Replacement Theology

[Dave-W]

Here is a question for those who are pastors or have been schooled in Wesleyan theology:

What is the Wesleyan position on Replacement Theology? If you do not know what it is, a Google search will yield a plethora of sites, both for and against. It is the subject of the recent direct to dvd video "Let the Lion Roar;" where the writer/director discusses Calvin, Luther and earlier Catholic theologians but makes no mention of Wesley is made at all.

Unfortunately this is a subject I never got to discuss with my dad before he passed a few years ago.

 

[Maid Marie]

Here is a question for those who are pastors or have been schooled in Wesleyan theology:

What is the Wesleyan position on Replacement Theology? If you do not know what it is, a Google search will yield a plethora of sites, both for and against. It is the subject of the recent direct to dvd video "Let the Lion Roar;" where the writer/director discusses Calvin, Luther and earlier Catholic theologians but makes no mention of Wesley is made at all.

Unfortunately this is a subject I never got to discuss with my dad before he passed a few years ago.

I believe that we are in favor of it.

 

[circuitrider]

It is also called Supersessionism and it has some theological issues and it has been an excuse for anti-semitism.

I think there are ways to about the value of the Church in God's plan without taking away relationships that God already had and has with the Jewish people.

If you read the wikipedia article about supersessionism (I know not always the best source) it points out that United Methodists among others have been looking for different ways to talk about our covenant with God other than suggesting it puts someone else out in the cold.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I personally believe that the Church is the new Israel. But, I don't really find Replacement Theology or Supersessionism to be a key belief in Wesleyan theological circles. It is something of which I think you will find both kinds living side by side in the United Methodist Church.

 

[Dave-W]

I personally believe that the Church is the new Israel.

Yeah - that is pretty much RT in a nutshell.

But, I don't really find Replacement Theology or Supersessionism to be a key belief in Wesleyan theological circles. It is something of which I think you will find both kinds living side by side in the United Methodist Church.

Interesting. Do you know if that applies also to Nazarene, Free Methodist, Wesleyan church, et al?

 

[GraceSeeker]

Interesting. Do you know if that applies also to Nazarene, Free Methodist, Wesleyan church, et al?

Sorry, despite knowing dozens of Free Methodist and Wesleyan Church pastors from working side-by-side with them over the years I don't remember a single time this ever entered the conversation.

 

[Maid Marie]

Yeah - that is pretty much RT in a nutshell.



Interesting. Do you know if that applies also to Nazarene, Free Methodist, Wesleyan church, et al?

It applies to Nazarene as well.

 

[circuitrider]

I personally believe that the Church is the new Israel. But, I don't really find Replacement Theology or Supersessionism to be a key belief in Wesleyan theological circles. It is something of which I think you will find both kinds living side by side in the United Methodist Church.

I'd agree with that. It doesn't fit my theology. But I don't believe there is any official position from the Church on it.

 

[GraceSeeker]

It doesn't fit my theology.

APOSTATE!!!

 

[circuitrider]

APOSTATE!!!

LOL

 

[food4thought]

I'm not a pastor, but I attend a UM Church, and I am pretty strongly on the other side of this one. God has a future plan to bring His chosen people back into right relationship with Him through Christ, but it will not take place until God has completed His work among the Gentiles; but let me make it clear that the Jewish people shall be saved by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, not by some other means (as some opponents of this view have tried to say we believe). We think it will be a massive movement of God among the Jews during the end times. But I digress... the point is that I am quite firmly NOT a Supersessionist, yet my position is not an obstacle to fellowshipping at a UMC.

 

[circuitrider]

I'm not a pastor, but I attend a UM Church, and I am pretty strongly on the other side of this one. God has a future plan to bring His chosen people back into right relationship with Him through Christ, but it will not take place until God has completed His work among the Gentiles; but let me make it clear that the Jewish people shall be saved by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, not by some other means (as some opponents of this view have tried to say we believe). We think it will be a massive movement of God among the Jews during the end times. But I digress... the point is that I am quite firmly NOT a Supersessionist, yet my position is not an obstacle to fellowshipping at a UMC.

This sounds like garden variety Dispensationalism. The catch phrases are "completed his work among he gentiles" and a "movement of God among Jews during the end times."

Sorry but you can't find any real Biblical support for the idea that history is divided into dispensations. Nor is this accepted UMC doctrine.

 

[Dave-W]

Thanks everyone.

I do agree Circuit that Food4 sounds like mainstream dispy thought. Dispy of law - church age - age of a renewed Israel, etc.

I am not much of an adherent to dispy theology but Replacement Theology is not necessarily connected with that. (or the opposite of it either)

Do you think natural Israel is still the "chosen people?" or has that been taken from them and given to the church?

 

[Dave-W]

Here is an article on RT written by my wife's former employer - Dan Juster ThD.

The Tragic Error of Replacement Theology | Kehila

 

[food4thought]

This sounds like garden variety Dispensationalism. The catch phrases are "completed his work among he gentiles" and a "movement of God among Jews during the end times."

Sorry but you can't find any real Biblical support for the idea that history is divided into dispensations. Nor is this accepted UMC doctrine.

Yeah, I am loosely Dispensationalist in my eschatological views; overall, I am still trying to piece things together and really can't say I adhere to any coherent theological system yet. I understand that the UMC does not officially hold the views that I do on some things. My point was that it hasn't been an obstacle to fellowshipping at the UMC I attend, and that's why I posted. Sorry if I upset anyone.

 

[circuitrider]

Yeah, I am loosely Dispensationalist in my eschatological views; overall, I am still trying to piece things together and really can't say I adhere to any coherent theological system yet. I understand that the UMC does not officially hold the views that I do on some things. My point was that it hasn't been an obstacle to fellowshipping at the UMC I attend, and that's why I posted. Sorry if I upset anyone.

No upset here. I'm just always surprised how widely dispensationalism is held even in denominations that don't teach it.

 

[circuitrider]

Dave, my own view tends to lean to the understanding that in Christ it is God's intention that everyone be "chosen." That doesn't mean that the Jewish people aren't among the chosen. It just means that no one is exclusively "chosen." I believe it is God's desire that none perish but that all people experience redemption.

 

[Dave-W]

Hey Food4Thought - I just noticed your location. I have been to Watervliet many times. I grew up in Buchanan.

 

[food4thought]

Hey Food4Thought - I just noticed your location. I have been to Watervliet many times. I grew up in Buchanan.

Hi Dave! Good to see another SW Michigander hanging around here.