Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Clare73 · Feb 28, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
For some, like me, consider the Sabbath as ceremonial. Additionally,
there are many laws within the 613 that are moral. Thanks for sharing. Be blessed.

Given from God?

Clare73 · Feb 28, 2021

Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 13: 5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

SkyWriting said:
All are disqualified.
Romans 3:10
As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

All are disqualified.

You think all Christians are disqualified from being in the faith?

Religiot · Feb 28, 2021

disciple1 said:
Hebrews chapter 10 verse 1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Of course, the old covenant was just that--those laws contained in ordinances have been nailed to the cross; now, the new covenant takes us to perfection in Christ, who empowers us to keep God's laws, rightly--God's laws are not the old covenant, but the old covenant contained God's laws; the old covenant is now passed away, but God's laws cannot pass away, they remain, unchanged, transferred to Christ, Who now writes them in our hearts.

disciple1 said:
Romans chapter 3 verse 20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Indeed, for to reject Christ renders any attempt at righteousness vain.

disciple1 said:
The only thing I can see to justify is Love and Mercy.

Of course, for without love no one can keep the law, and mercy is indeed one of the weightier parts of the law.

Clare73 · Feb 28, 2021

Lukaris said:
I believe removing God’s laws involves teaching a false gospel. A major example, I believe, is
claiming to preach love of God & neighbor but removing the 10 commandments. There is a moral commitment to love of God & neighbor. Removing the 10 commandments allows for a false gospel.

What do you think Jesus meant in Mt 22:37-40?

Soyeong · Feb 28, 2021

Clare73 said:
Major Premise: The Bible uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's laws,

Minor Premise: which is because they are God's instructions for how to testify about His nature, and God's nature is eternal,

Conclusion: THEREFORE: all of His laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), not just ten of them.

The minor premise is an assumption, therefore the conclusion rests on an assumption.

To describe a law as being righteous is to say that it instructs us to do what is righteous, so I don't see how you can question that premise as resting on an assumption. It would be contradictory to describe a law as being righteous if it didn't instruct us how to do what is righteous. God's righteous laws teach us about His righteousness, so when we obey them we are testifying about His righteousness. For example when we help the widow, the poor, and the orphan in obedience to God's law, we are testifying that we follow a God who cares for the widow, the poor, and the orphan, so we teaching others about the nature of who God is. Furthermore, in Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal, which does not rest on any premise.

Clare73 · Feb 28, 2021

Clare73 said:
We have NT teaching which establishes what laws are in force, not for justification/salvation, but for sanctification/sonship in the New Covenant:
Heb 7:12 - where the law is changed, because the priesthood is changed from the order of Aaron (Levites) to the order of Melchizedek, and
is not in force,
Heb 8:13 - where the Mosaic covenant is made obsolete, and is not in force,

Mt 22:37; Ro 13:8-10 - where the Ten Commandments are subsumed in Jesus' two commandments, and are in force, but not for justification/salvation,
Eph 2:15 - where the ceremonial laws are abolished--sacrifices, all defilement and cleansing laws, holy years, feasts, corban, etc.--and
are not in force,
1Jn 2:3-5, 3:22, 24, 5:3; 2Jn 6; Jn 14:15, 21, 23, 15:10 - where we are to obey Jesus' commands,
1Jn 1:8, 10, 2:1, 4, - where sin is presented as not obeying Jesus' commands.

imge said:
Gods law is not “ceremonial” its the eternal moral laws.

The sacrificial, defilement, cleansing laws, holy years, feasts, corban, etc. of Leviticus are the "ceremonial" laws, which are not moral laws.
Disobedience of ceremonial law was not moral sin, it was ceremonial defilement (sin), which could be cleansed with ceremonial cleansings.
Moral sin cannot be cleansed with ceremonial cleansings, it is cleansed only with faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

You keep referring to “laws” but have yet to provide scripture to any specific laws for the second covenant.

The second covenant is the bilateral Mosaic Covenant, which covenant is conditioned on the Ten Commandments (Ex 19:5-8).

God 10 commandments are His moral laws that He said are everlasting. Exodus 20 3-17, Psalms 111:7,8
The first four commandments are how we are to love and obey God and the last 6 how we are to love each each.

Agreed.

Unless you think its okay to lie, steal, cheat, murder, vain His name,
break His Holy day, or any one of the other 10 very applicable for today laws that He again told us are eternal.

Do you have me confused with someone else?

I've never said that Christians are free to violate the Decalogue (Ten Commandments).

I will continue believing what God told us. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Maybe this summary will help explain:

The Ten Commandments are the basis of the Mosaic Covenant.
The Levitical (ceremonial) laws of the Old Covenant order are separate from the Ten Commandments,
and have been changed (Heb 7:12), made obsolete (Heb 8:13), and abolished (Eph 2:15).
The Ten Commandments remain and are subsumed into Jesus' two commands of Mt 22:37-40 and Ro 13:8-10.

To fulfill Jesus' two commands will necessarily fulfill all the moral laws regarding your neighbor.

The unilateral New Covenant (third), like the unilateral Abrahamic Covenant (first), is not based on law,
as was the temporary bilateral Mosaic Covenant (second) which was temporarily added (Gal 4:29; Heb 8:13) to the Abrahamic Covenant (first),
not replacing the Abrahamic covenant of grace/faith, which was not replaced until the New Covenant (third).

Abrahamic Covenant--->Mosaic Covenant temporarily added--->New Covenant

fhansen · Feb 28, 2021

The law is right: holy, good, and spiritual as Rom 7 tells us. But we're not spiritual, at least until we're united with God in a relationship established by faith. And that union, itself, is the basis of man's justice or righteousness, and something that Adam effectively spurned by his act of disobedience. Anyway, the law reflects God's will for man, based on love, a primary aspect of His own nature. And the New Testament shows that will to be expressed most surely in the "moral law", in the ten commandments, which it continues to support even while fully aware of the fact that the law, itself, does not have the power to justify us, to make us righteous. Only God can do that.

But hearing the law is still a good thing, because it reminds and keeps us aware of what justice or righteousness "looks like", since we're not yet perfected in all things in this life; we often fail to love IOW. So the ancient churches continued to uphold and teach the ten commandments, along with the means to authentically fulfill them, via communion with God who places His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts, by causing us to love as He does to put it another way, as we're willing to allow that work to be done. Because love, even as a gift from God, always involves the element of choice, or else it's not love.

Maria Billingsley · Feb 28, 2021

Clare73 said:
Given from God?

It is in the Torah, thus from God through Moses.

pescador · Feb 28, 2021

The OP concerns removing the laws of god[sic]

First of all, the only way that God's laws can be removed is if God removes them. They are HIS laws. The Mosaic covenant is a suzerainty; the subjects have no say in the terms of the agreement. It's a one-way "protection street".

So far, God has not removed His laws. They are still in effect for all those who are not in Christ. In their ignorance they haven't understood that the penalty for violating those laws has already been paid by Christ's shed blood. How tragic is that!!

Lukaris · Feb 28, 2021

Clare73 said:
What do you think Jesus meant in Mt 22:37-40?

I believe according to an early testimony of the ancient Christians which clearly link the moral commandments ( like the 10 commandments, Matthew 19:16-19, Romans 13:8-10 etc.). An early church manual from about 100 AD testifies to it. It is titled the Didache:

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

Religiot · Feb 28, 2021

GraceBro said:
There was no sin in the world when God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They had the Holy Spirit indwelling them and they still disobeyed God. They were naked, lol! Yet, we think that in a fallen world, in sinful bodies, and with the Holy Spirit, we are going to obey 613 laws? Good luck. Besides, the Christian life is more than just getting our flesh in order. It is about knowing our God. The law can't do that nor will it result in knowing our God. If you think you can be fully obedient to the law, go ahead. I choose to rest in God's work on my behalf and get to know Him through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

God's work is that we believe His Son:

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." --John 6:29

Believing His Son is followed by obedience to Him:

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." --John 3:36

Obedience to Him is followed by eternal life:

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." --Hebrews 5:9

Christ did not magnify God's laws to bury us under them, but to place them inside of us, and to empower us to truly keep them--this is only possible by His grace.

He commands the keeping of His laws: under the old covenant, it was through death that they were to be kept, but under the new covenant, it is through grace that they are indeed kept, for we no longer have to be killed for failing in mortal sins, nor do we have to kill others for the same, nor do we have to kill animals for none mortal sins, nor buy them, nor borrow them for the same--the liberty in Christ is true, to keep God's laws, not to break them.

Just listen to the Lord, and no one else, unless they are teaching what the Lord told them to tell:

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions." --Matthew 19:16-22

Let us never have to hear the following question from the Master of the universe:

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" --Luke 6:46

By His grace we can overcome anything, especially disobedience:

"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." --2 Corinthians 12:9-10

By Him we can do all things, especially obedience to Him:

"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." --Philippians 4:13

Let's beware not to turn the grace of God into a license to sin:

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." --Jude 1:4

For sin, after all, is the transgression of the law:

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." --1 John 3:4

SabbathBlessings · Feb 28, 2021

Nathan@work · Feb 28, 2021

Religiot said:
All men do, indeed, know good from evil; otherwise, the scriptures are false.

Think about it a little more.

When Adam ate, he then knew evil. Not good from evil.

Had Adam and Eve been allowed to stay in the garden, and continue to eat, then they would have grown in the knowledge of good and evil - becoming wiser.

However, since they were removed, he no longer had access to it. Just like he no longer had access to the tree of life - and because of that, died

The damage was done though, and now the lie continues to remain - mankind thinking they can be like God knowing good from evil, wise in their own eyes.

Satan is a liar and there is no truth in him.

SkyWriting · Feb 28, 2021

Clare73 said:
You think all Christians are disqualified from being in the faith?

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

SkyWriting · Feb 28, 2021

Clare73 said:
Whoa-a-a!!! Back up there, Podna'.

Paul received his revelation from Jesus personally, in the third heaven (2Co 12:1-5), some of which he was not even allowed to tell!

You have it backwards, he knew much more than the apostles.
Where do you find justification, the one olive tree, God's plan for Jesus Christ in the church, etc. in writings other than Paul?

It's in my sig file near the bottom.

SkyWriting · Feb 28, 2021

Clare73 said:
Sounds like sin is disobeying the Ten Commandments, because there are no ceremonial laws, they have been abolished on the cross (Eph 2:15).

Sin is not in any writings. It's what is in my heart and nobody else is aware.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

SkyWriting · Feb 28, 2021

imge said:
‘I never knew you;
depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness!’

The last two words have no meaning outside of the context of the words preceding it which define lawlessness.

BobRyan · Feb 28, 2021

The Liturgist said:
The paradox is the legalism that Luther accused the Romans of having, which prompted him to advocate several of the Solas, most notably sola scriptura and sola fide, is exhibited when verses in Galatians which appear to contradict certain aspects of Adventist doctrine are ignored yet the importance of sola scriptura is strongly emphasized, by this vocal anti-non-SDA minority.

And I wouldn’t even care, except so many threads are being posted on certain Theology forums on this site when we have other more relevant matters to discuss, like religious freedom and worship practices in the context of the global pandemic, or the impending schism in the United Methodist Church, or the recent and in my opinion glorious victory of the Anglican Diocese of Fort Worth against its former denomination regarding real estate, which could end mainline denominational denial of real estate to departing conservative parishes where there is no longer a shared bond of faith but in some cases a difference vaster than that between traditional Protestantism and traditional Roman Catholicism,

I found this post very interesting and have just a couple of things to add as food for thought.

1. In the list of the "more pressing issues" that we find in your post (that you say are more pressing than the Sabbath commandment issue as per the POV in the post) - I notice that almost 100% of those issue become center stage in importance - only at the point that the civil government jumps in with laws affecting the Christian's ability to practice or express our faith without hinderance. And I would add abortion topics (the value of human life) and the definition of gender and definition of marriage to your list of high urgency topics.

So it is in keeping with that principle - that the "prophetic prediction" made by the SDA world-view warns of a future civil-government action that will in like manner put the spotlight on the Sabbath doctrine via its civil laws. The result will be that just as we have seen with other issues listed above -- injecting civil law into the Sabbath question/debate will blow it up in terms of urgency and importance.

Some will argue that the future will not include such a predicted civil law challenging religious liberty in areas associated with the Bible Sabbath. Time will tell.

2. As you have noted - a great many Christian denominations affirm all Ten of the Ten commandments as being included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant. Taking that POV for a moment - then it means one cannot use Gal 3 to obliterate the command to "not take God's name in vain" or the Sabbath commandment. In such a context it is not just the SDA position that concludes that Gal 3 is not an attack on the Ten Commandments in the life of the born-again Christian - but in fact almost all mainline Christianity - historically agrees with that point.

BobRyan · Feb 28, 2021

Clare73 said:
Sounds like sin is disobeying the Ten Commandments, because there are no ceremonial laws, they have been abolished on the cross (Eph 2:15).

Indeed and Paul affirms the Ten when he points out that the Ten are still valid being that Law where "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment. Eph 6:1-2

Clare73 · Feb 28, 2021

imge said:
Maybe you could provide scripture where God or Jesus said His seventh day Sabbath is no longer Holy and we are now to worship Him on the first day. Having a meeting is not the same as God commanding us to keep Holy any other day than what He told us when He wrote and spoke His commandments. Exodus 20:8-11 Genesis 2:3 The scripture you provided did not say the first day is Holy or Gods new Sabbath day. God said His Sabbath is a perpetual covenant and He also said He is unchanging. I am going to believe God. Which is why on the New Earth the Sabbath remains. Isaiah 66:23 You can believe as you wish of course God did give us free will. God bless

Mk 2:27; Gal 4:8-11; Col 2:16--where the Sabbath was a shadow of the things to come, but the reality (rest from our own works to save ourselves) is found in Christ, not in a day of the week (Heb 4:1-11, v.9)

The Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ (Heb 4:8-11).

The NT command is not to forsake meeting together (Heb 11:25).

Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

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