charity cannot hold property. They have to have trustees and they have the say as to what can and can't be done with the property. They own the church building and the manse, the house where our pastor would live. A few years ago we were in breach of the rules when we let out our manse to a tenant without the trustees permission. There is a new legal arrangement in the last couple of years, which is to become a CIO, that is a Charitable Incorporated Organisation, which would allow us to hold the property. It also means that the organisation is responsible for any legal action against the church, under the current system, the Pastor, Elders and Deacons are liable to unlimited damages in any legal claims against them.

Biblewriter · Jun 30, 2018

David Kent said:
OK, I accept that. But is seems you agree that the latter times are not the last days as Romanism has been doing that for centuries.

Yes, in scripture, even apparently small differences in terminology are always significant.

Choir Loft · Jul 4, 2018

Al Masihi said:
Well it’s very hard to equate the modern day state of Israel with the Biblical kingdom of Israel. Although both are Jewish states ruled by Jews, the modern state of Israel is a secular state that doesn’t rule by Torah law as ancient Israel did, the modern state of Israel and Judaism in general has no more temple, the modern state of Israel was founded through a legal UN mandate and of course the colonial powers who drew the borders of Israel along with all the Arab nations, it wasn’t founded through divine intervention, unless you count the Arab-Israeli wars. The real Israel remains in the heart of the believers and the Church of Jesus Christ.

You have your facts wrong about Israel.

1. Israel was never a theocracy.

According to the Bible as well as historic records, ancient Israel was ruled by judges and kings, never by priests. The religion of Adonai, which finds its guidance and inspiration in Torah, provided moral and ethical guidance but did not impinge upon political rule. Today Israel is a democracy, the political environment of which is determined by numerous religious groups including but not limited to Jewish parties, Muslim citizens and the Roman Catholic church.

2. Divine intervention is solely responsible for the existence of the modern State of Israel.

The day after the British mandate in Palestine ended, Israel was attacked by neighboring Arab states numbering some sixty million people. Israel would not have been brought into existence at all if not for the hand of God and it would not have lasted a week except by divine providence. The nation is a miracle of deliverance for all the world to see.

3. There is no reference to a "real Israel in the heart of Christians".

There is no such thing as spiritual Israel. This anti-semitic doctrine of demons was concocted by Jew haters and con men who wanted to literally steal Israel's thunder for themselves. In point of fact, the Bible clearly states that the driving force for the Kingdom of God is Jesus Christ. There is NO contextual basis for believing the church has replaced Israel in the Kingdom of God.

Which part of NO is not understood here?

Christ is called the root and the Jewish people are natural branches of that root defined allegorically by the figure of a grape vine and the process of vine cultivation. According to the Bible, not pseudo-Christian heresy, SOME of the natural branches (Jews) were separated from the root (Jesus) of the Kingdom because of disobedience. Goyim (gentiles) were attached or grafted into the root by God. Gentiles did not replace Jews, they were added to their number in the Kingdom. Read the book.

This being said, the apostle Paul cautioned gentile converts in Christ to NOT be arrogant and proud of being accepted into the Kingdom of God. He warned that they could as easily be cut off as some Jews before them. In point of fact, this process is already underway among several major denominations. In truth many Jews are turning to Christ and accepting His sacrifice and Lordship in their lives. The movement is accelerating and had its beginning at the point where the church began to reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the authority of the Bible and salvation in the Name of Christ.

I perceive in the quoted post much lack of truth and intended bias against Jews and Israel. At this point Balaam's curse should be remembered.

"I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." - Genesis 12:3

May the Master of the Universe bless Israel and the Jewish people and may He hold them in the palm of His mighty hand. May the curses and lies of the enemies of Israel return upon their heads tenfold.

May those who know and love Jesus Christ, the King of the Jews, be always reminded and appreciative of His kindness and mercy toward us.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Choir Loft · Jul 4, 2018

David Kent said:
May be in your country, but in our country a church as a Charity cannot hold property. They have to have trustees and they have the say as to what can and can't be done with the property. They own the church building and the manse, the house where our pastor would live. A few years ago we were in breach of the rules when we let out our manse to a tenant without the trustees permission. There is a new legal arrangement in the last couple of years, which is to become a CIO, that is a Charitable Incorporated Organisation, which would allow us to hold the property. It also means that the organisation is responsible for any legal action against the church, under the current system, the Pastor, Elders and Deacons are liable to unlimited damages in any legal claims against them.

You didn't read my post. I'll repeat its most important point for you here.

A spiritual entity would not hold a warranty deed on real estate nor would it collect and manage money.

By whatever form you call it, even as you describe your own situation, the church or religious organization or franchise or corporation that does hold or own property is by definition NOT spiritual in nature. Can a spirit sign on the dotted line of contractual agreement? Can a spirit be subpoenaed to appear in a court of law?

Which part of physical vs. spirit do you not understand?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Barney2.0 · Jul 4, 2018

Choir Loft said:
You have your facts wrong about Israel.

1. Israel was never a theocracy.

According to the Bible as well as historic records, ancient Israel was ruled by judges and kings, never by priests. The religion of Adonai, which finds its guidance and inspiration in Torah, provided moral and ethical guidance but did not impinge upon political rule. Today Israel is a democracy, the political environment of which is determined by numerous religious groups including but not limited to Jewish parties, Muslim citizens and the Roman Catholic church.

2. Divine intervention is solely responsible for the existence of the modern State of Israel.

The day after the British mandate in Palestine ended, Israel was attacked by neighboring Arab states numbering some sixty million people. Israel would not have been brought into existence at all if not for the hand of God and it would not have lasted a week except by divine providence. The nation is a miracle of deliverance for all the world to see.

3. There is no reference to a "real Israel in the heart of Christians".

There is no such thing as spiritual Israel. This anti-semitic doctrine of demons was concocted by Jew haters and con men who wanted to literally steal Israel's thunder for themselves. In point of fact, the Bible clearly states that the driving force for the Kingdom of God is Jesus Christ. There is NO contextual basis for believing the church has replaced Israel in the Kingdom of God.

Which part of NO is not understood here?

Christ is called the root and the Jewish people are natural branches of that root defined allegorically by the figure of a grape vine and the process of vine cultivation. According to the Bible, not pseudo-Christian heresy, SOME of the natural branches (Jews) were separated from the root (Jesus) of the Kingdom because of disobedience. Goyim (gentiles) were attached or grafted into the root by God. Gentiles did not replace Jews, they were added to their number in the Kingdom. Read the book.

This being said, the apostle Paul cautioned gentile converts in Christ to NOT be arrogant and proud of being accepted into the Kingdom of God. He warned that they could as easily be cut off as some Jews before them. In point of fact, this process is already underway among several major denominations. In truth many Jews are turning to Christ and accepting His sacrifice and Lordship in their lives. The movement is accelerating and had its beginning at the point where the church began to reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the authority of the Bible and salvation in the Name of Christ.

I perceive in the quoted post much lack of truth and intended bias against Jews and Israel. At this point Balaam's curse should be remembered.

"I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." - Genesis 12:3

May the Master of the Universe bless Israel and the Jewish people and may He hold them in the palm of His mighty hand. May the curses and lies of the enemies of Israel return upon their heads tenfold.

May those who know and love Jesus Christ, the King of the Jews, be always reminded and appreciative of His kindness and mercy toward us.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Ancient Israel ran by Torah law, today’s Israel runs by secular law modeled on the secularism of America and Europe. Israel already knew of the Arab attack before it happened and launched a preemptive strike, the Arabs had practically no battle plan other then to flood Israel’s controlled territory with sheer numbers of troops, while the Israelis did and they managed to strike the Arabs at each destination before the Arabs could react thus winning the war. There was no divine intervention, just military strategy. Jews reject Jesus Christ so that removes them from being Gods chosen people. God doesn’t reject the Jews it was the Jews who rejected him:

http://saintandrewgoc.org/home/2016/3/16/ne27pq3bd9ysjukot6qjhr6hagiy6n

David Kent · Jul 4, 2018

Choir Loft said:
1. Israel was never a theocracy.

According to the Bible as well as historic records, ancient Israel was ruled by judges and kings, never by priests. The religion of Adonai, which finds its guidance and inspiration in Torah, provided moral and ethical guidance but did not impinge upon political rule

After the the Maccabees Israel was ruled by priests some of them called themselves kings, and one queen.

David Kent · Jul 4, 2018

Also they wanted a king because they did not want God to rule over them, 1 Sammuel, 8:7.

MWood · Jul 4, 2018

The Nation of Israel was under the rule of Priests from the anointing of Aaron as High priest to the anointing of Saul as King.
This was a theocracy. They heard the voice of God during those years.

Choir Loft · Jul 7, 2018

MWood said:
The Nation of Israel was under the rule of Priests from the anointing of Aaron as High priest to the anointing of Saul as King.
This was a theocracy. They heard the voice of God during those years.

The rule of priests or priestly line was separate from the political rule of kings.

While Aaron was the first High Priest, the first king didn't come along until centuries later in the person of Saul.
Saul was succeeded by Is-bosheth for a time and then David.
King David was followed by his son Solomon who was succeeded by his idiot son Rehoboham.

At this point civil war tore the nation into two sections; Israel composed of ten tribes to the north and Judah composed of two tribes in the south.

The line of kings then proceeds in two directions with king succeeding king in each separate political entity.

At no time did priests fulfill political office.

In the line of Jeroboam, the kings of Israel/Samaria were;
Jeroboam, Nadab, Baasha, Elah, Zimri, Omri and Ahab.
Ahaziah, Jehoram, Jehu and Jehoahaz followed all succeeded by ...
Jehoash, Jeroboam II, Zechariah, Shallum, Menahem, Pekahaiah, Pekah.

In the reign of Hoshea Israel collapsed under the invasions of Assyria and ended as a unified political entity.

In the line of David, the kings of Judah following Rehoboam were;
Abijah, Asa, Jehosphat, Jehoram, Ahaziah, Athaliah, Jehoash, Amaziah, Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, Manasseh, Amon, Josiah, Jehoahaz, Jehoiakim, Jeconiah and finally Zedekiah.

In the reign of Zedekiah Jerusalem was sacked by the Chaldeans and the surviving Jews were taken captive to Babylon.

Again......

At no time in history did priests hold the office of a king in either Israel or Judah.

That being said there are two unique persons in scripture that did hold both offices; of king and of priest.

Melchizedek is mentioned in Genesis as a king who also assumed the title of Kohen or cohen which means priest. Melchizedek was the first cohen. This person is a rather vague character and not much is known about him in scripture or the writings of historians such as Josephus. His position as priest and office as political ruler or king forms a template of a Great One who is to come.

The other person is Yeshuah ha-mashiach (or Jesus Christ as the son of God is called in Greek). Messiah means the anointed One and the only priest-king that is described in detail in the Bible. Prophetic passages about this Son of Jacob (suffering servant) as well as the future Son of David (righteous judge and defender of Israel) number in the dozens.

NO, neither the kingdoms of Israel nor Judah heard the voice of God at all times. During the hundreds of years when they wallowed in sin and rebellion against God there was a famine of the Word of God. Several of the minor prophets attest to divine silence.

A theocracy is political rule of a government by priests - or God in absentia. For instance, the government of Iran is a theocracy.
The government of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia as well as the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah were monarchy.
The government of the United Kingdom (Great Britain) is a constitutional monarchy.
The government of the United States is a republic subservient to the ruling fascist powers of the Deep State. (*)

Hope this clears things up. Neither Israel nor Judah were ever ruled by priests.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Deep State powers consist of;
Military-Industrial complex identified by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in January 1960.
Intelligence Community created by act of congress in 1948.
Financial cartel including but not limited to Wall Street.

Copperhead · Jul 14, 2018

David Kent said:
Dorothy,

The early church and Historicists teach that the Let and Hindrance was the Roman Empire and the Empero, based on Daniel 7 and other scriptures. Futurists mainly believe that is is the church and Holy spirit to be removed, based on a verse in Genesis, taken completely out of context.

There are many futurists who believe, while agreeing with you that the church is removed, that the Holy Spirit remains. Many see the "taken out of the way" of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 as more akin to a linebacker in football stepping aside and allowing the opposition thru to the backfield. One of the primary purposes of the HS is to restrain evil. That restraint is removed, allowing the floodgate of evil to engulf the earth. But the HS remains. There is no way anyone can come to the Lord without the leading of the HS for one. The other is that the HS is everywhere all at once. It is impossible for the HS to be removed. But He can take a hands off approach and allow the evil one to persevere.

And along with that, one of the other jobs of the HS is to obtain and deliver the bride to the Messiah. The same role as the unnamed servant of Abraham did for Isaac by obtaining and Rebekah (Genesis 24). Notice the servant's name is never mentioned, nor do we hear about him again after he delivered Rebekah to Isaac. The unnamed servant is not the focus of the story, a bride for Isaac is. The pattern is not unlike the Church today and Messiah. It is one of the HS job's to obtain the bride for Messiah and deliver that bride to Him. But the HS hands off the bride to the Messiah and then steps out of the way.

Many would contend that at that point Israel again becomes the main focus on the Earth. The ruling establishment of Israel must call out for the Messiah's return as expounded in Hosea 5:15 - Hosea 6:1-2 and Matthew 23:37-39 before Messiah can physically return and set His foot on the Mt. of Olives as per Zechariah 14:3-4. Always keep in mind, Yeshua was commenting about the leadership of Israel when He made His comment in Matthew. He was embracing the prophecy of Hosea. Not individual Jews, as the Church initially was all Jewish. The disciples and the hundreds that followed Yeshua around were primarily Jewish. It is the national entity of Israel corporately as led by the political establishment of the Pharisees and Saducees that was the problem and Yeshua was addressing. Likewise, Hosea had the v

Hence, this is why many futurists do not believe that that Church has replaced Israel. They are two unique identities, both with different purposes and destinies. Individual salvation is the same way, thru the Messiah alone, but as entities, they are different. And it gives a very plausible explanation why Satan has put so much energy into destroying the Jewish people from the earth over the centuries... so as a corporate entity they cannot call out for Messiah's return. Having been unable to pull that one off thanks to the HS, the next best thing is to claim that Israel is an imposter and not a valid entity. It does require disavowing the prophecy of Ezekiel 4 as viewed in the light of Leviticus 26.

David Kent · Jul 14, 2018

Copperhead said:
And along with that, one of the other jobs of the HS is to obtain and deliver the bride to the Messiah. The same role as the unnamed servant of Abraham did for Isaac by obtaining and Rebekah (Genesis 24). Notice the servant's name is never mentioned, nor do we hear about him again after he delivered Rebekah to Isaac. The unnamed servant is not the focus of the story, a bride for Isaac is. The pattern is not unlike the Church today and Messiah. It is one of the HS job's to obtain the bride for Messiah and deliver that bride to Him. But the HS hands off the bride to the Messiah and then steps out of the way.

That is the main role of the Holy Spirit as well as to convict the World of sin

The Roman Empire was removed peacefully when Constanine moved it to the East. After that nothing calling itself Roman Empire ruled from Rome except the papacy, and it still does.

David Kent · Jul 14, 2018

Choir Loft said:
Hope this clears things up. Neither Israel nor Judah were ever ruled by priests.

Samuel was a priest and ruled. After Antiochus was defeated. the High priest took the title of king till Herod became King of the Jews.

Choir Loft · Jul 17, 2018

Al Masihi said:
Ancient Israel ran by Torah law, today’s Israel runs by secular law modeled on the secularism of America and Europe. Israel already knew of the Arab attack before it happened and launched a preemptive strike, the Arabs had practically no battle plan other then to flood Israel’s controlled territory with sheer numbers of troops, while the Israelis did and they managed to strike the Arabs at each destination before the Arabs could react thus winning the war. There was no divine intervention, just military strategy. Jews reject Jesus Christ so that removes them from being Gods chosen people. God doesn’t reject the Jews it was the Jews who rejected him:

http://saintandrewgoc.org/home/2016/3/16/ne27pq3bd9ysjukot6qjhr6hagiy6n

Government
The Knesset, Israel's governing body, is modeled after the British parliament not the American congress. Knesset issues are decided by many political groups and parties whereas the American legislative process is deliberately restricted to two.

In both countries lobbyists wield great influence.

The modern State of Israel has a constitution or legal standard by which the government operates. America also has a constitution, but we have largely abandoned it as a standard.(1)

Ancient Israel applied the principles of Torah to every aspect of their lives. The modern American tendency to flush morality, the rule of law, religious values and proper deportment down the toilet makes any comparison irrelevant. Ancient Israel used Torah as a moral and religious benchmark. It was a monarchy NOT a theocracy. Read the Bible.

Court System
Your confusion may have arisen due to a mistaken interpretation of the role of the Sanhedrin. In ancient Israel the Sanhedrin was composed of a system of rabbinic courts. A lesser Sanhedrin was installed in each city, while the Great Sanhedrin sat in Jerusalem until the destruction of the city by Rome. The court system functioned to resolve disputes between citizens or determine guilt in a criminal action. Unlike the American court system, the Sanhedrin did not make law.

There is a Sanhedrin in Israel today, but it has no real power either legislative or judicial.

WAR
There was no pre-emptive strike by the State of Israel during the War of Independence. However there were several in the years that followed. Your reference to a pre-emptive Israeli strike is nebulous. Which one?

You are correct in stating that during the war of Israeli Independence Arab states suffered from uncoordinated attacks on exterior lines. Each nation mounted its own attack without any sort of overall master plan or without competent communication with their allies.

Israel had no plans of its own either.

Israel defense operates on interior lines, which according to every military expert in history, has advantages in the ability of the defender to switch resources quickly to meet attacks. Since Arabs were not organized during the War of Independence, they acted out of disadvantage. Several attempts were made in the years that followed to unite Arab nations in a common aggression against Israel. Most notable among these were Egyptian leaders Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar Sadat both of which suffered ignominious defeat at the hands of the IDF.

That being said, the War of Independence as well as every other Arab campaign, chronicled the hand of God working directly on the battlefield. There are miraculous stories of Israeli deliverance from every front and nearly every day. Books and documentaries tell the tales of divine providence and its deliverance of Israel at every point. In one instance an advancing Arab column was halted by a sign from God in the heavens.(2) There are far too many to relate here, but they happened in sufficient number to secure Israeli existence to the present day and into the future.

I personally spoke to a man who participated in the 1967 war and who told me many miracles of God he had seen on the battlefield (3) or that he'd heard of from his comrades.

It is impossible for any Arab state to gain victory over Israel because God is with Israel to defend them and to hold them in the palm of His mighty hand. God fights for Israel.

Those that bless Israel are blessed by God. Those that curse Israel or take up arms against her suffer terrible consequences for their acts.

As for me and my family, we pray that God defend Israel and cause them to prosper mightily. May God set a bountiful table for Israel in the midst of their enemies. May God hold Israel in the palm of His hand.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(1)
US law is applied according to judicial precedent, not by strict interpretation of the constitution as many Americans mistakenly believe. Jurists describe constitutional law as "a living document" meaning that it changes subject to the opinion du jour thus becoming precedent by which all other courts abide.

(2)
The sign was a giant hand in the sky raised in a palm out attitude signifying 'stop'. There were no Israeli defenders to stop the column, but when the Arab soldiers saw the sign they halted and went no further. IDF soldiers, who had not seen the sign, asked why the Arabs halted their advance and learned from their enemies the reason for their victory.

(3)
The man was embedded in an IDF column which engaged an Egyptian column. He told me that every single bullet and shell fired by the IDF hit its intended target. None of their shots bullets or bombs missed. Anyone who has ever fired a gun can tell you its easier to miss a target than to hit one.

Choir Loft · Jul 17, 2018

David Kent said:
Samuel was a priest and ruled. After Antiochus was defeated. the High priest took the title of king till Herod became King of the Jews.

Samuel was high priest and also the first of the prophets of Israel.

Saul was the first king of Israel.

Its in the Bible. Read it.

The office of King and the offices of priest and prophet are not mixed with but two exceptions.

Again - the Bible only mentions two men who held or will hold the position of priest and king at the same time.

Melchizedek King of Salem (Jerusalem) is declared by scripture to be a model for the future King of Israel.

Melchizedek ruled during the time of Abraham - long before Israel was formed as a nation. He most definitely was NOT of the line of Aaron - of the priests of Israel.

Neither is Yeshuah (Jesus) of the line of Aaron or of the line of kings.(*)

Therefore the book of Hebrews says that Jesus is "of the order of Melchizedek" meaning priest and king, but not of the line of either.

During His ministry on earth two thousand years ago, Jesus served in the office of prophet.
During and following His death resurrection and ascension, Jesus serves in the office of High Priest.
When Yeshuah returns He will fulfill the office of King.

The succession of priests and kings of ancient Israel can be found in the Bible or scholarly works. It is not in dispute by anyone except those few who wish to obfuscate the person and office of Yeshuah ha-mashiach by means of caliginous references to the contrary.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. - Isaiah 9:6

If the Bible is to be believed, then there is only ONE person who could have or will fulfill the position of prophet priest and king.

If others held those positions, then all assumptions about who Jesus is or will be are wrong and Jesus isn't who we think He is.

There are many today who cast aspersions upon the Name and credibility and Position of the Son of God. There are many today who vehemently cry out that there is no God or that He had no Son.

Which are you?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Priests are descendants of the tribe of Levi. Yeshuah is of the tribe of Judah.

Yeshuah's parents were Jews, but although Joseph was His father according to marital law, God was His father in fact. The right of succession for those who held high office were traced through the father, not the mother.

Therefore Jesus is Jewish by birth, but holds the right of succession to the office of King and God by reason of descent from His father - He who is called God.

Barney2.0 · Jul 17, 2018

Choir Loft said:
Government
The Knesset, Israel's governing body, is modeled after the British parliament not the American congress. Knesset issues are decided by many political groups and parties whereas the American legislative process is deliberately restricted to two.

In both countries lobbyists wield great influence.

The modern State of Israel has a constitution or legal standard by which the government operates. America also has a constitution, but we have largely abandoned it as a standard.(1)

Ancient Israel applied the principles of Torah to every aspect of their lives. The modern American tendency to flush morality, the rule of law, religious values and proper deportment down the toilet makes any comparison irrelevant. Ancient Israel used Torah as a moral and religious benchmark. It was a monarchy NOT a theocracy. Read the Bible.

Court System
Your confusion may have arisen due to a mistaken interpretation of the role of the Sanhedrin. In ancient Israel the Sanhedrin was composed of a system of rabbinic courts. A lesser Sanhedrin was installed in each city, while the Great Sanhedrin sat in Jerusalem until the destruction of the city by Rome. The court system functioned to resolve disputes between citizens or determine guilt in a criminal action. Unlike the American court system, the Sanhedrin did not make law.

There is a Sanhedrin in Israel today, but it has no real power either legislative or judicial.

WAR
There was no pre-emptive strike by the State of Israel during the War of Independence. However there were several in the years that followed. Your reference to a pre-emptive Israeli strike is nebulous. Which one?

You are correct in stating that during the war of Israeli Independence Arab states suffered from uncoordinated attacks on exterior lines. Each nation mounted its own attack without any sort of overall master plan or without competent communication with their allies.

Israel had no plans of its own either.

Israel defense operates on interior lines, which according to every military expert in history, has advantages in the ability of the defender to switch resources quickly to meet attacks. Since Arabs were not organized during the War of Independence, they acted out of disadvantage. Several attempts were made in the years that followed to unite Arab nations in a common aggression against Israel. Most notable among these were Egyptian leaders Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar Sadat both of which suffered ignominious defeat at the hands of the IDF.

That being said, the War of Independence as well as every other Arab campaign, chronicled the hand of God working directly on the battlefield. There are miraculous stories of Israeli deliverance from every front and nearly every day. Books and documentaries tell the tales of divine providence and its deliverance of Israel at every point. In one instance an advancing Arab column was halted by a sign from God in the heavens.(2) There are far too many to relate here, but they happened in sufficient number to secure Israeli existence to the present day and into the future.

I personally spoke to a man who participated in the 1967 war and who told me many miracles of God he had seen on the battlefield (3) or that he'd heard of from his comrades.

It is impossible for any Arab state to gain victory over Israel because God is with Israel to defend them and to hold them in the palm of His mighty hand. God fights for Israel.

Those that bless Israel are blessed by God. Those that curse Israel or take up arms against her suffer terrible consequences for their acts.

As for me and my family, we pray that God defend Israel and cause them to prosper mightily. May God set a bountiful table for Israel in the midst of their enemies. May God hold Israel in the palm of His hand.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(1)
US law is applied according to judicial precedent, not by strict interpretation of the constitution as many Americans mistakenly believe. Jurists describe constitutional law as "a living document" meaning that it changes subject to the opinion du jour thus becoming precedent by which all other courts abide.

(2)
The sign was a giant hand in the sky raised in a palm out attitude signifying 'stop'. There were no Israeli defenders to stop the column, but when the Arab soldiers saw the sign they halted and went no further. IDF soldiers, who had not seen the sign, asked why the Arabs halted their advance and learned from their enemies the reason for their victory.

(3)
The man was embedded in an IDF column which engaged an Egyptian column. He told me that every single bullet and shell fired by the IDF hit its intended target. None of their shots bullets or bombs missed. Anyone who has ever fired a gun can tell you its easier to miss a target than to hit one.

None of these reasons prove modern day Israel has anything to do with the Biblical kingdom of Israel.

David Kent · Jul 17, 2018

Choir Loft said:
(1)
US law is applied according to judicial precedent, not by strict interpretation of the constitution as many Americans mistakenly believe. Jurists describe constitutional law as "a living document" meaning that it changes subject to the opinion du jour thus becoming precedent by which all other courts abide.

In other words they make up the law as they go along? No wwonder you get so many perverse judgements.

You also do a lot of mind reading of the Isrealis

Choir Loft · Jul 18, 2018

Al Masihi said:
None of these reasons prove modern day Israel has anything to do with the Biblical kingdom of Israel.

Now here is a mystery - that there is no proof the State of Israel has anything to do with the Biblical kingdom of Israel.

Except that there's plenty of proof.....

Numerous proofs and documentation have been provided both in the Bible and posts I've entered here.

Here's a few more....

- The people are the same. Jews inhabit the modern state just as they did the ancient state.
- The traditions and ceremonies, such as pesach, are identical.
- Holy scripture is identical.
- They worship Adonai just as their forebears.
- They recite the shema as a statement of faith just as their fathers did.
- God's promise to restore Israel to the land has been fulfilled precisely.
- Divine miracles have accompanied the establishment and preservation of the State of Israel.
- Israelis speak and write the same language in the 21st century as in ancient times.

The issue here is not sufficiency of proofs, but the suppression of proof.

The same cannot be said of the church,
..as spiritual successor or replacement of ancient Israel in any form .....
the church denies the God of Israel,
denies the Bible is the inspired Word of God,
has rejected the ministry of the Holy Spirit,
and has corrupted the gospel itself as taught by Christ and His apostles
.........to the point it has become unrecognizable from 1st century believers.

The church has NO legitimate basis upon which to claim it represents anything except itself.

Here are some proofs of that sad state of affairs;

- Founded by Jews in the first century, the gospel was kidnapped by the church and corrupted by its pagan ideologies. Thus the beliefs of the 21st century church has NOTHING to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

- Every church group speaks its national language. There are no common words among them. The church has nothing to do with its national neighbors and denies its historic roots in Hebrew (Old Covenant).

- The Bible states that God established Jesus Christ as the head of the church, yet Roman Emperor Constantine gave legal rights to the church to hold property, tax its members, establish the priesthood, and determine ideology including adoption of pagan philosophy directly into Christianity. The church as established by the apostles of Christ has NOTHING to do with the gospel as described in the Bible.

- The Protestant Church is illegitimate by every measure known to civilization. It is a rebellious cult, which broke off from the legal church established by Constantine. It retains pagan beliefs and traditions of Catholicism while inaugurating its own heresies. The Protestant church has NOTHING to do with the gospel as described in the Bible.

- The church has continuously been guilty of crimes against humanity particularly the Jewish people. From earliest records of gentile capture of the church in the third century to the present day refusal to recognize Jewish roots of the Christian religion, the right of Jews to live and the establishment of Israel by act of divine providence has been the rule. The gentile church has NOTHING to do with Biblical revelation and salvation.

- The church lies when it claims to love others. No other religious group has established slavery as an advantage to its economy and genocide as national policy (Native Americans as well as Jews). Anti-semitism has been at the core of Christian behavior, theology, as well as throughout its disgusting history.

No other religion, not even Islam, has been responsible for shedding so much Jewish blood.

Yet Christians continue to assert they are more righteous than the Jews (or anybody else for that matter) and deserve the mantle of spiritual leadership of humanity. If this isn't the greatest example of conceit ever thrust upon mankind I do not know of one better.

Christian nations are guilty of shedding more blood among themselves as well as other nationalities and religions, than all other religions and nations combined. The church has NOTHING to do with the love of Christ as presented in the Bible.

The gentile church has NOTHING to do with respect of God, His Chosen People or the rule of law as established in the Ten Commandments. Murder, lies and thievery are the hallmark of Christian history with regard to Jews and Israel. The church has NOTHING to do with Biblical concepts of love and tolerance.

No proof that the modern State of Israel has anything to do with ancient Biblical Israel?

There are plenty of proofs if you want documentation.

There is also plenty of anti-semitic argument provided by the church, an illegitimate cult that claims to love God, to deny the divine purpose in Israel, to deny the truth of the Old Covenant and to even deny the right of the Jewish people a homeland and the right to live their lives in peace.

Show me proof that the church has anything at all to do with worship and respect of God AS GOD HAS ORDAINED IN THE WORDS OF THE OLD COVENANT. I suspect you will not be able to provide many at all. Many Christians even deny the right of the Old Covenant to be included in the full body of the Holy Bible. Post Modernist ideology has so fully corrupted the church that it no longer holds the Word of God sacrosanct. At least four main denominations have denied the Bible completely(1). As a consequence God has pronounced them Ichabod(2).

I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
- God speaking to Abraham concerning Abraham's progeny, the people of Israel
Genesis 12:3

Beware the anti-semitic attitude of Christians. El Shaddai has made promises to Israel. Acting and believing contrary to them is dangerous.

Replacement Theology is irrelevant. God is not interested in that opinion.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(1)
The Presbyterian church, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, the United Methodist Church and the Episcopal church have all made official statements by national church assemblies, conclaves and/or conventions that the Bible is not the inspired Word of God. The Roman Catholic church never made such a statement in the first place and over the centuries succeeded in corrupting even the text of the Bible as originally translated.

(2) Ichabod def. - the spirit has departed. (1 Samuel 4:19-22)

During the last national revival in the late 1960's and early 1970's, church leadership uniformly denied the ministry of the Holy Spirit and rejected its offer and inspiration of salvation to the unregenerate and to the nation. As a consequence, the United States of America IS ICHABOD in the eyes of heaven.

God shall curse, not bless America. The nation is under judgment at this very hour.

Barney2.0 · Jul 18, 2018

Choir Loft said:
Now here is a mystery - that there is no proof the State of Israel has anything to do with the Biblical kingdom of Israel.

Except that there's plenty of proof.....

Numerous proofs and documentation has been provided both in the Bible and posts I've entered here.

Here's a few more....

- The people are the same. Jews inhabit the modern state just as they did the ancient state.
- The traditions and ceremonies, such as pesach, are identical.
- Holy scripture is identical.
- They worship Adonai just as their forebears.
- They recite the shema as a statement of faith just as their fathers did.
- God's promise to restore Israel to the land has been fulfilled precisely.
- Divine miracles have accompanied the establishment and preservation of the State of Israel.
- Israelis speak and write the same language in the 21st century as in ancient times.

The issue here is not sufficiency of proofs, but the suppression of proof.

The same cannot be said of the church,
..as spiritual successor or replacement of ancient Israel in any form .....
mostly because the church denies the God of Israel,
denies the Bible is the inspired Word of God,
has corrupted the gospel itself as taught by Christ and His apostles
.........to the point it has become unrecognizable from the original.

The church has NO legitimate claim to represent anything except itself.

Here are some proofs of the sad state of affairs concerning church self-corruption;

- Founded by Jews in the first century, the gospel was kidnapped by the church and corrupted by its pagan ideologies. Thus the beliefs of the 21st century church has NOTHING to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

- Every church group speaks its national language. There are no common words among them. The church has nothing to do with its national neighbors, much less its historic roots in Judaism.

- The Bible states that God established Jesus Christ as the head of the church, yet Roman Emperor Constantine gave legal rights to the church to hold property, tax its members, establish the priesthood, and determine ideology including adopting the philosophy of pagan religions into Christianity. The church as established by the apostles of Christ have NOTHING to do with the gospel as described in the Bible.

- The Protestant Church is illegitimate by every measure known to civilization. It is a rebellious cult, which broke off from the legal church established by Constantine. It retains pagan beliefs and traditions of Catholicism while inaugurating its own heresies. The Protestant church has NOTHING to do with the gospel as described in the Bible.

- The church has constantly and continuously been the author of inhuman treatment and prejudice against the Jewish people in general and Israel in particular. From earliest records of gentile capture of the church in the third century to the present day refusal to recognize Jewish roots of the Christian religion, the right of Jews to live and the establishment of Israel by act of divine providence has been the rule. The gentile church has NOTHING to do with Biblical revelation and salvation.

- The church lies when it claims to love others. Anti-semitism has been the hallmark of Christian behavior, belief, and history. No other group, not even Muslims, have been responsible for shedding so much Jewish blood. The gentile church has NOTHING to do with respect of God, His Chosen People or the rule of law as established in the Ten Commandments. Murder, lies and thievery are the hallmark of Christian history with regard to Jews and Israel. The church has NOTHING to do with Biblical concepts of love and tolerance.

No proof that the modern State of Israel has anything to do with ancient Biblical Israel?

There are plenty of proofs if you want documentation.

There is also plenty of anti-semitic argument provided by the church, an illegitimate cult that claims to love God, to deny the divine purpose in Israel, to deny the truth of the Old Covenant and to even deny the right of the Jewish people a homeland and the right to live their lives in peace.

Show me proof that the church has anything at all to do with worship and respect of God AS GOD HAS ORDAINED IN THE WORDS OF THE OLD COVENANT. I suspect you will not be able to provide many at all. Many Christians even deny the right of the Old Covenant to be included in the full body of the Holy Bible. Post Modernist ideology has so fully corrupted the church that it no longer holds the Word of God sacrosanct. At least four main denominations have denied the Bible completely(*). As a consequence God has pronounced them Ichabod.

I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
- God speaking to Abraham concerning Abraham's progeny, the people of Israel
Genesis 12:3

Beware the anti-semitic attitude of Christians. God has made a promise to Israel and violation of that promise can get you in serious difficulty with Adonai.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*)
The Presbyterian church, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, the United Methodist Church and the Episcopal church have all made official statements by national church assemblies, conclaves and/or conventions that the Bible is not the inspired Word of God. The Roman Catholic church never made such a statement in the first place and over the centuries succeeded in corrupting even the text of the Bible as originally translated.

Actually Hebrew like Arabic has gone under revisions, the original Hebrew spoken by the prophets was significantly different to modern Hebrew. Israel has no more temple which equals very different rituals and practice as Jews believed the temple was everything. Judaism has also gone through many changes and developments throughout history that the original faith is unrecognizable, this is no secret.

With the new covenant of Christ all people, Jews and Gentile come into the covenant of Israel, the true Israel. There was no miracle from God involved in the creation of the modern State of Israel except because of the people who drew the map of the Middle East wanted it to be there. Anyone who denies Jesus and the true faith is disqualified from the New covenant and from Abraham himself, be he Jew or Gentile, so the bless those who curse you verse applies to Christians of all backgrounds not to Jews anymore.

The above you’ve stated about the Bible and Church is heresy, you seem to be talking about Catholics and Protestants. The Orthodox Church has no head except Jesus Christ himself, it recognizes the Jewish roots of the faith and practices them, worships the God of Israel, and accepts the Bible as his words that worked through inspired men of God who wrote the Bible. The Anti Semitic accusation doesn’t make sense, to be an Anti Semite you’d have to hate all Semitic races, Jews aren’t the only Semites, and I’m more Semitic then most Jews. So the accusation goes out the window. No Jew or Gentile is chosen by God unless he/she accepts the New Covenant brought by Christ to the world for Jews and Gentiles.

Choir Loft · Jul 18, 2018

Al Masihi said:
Actually Hebrew like Arabic has gone under revisions, the original Hebrew spoken by the prophets was significantly different to modern Hebrew. Israel has no more temple which equals very different rituals and practice as Jews believed the temple was everything. Judaism has also gone through many changes and developments throughout history that the original faith is unrecognizable, this is no secret.

With the new covenant of Christ all people, Jews and Gentile come into the covenant of Israel, the true Israel. There was no miracle from God involved in the creation of the modern State of Israel except because of the people who drew the map of the Middle East wanted it to be there. Anyone who denies Jesus and the true faith is disqualified from the New covenant and from Abraham himself, be he Jew or Gentile, so the bless those who curse you verse applies to Christians of all backgrounds not to Jews anymore.

The above you’ve stated about the Bible and Church is heresy, you seem to be talking about Catholics and Protestants. The Orthodox Church has no head except Jesus Christ himself, it recognizes the Jewish roots of the faith and practices them, worships the God of Israel, and accepts the Bible as his words that worked through inspired men of God who wrote the Bible. The Anti Semitic accusation doesn’t make sense, to be an Anti Semite you’d have to hate all Semitic races, Jews aren’t the only Semites, and I’m more Semitic then most Jews. So the accusation goes out the window. No Jew or Gentile is chosen by God unless he/she accepts the New Covenant brought by Christ to the world for Jews and Gentiles.

Origins of Judaism
Jewish theology remains basically intact today as it was in Jesus' time. Even the pharisees continue essentially unchanged in beliefs - in Orthodox Judaism also known as the Hasadim of the 21st century.

Hebrew hasn't changed that much. Ancient texts can still be read as though written by a modern hand. Traditions of Judaism haven't changed that much. Pesach, for example, is practiced today with little or no changes since ancient times. Other traditions and ceremonies are likewise similar.

Theological heresy
Replacement Theology is nationalistic at its core. The Bible teaches that JESUS CHRIST, not some nation - not any nation - is the ROOT. Israel is the natural and original member of that root and gentiles have been invited to join the root (Jesus). At no point does the Bible teach that in order to be saved one must become a citizen of the State of Israel (or the United States of America). This is a deliberate obfuscation and a doctrine of demons.

Crimes Against Humanity and Religious Misrepresentation
My statements about church history are all correct, including but not limited to massive militarist aggression, intellectual suppression of entire populations, genocide and self-justified righteousness. Read the history books. Please.

Anti-Semitism
The phrase is understood by everyone who hears it. Caliginous definitions do not remove the stain of hatred of Jews as national policy or personal preference.

Orthodox Church Head
I have no idea what you mean by "orthodox head of the church". I seriously doubt you do either.

The Patriarch of Constantinople Bartholomew I, is the proprietary head of the Orthodox Church. However, this leadership is mostly figurative as churches of the Orthodox division of Christianity are all autonomous in theory and practice.

My remarks regarding the church were primarily directed at the Latin division; that which is understood by western folk as the Roman Catholic Church and the multiple divisions of the Protestant movement. My remarks also apply to the Eastern or Orthodox church as well, minus the militarist component.

Bottom Line
In summation, I think you're not willing to swallow the truth as I've tried to share it. You need to educate yourself away from Christian propaganda and loyalty to a religious philosophy that has denied the power and hand of Almighty God at work in the world, the Bible as THE Word of God, and the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ.

This last is most important to individuals, but sadly has been corrupted by the church as well.

Church membership cards are not fire proof.

Only peace with God in the Name of Jesus Christ will save. The Old Covenant, especially the book of Leviticus, explains exactly how it works. Unfortunately many Biblically illiterate redneck Christians refuse the light of the educational process and prefer false gospels promulgated by the purveyors of snake oil tabloid Post Modernist philosophy. For this reason and many others Christianity has lost its true spiritual power as well as its legitimacy in the eyes of the world.

Not so long ago Christianity and Christians were respected. Today Christianity is a joke. Do you not see it? What changed and why? I'm trying to tell you if you will but pay attention. Your spiritual journey requires that you educate yourself. No one can live in intellectual delusion and spiritual darkness and be saved.

Seek Christ in the pages of the Holy Bible. If you look for Him in church you may not find Him there at all. On the other hand, I guarantee you'll find someone with one hand on their Bible and the other hand in your pocket.

Wake up and choose your own future.

Christ can be in it to guide you if you aren't too stubborn to be led. Unfortunately the stubborn attitude is one thing Christians seem to have adopted from the ancient Hebrews. It's alive and well in our churches. Lose it and learn something about God.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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