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Interesting, but not quite understanding. Can you give an example please?I often hear the term "replacement theology" thrown about whenever dispensationalists (and dispensational messianics) want to demonize covenant theology.
But the term simply doesn't make sense.
"Replacement theology" assumes, it is said, that the church replaced Israel. Show me anyone who actually believes this. Covenant theologians don't because covenant theologians see continuity between the people of God. To assume that covenant theologians think that the church placed Israel, you have to assume a radical discontinuity between Israel and the church- that is, you assign dispensationalist assumptions upon a group of Christians who make no assumptions.
But covenant theologians don't make that assumption.
Covenant theologians see one people of God throughout all of human history. The church, in covenant theology, cannot replace Israel because there is no difference between believers in ethnic Israel and believers in the church.
Interesting theory and partially true.free online book by Jewish Christian
Exploding the Israel Deception
by Steve Wohlberg
http://www.truthworthfinding.org/articles/etid/etid_main.htm
take a special look at the chapter THE SHOCKING PRINCIPLE OF TWO ISRAELS
I often hear the term "replacement theology" thrown about whenever dispensationalists (and dispensational messianics) want to demonize covenant theology.
But the term simply doesn't make sense.
"Replacement theology" assumes, it is said, that the church replaced Israel. Show me anyone who actually believes this.
Covenant theologians don't because covenant theologians see continuity between the people of God. To assume that covenant theologians think that the church placed Israel, you have to assume a radical discontinuity between Israel and the church- that is, you assign dispensationalist assumptions upon a group of Christians who make no assumptions.
But covenant theologians don't make that assumption.
Covenant theologians see one people of God throughout all of human history. The church, in covenant theology, cannot replace Israel because there is no difference between believers in ethnic Israel and believers in the church.
The problem with what you're saying is that you say Gentiles become Israel, and the Bible says no such thing. Also, Israel wasn't the church.Yes, this is the continuation view - that the Church (people of God) continues Israel (people of God). Its "continuation theology" and not "replacement theology."
That's correct! There are believing GENTILES in the church. They DO NOT become Israel as CTers maintain.What often gets lost in the discussion is the basic definitions: the church consists of both believing Jews and believing Gentiles.
You leave one important word out of this statement: ONLY. "Israel consists of believing and unbelieving Jews... ONLY."Israel consists of believing Jews and unbelieving Jews.
The overlap is always two groups, Jew and Gentile, merging together to make the church. The overlap is NEVER Gentiles becoming Jews as taught by CTers.There is overlap between Israel and the Church are the believing Jews, such as Peter, Paul, John, etc.
A "co-heir" (fellowheir) receives what they've been allotted ONLY, not all promises given to Jews. Let's don't leave that important fact out.So there is continuity and discontinuity. The believing Jews constitute a continuity with the remnant of Israel. The believing Gentiles, now co-heirs with believing Jews, constitute a discontinuity between the OT separation of Israel and Gentiles.
I believe a couple of reasons that the "replacement theology" moniker may be appropriate is because your theory is replacing what Israel is according to the Bible (Jewish only), with a new Israel that (1) turns Gentiles into Jews, and (2) "replaces" Gentiles by eliminating us, which is a form of genocide.So we get some basic variations depending on what one emphasizes:
1) continuation,
2) expansion - where the OT promises were originally to Jews but now expanded to include Gentiles,
3) parenthesis, where the "prophetic clock" has stopped regarding God's dealing with Israel as a nation, so that the gospel might be preached,
4) replacement, where the church as a new entity has replaced Israel as the old entity for inheriting God's promises.
The problem with what you're saying is that you say Gentiles become Israel, and the Bible says no such thing. Also, Israel wasn't the church.
Gentiles do become the chosen people which is what was said of Israel, they are a chosen people.
Is not this same description given of the nation Israel and the church in the old and new testament.? A chosen people.
Oh no, I will definitely respond. It's just a lot of scripture, and I'd like to be thorough. But from what I've seen so far, none address the point of Gentiles being a part of Israel. But this isn't the proper thread for that, so I digress.ddub85,
I see that you chose not to read all the scripture on Spiritual Israel that I posted.
If that's the case, then where is the scripture which says so? I see absolutely NOTHING which says "gentiles belong in the true Israel", as you state. And the one Spirit isn't Israel, people make up Israel. Gentiles are chosen by God to be a part of the church, but not chosen to be Israel. Israel is a part of the church, but the church isn't Israel as you seem to be stating.But as the thread begins, the church is not a replacement for Israel but the continuity of Israel in that all believers from Israel to the gentiles belong in the true Israel, The one of the Spirit. The door swings both ways. Gentiles become part of God's chosen people who become part of the church as God chosen people.
Here we have a case of you stating what you believe without biblical proof, and since I don't believe what you haven't proven, you say I'm set in my ways.You have only confirmed what I said that you have a belief set in your heart and no matter the truth before you, you will not relent to your harm.
I apologize if you're not saying Gentiles become Israel. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement.ddub85,
Your response is just too confusing. I never said "Gentiles become Israel." So from the start you made a false assumption despite what I clearly said.
Chosen to be the church, or chosen to be Israel? I see the former in scripture, but nowhere is the latter written. You're saying something the Bible doesn't say.Gentiles do become the chosen people which is what was said of Israel, they are a chosen people.
Is not this same description given of the nation Israel and the church in the old and new testament.? A chosen people.
LDG,Hismessenger,
Gentiles who believe Jesus as their Savior are a chosen people. But those Gentiles who do not believe are not described in Scripture as a chosen people. Otherwise, if all Gentiles are a chosen people, and Israel (all Jews) are a chosen people, then "chosen people" just means "all of humanity" - and then the term "chosen people" becomes essentially meaningless.
But there is also a distinction between Israel as a chosen people and the Church as a chosen people. God choose Israel as a nation, and so not every Jew has been saved. On the other hand God has chosen individuals - believers - who together make up the body of the church. All "living stones" in the Church are saved, in contrast to Israel, where not every Jew was (or is) saved.
Romans 9:21-27 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Called (believing) Jews as "vessels of mercy" are distinguished from those who are "vessels of wrath."
25 As He says also in Hosea, "I will call those who were not My people, 'My people,' And her who was not beloved, 'beloved.'" 26 "And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, 'you are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."
Paul applies Hosea's quote to believing Gentiles, not all Gentiles. Believing Gentiles are "vessels of mercy" just like believing Jews.
27 ¶ And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved;
Paul distinguishes the remnant of Israel from all Israel - only the remnant will be saved, not all of Israel.
LDG
I apologize if you're not saying Gentiles become Israel. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement.
LDG Quote: "Yes, this is the continuation view - that the Church (people of God) continues Israel (people of God)."
If the church you speak of includes Gentiles, then you're saying that these Gentiles become Israel. Is that true? If so, then you're saying that Gentiles, somewhere along the line, become Israel.
LDG,
Do you believe that those Gentiles who are saved, who are God's people, are Israel?
I often hear the term "replacement theology" thrown about whenever dispensationalists (and dispensational messianics) want to demonize covenant theology.
But the term simply doesn't make sense.
"Replacement theology" assumes, it is said, that the church replaced Israel. Show me anyone who actually believes this. Covenant theologians don't because covenant theologians see continuity between the people of God. To assume that covenant theologians think that the church placed Israel, you have to assume a radical discontinuity between Israel and the church- that is, you assign dispensationalist assumptions upon a group of Christians who make no assumptions.
But covenant theologians don't make that assumption.
Covenant theologians see one people of God throughout all of human history. The church, in covenant theology, cannot replace Israel because there is no difference between believers in ethnic Israel and believers in the church.
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