Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Nathan@work · Mar 23, 2021

Freth said:
imge hit on something important here that I wanted to point out.

"This only hurts our Savior and He died in vain."

One of the things that brought me back to Christianity was the understanding of how what we perceive sin in simple terms, but how it condemns from multiple angles.

Taking the Lord's name is forsaking the Lord, whether it be in speech or in action. If you profess to be a Christian and disobey God, you are indeed taking the Lord's name in vain.

If you are holding on to an idol in your life and it's taking up all of your time that you know you should be dedicating to your relationship with Jesus, you are worshiping false Gods, practicing idolatry, taking the Lord's name in vain, coveting your idol, stealing time from the Lord and most likely breaking the holy Sabbath of the Lord your God.

Sin is not one-dimensional. God designed the Ten Commandments in such a way that you can't break one and not be guilty of others at the same time. This shows the severity of disobedience to the law of God and why we're called to righteousness.

God wants a righteous people who are ready for heaven. Heaven is not a place of disobedience. What makes any Christian think they are going to enter the kingdom of heaven in a state of wretched sinfulness or lukewarmness?

God's law is the standard by which we are judged—and we are judged.

"I'm covered by grace."

"Jesus is my rest."

"The 9 are still binding, just not the Sabbath."

"Sunday is the Lord's day, because the resurrection of Jesus makes it double-holy."

"The law was the old covenant. We are in the new covenant."

"The law is love God, love others, which replaces the Ten Commandments."

These statements fly in the face of the repeated calls for repentance in the new testament and the holiness and righteousness we're called to—that can only be achieved through obedience to God through His commandments.

If you own a car and you drive, do you break speed limit laws? If so, what is the reasoning for your breaking of the speed limit? "I do what I want.", "I can go 10 miles over the speed limit and won't get pulled over.", "I'll never get caught if I'm careful." Even the most careful speeder gets pulled over at some point and has to pay the piper, or worse, causes an accident that harms others.

These things we tell ourselves, so that we can do what we want, are fallacies of the sinful, selfish mind.

[Rom 7:1-6 ESV] Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.

Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

You can be driving down the road, obeying the law of the speed limit, and still be pulled over. If you are driving down the wrong side of the road, no matter if you are obeying all the other laws, you are still in violation of one.

We have changed countries. We no longer drive on the side of the road we once were driving, we are now on the other side of the road.

If you are still driving down the side of the road according to the written code you are doing so unlawfully - you are staying in captivity willfully.

[Rom 8:1-4 ESV] There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.

By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Leaf473 · Mar 23, 2021

Nathan@work said:
[Rom 7:1-6 ESV] Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.

Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

You can be driving down the road, obeying the law of the speed limit, and still be pulled over. If you are driving down the wrong side of the road, no matter if you are obeying all the other laws, you are still in violation of one.

We have changed countries. We no longer drive on the side of the road we once were driving, we are now on the other side of the road.

If you are still driving down the side of the road according to the written code you are doing so unlawfully - you are staying in captivity willfully.

[Rom 8:1-4 ESV] There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.

By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Wow that's a great analogy!

Driving on a different side of the road does not mean drive unsafely ("sin all you want").

SabbathBlessings · Mar 23, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Wow that's a great analogy!

Driving on a different side of the road does not mean drive unsafely ("sin all you want").

There is only one path to external life and it is straight and narrow according to scripture.

Leaf473 · Mar 23, 2021

imge said:
There is only one path to external life and it is straight and narrow according to scripture.

Absolutely! And, imo, that's straight and narrow sometimes involves marrying your dead husband's brother, and sometimes not.

But I'm interested in hearing your take on that.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 23, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Sorry, I'm not following why you are bringing in the levitical priesthood.

Are you saying that since the levitical priesthood has been replaced, God's laws are "no longer needed"?

I thought your reasoning was that not a single part of the law or the prophets would pass away until heaven and Earth passed away?

Did I misunderstand what you were saying?

I have never said not all law is applicable for today and you even quoted me on that, so you are looking at our conversations as a way to see if you can mess me up instead of a sincere Christian talking to another one in a sincere conversation. I'm not sure our conversations will be fruitful under this pretense. But I will respond to this last question from you.

The Levitical Priesthood was a part of the shadow laws fulfilled in Christ in the new covenant. Jesus is now our great high Priest ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises.

Some of the ceremonial laws "ordinances" are no longer binding when Jesus died. This includes blood sacrifices, feasts and other ceremonial laws that helped the Israelites during the wilderness.

All the old covenant "shadow laws" and the new covenant can be shown in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-23.

Leaf473 · Mar 23, 2021

imge said:
I have never said not all law is applicable for today and you even quoted me on that, so you are looking at our conversations as a way to see if you can mess me up instead of a sincere Christian talking to another one in a sincere conversation. I'm not sure our conversations will be fruitful under this pretense. But I will respond to this last question from you.

The Levitical Priesthood was a part of the shadow laws fulfilled in Christ in the new covenant. Jesus is now our great high Priest ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises.

Some of the ceremonial laws "ordinances" are no longer binding when Jesus died. This includes blood sacrifices, feasts and other ceremonial laws that helped the Israelites during the wilderness.

All the old covenant "shadow laws" and the new covenant can be shown in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-23.

No, I'm not looking for a way to mess you up. I think you are holding multiple ideas in your mind that cannot all be true at the same time. I'm just looking for a way to show you that.

It is your view, I believe, that no part of the law or the prophets will pass away until heaven and Earth pass away.

Is this correct?

SabbathBlessings · Mar 23, 2021

Freth said:
imge hit on something important here that I wanted to point out.

"This only hurts our Savior and He died in vain."

One of the things that brought me back to Christianity was the understanding of how what we perceive sin in simple terms, but how it condemns from multiple angles.

Taking the Lord's name in vain is forsaking the Lord, whether it be in speech or in action. If you profess to be a Christian and disobey God, you are indeed taking the Lord's name in vain.

If you are holding on to an idol in your life and it's taking up all of your time that you know you should be dedicating to your relationship with Jesus, you are worshiping false Gods, practicing idolatry, taking the Lord's name in vain, coveting your idol, stealing time from the Lord and most likely breaking the holy Sabbath of the Lord your God.

Sin is not one-dimensional. God designed the Ten Commandments in such a way that you can't break one and not be guilty of others at the same time. This shows the severity of disobedience to the law of God and why we're called to righteousness.

God wants a righteous people who are ready for heaven. Heaven is not a place of disobedience. What makes any Christian think they are going to enter the kingdom of heaven in a state of wretched sinfulness or lukewarmness?

God's law is the standard by which we are judged—and we are judged.

"I'm covered by grace."

"Jesus is my rest."

"The 9 are still binding, just not the Sabbath."

"Sunday is the Lord's day, because the resurrection of Jesus makes it double-holy."

"The law was the old covenant. We are in the new covenant."

"The law is love God, love others, which replaces the Ten Commandments."

These statements fly in the face of the repeated calls for repentance in the new testament and the holiness and righteousness we're called to—that can only be achieved through obedience to God through His commandments.

If you own a car and you drive, do you break speed limit laws? If so, what is the reasoning for your breaking of the speed limit? "I do what I want.", "I can go 10 miles over the speed limit and won't get pulled over.", "I'll never get caught if I'm careful." Even the most careful speeder gets pulled over at some point and has to pay the piper, or worse, causes an accident that harms others.

These things we tell ourselves, so that we can do what we want, are fallacies of the sinful, selfish mind.

This is perfectly stated Freth!

Another analogy my pastor uses, when you are speeding and pulled over, if the police officer decides to let you go and you receive "grace" that does not mean the laws do not apply and if you were to speed off after receiving "grace" chances are you would no longer be under grace and would instead receive a ticket.

Scriptures clearly tells us God's commandments are eternal. The excuses only hurts the individuals trying to find any reason not to obey God's perfect law, that will continue forever and ever. One cannot out smart God, He is all knowing.

“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail” (Luke 16:17).
“My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34).
“All His precepts [commandments] are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8).

God bless!

Freth · Mar 23, 2021

Leaf473 said:
No, I am not saying that Jesus came to destroy the law. He came to fulfill it.

Do you practice levirate marriage and encourage others to do so?

Side note: Not that it matters, but I'm not married and never have been.

Let's define Levirate marriage first.

Wikipedia: Levirate marriage is a type of marriage in which the brother of a deceased man is obliged to marry his brother's widow. Levirate marriage has been practiced by societies with a strong clan structure in which exogamous marriage (i.e. marriage outside the clan) was forbidden.

This pertained to families of brothers with wives who lived together in one household.

The Wikipedia definition missed one important point. The stipulation is if there is no child from the deceased brother. The purpose, then, would be two-fold. Protect the widow's livelihood and carry forth the Levite family by bearing a child with the widow.

Deuteronomy 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

As to Levites, they were set apart from Israel as a royal priesthood, which would explain why God would want to carry forward the Levite people through close-knit families and ensuring child bearing as much as possible through Levirate marriage.

Deuteronomy 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and his inheritance.

The Levite priesthood went away with the sacrificial system.

Let's look at 1 Peter.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.

Does Peter mean we are also like the Levites and beholden to their laws? No. This is something completely different than the Levite priesthood. Hebrews 7 explains:

Hebrews 7:11-15 Amplified

11 Now if perfection [a perfect fellowship between God and the worshiper] had been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people were given the Law) what further need was there for another and different kind of priest to arise, one in the manner of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed to the order of Aaron?

12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is of necessity a change of the law [concerning the priesthood] as well.

13 For the One of whom these things are said belonged [not to the priestly line of Levi but] to another tribe, from which no one has officiated or served at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord descended from [the tribe of] Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe.

15 And this becomes even more evident if another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek,

16 who has become a priest, not on the basis of a physical and legal requirement in the Law [concerning his ancestry as a descendant of Levi], but on the basis of the power of an indestructible and endless life.

Leaf473 · Mar 23, 2021

Freth said:
Side note: No that it matters, but I'm not married and never have been.

Let's define Levirate marriage first.

Wikipedia: Levirate marriage is a type of marriage in which the brother of a deceased man is obliged to marry his brother's widow. Levirate marriage has been practiced by societies with a strong clan structure in which exogamous marriage (i.e. marriage outside the clan) was forbidden.

This pertained to families of brothers with wives who live together in one household.

The Wikipedia definition missed one important point. The stipulation is if there is no child from the deceased brother. The purpose, then, would be two-fold. Protect the widow's livelihood and carry forth the Levite family by bearing a child with the widow.

Deuteronomy 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

As to Levites, they were set apart from Israel as a royal priesthood, which would explain why God would want to carry forward the Levite people through close-knit families and ensuring child bearing as much as possible through Levirate marriage.

Deuteronomy 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and his inheritance.

The Levite priesthood went away with the sacrificial system.

Let's look at 1 Peter.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.

Does Peter mean we are also like the Levites and beholden to their laws? No. This is something completely different than the Levite priesthood. Hebrews 7 explains:

Hebrews 7:11-15 Amplified

11 Now if perfection [a perfect fellowship between God and the worshiper] had been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people were given the Law) what further need was there for another and different kind of priest to arise, one in the manner of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed to the order of Aaron?

12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is of necessity a change of the law [concerning the priesthood] as well.

13 For the One of whom these things are said belonged [not to the priestly line of Levi but] to another tribe, from which no one has officiated or served at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord descended from [the tribe of] Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe.

15 And this becomes even more evident if another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek,

16 who has become a priest, not on the basis of a physical and legal requirement in the Law [concerning his ancestry as a descendant of Levi], but on the basis of the power of an indestructible and endless life.

A side note, you're probably aware that the word
levirate is not based on the word
Levi.

It's based on the Latin word for brother-in-law.

Do we agree there?

Nathan@work · Mar 23, 2021

imge said:
This is perfectly stated Freth!

Another analogy my pastor uses, when you are speeding and pulled over, if the police officer decides to let you go and you receive "grace" that does not mean the laws do not apply and if you were to speed off after receiving "grace" chances are you would no longer be under grace and would instead receive a ticket.

Scriptures clearly tells us God's commandments are eternal. The excuses only hurts the individuals trying to find any reason not to obey God's perfect law, that will continue forever and ever. One cannot out smart God, He is all knowing.

“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail” (Luke 16:17).
“My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34).
“All His precepts [commandments] are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8).

God bless!

God's grace is not like that. That is really a horrible way to view it.

God's grace does not 'let us off'. God's grace is a covering - irrevocable by Him.

God's grace is not forgiveness of sin, grace takes the place of sin.

God's grace leads us away from sin, not only comes to us when we do sin.

We can obey God's law when we are under grace - without grace, outside of it, we break God's law.

If you do not stand in grace, no matter how perfect you think you keep God's laws, you are a slave to sin.

Freth · Mar 23, 2021

Leaf473 said:
A side note, you're probably aware that the word
levirate is not based on the word
Levi.

It's based on the Latin word for brother-in-law.

Do we agree there?

Regardless of the origin of the word, it refers to the Levite practice.

Google

levirate: a custom of the ancient Hebrews and other peoples by which a man may be obliged to marry his brother's widow.

Are we going to ignore the source of the practice and the actual truth because—Latin?

You asked, I answered. I'll leave it at that. God bless!

pescador · Mar 23, 2021

imge said:
I never said the law was our Savior. Our Savior made the law which is based on His character. If you go back to the very first post on this thread you will see all the scripture that tells us the law is made out of the essence of who God is. When you take away God's moral laws, what else are you taking away?

That's absurd to think we have been released from the law because of the sacrifice of our Savior. We are not free to sin. Jesus died to save us from our sins and salvation is a free gift to those who repent and turn away from sin, not keep sinning. When you are truly sorry for your sins, you will not keep sinning. This only hurts our Savior and He died in vain. Obedience to God is how we show Him our love according to Jesus.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

God bless

I really get frustrated with convoluted arguments. You wrote, "That's absurd to think we have been released from the law because of the sacrifice of our Savior." If I may borrow your scissors I can remove this verse from my Bible: "But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code." Romans 7:6

Should I believe you or Paul?

Leaf473 · Mar 23, 2021

Freth said:
Regardless of the origin of the word, it refers to the Levite practice.

Google

levirate: a custom of the ancient Hebrews and other peoples by which a man may be obliged to marry his brother's widow.

Are we going to ignore the source of the practice and the actual truth because—Latin?

You asked, I answered. I'll leave it at that. God bless!

And thank you for your answer!

I just wanted to clear up the idea that it's not related to the tribe of Levi, because both yourself and @imge brought up the levitical priesthood.

As I understand it, the practice applies to everyone.

If we take the idea that no part of the law or the prophets has failed or passed away, then this law would still be around.

Does that make sense?

SabbathBlessings · Mar 23, 2021

pescador said:
I really get frustrated with convoluted arguments. You wrote, "That's absurd to think we have been released from the law because of the sacrifice of our Savior." If I may borrow your scissors I can remove this verse from my Bible: "But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code." Romans 7:6

Should I believe you or Paul?

And the very next verse: Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law.

Paul also wrote: “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26). He also warned that those who break various of the ten commandments will not inherit the kingdom of God (Ephesians 5:4-5). Paul wrote a lot and this is only a small fraction of what Paul says on God's laws. The bible does not end on Romans 7:6 and many misunderstand what Paul is saying. Paul also makes it clear what really matters: 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

We should keep God's laws because of our changed hearts, by surrendering to God, doing His will not ours, seeking Him with all our hearts, but the laws didn't disappear and its still a sin to lie, cheat, covet or break any other one of God's commandments. With our changed hearts we want to turn from sin and obey not because its a requirement, because we love Him so much and He asked.

Which is why we still have a lot of scripture telling us to keep the commandments after Paul's writings, including those of Jesus, from His own lips. Mathew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. Luke 11:28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Mathew 15: 3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

James 1:22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God bless

Leaf473 · Mar 23, 2021

imge said:
And the very next verse: Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law.

Paul also wrote: “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26). He also warned that those who break various of the ten commandments will not inherit the kingdom of God (Ephesians 5:4-5). Paul wrote a lot and this is only a small fraction of what Paul says on God's laws. The bible does not end on Romans 7:6 and many misunderstand what Paul is saying. Paul also makes it clear what really matters: 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

We should keep God's laws because of our changed hearts, by surrendering to God, doing His will not ours, seeking Him with all our hearts, but the laws didn't disappear and its still a sin to lie, cheat, covet or break any other one of God's commandments. With our changed hearts we want to turn from sin and obey not because its a requirement, because we love Him so much and He asked.

Which is why we still have a lot of scripture telling us to keep the commandments after Paul's writings, including those of Jesus, from His own lips. Mathew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. Luke 11:28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Mathew 15: 3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

James 1:22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God bless

Just so I can understand, and hopefully discuss this in an edifying way, when you say
"...but the laws didn't disappear and its still a sin to lie, cheat, covet or break any other one of God's commandments."

Do you mean none of the laws disappeared? And it is a sin to break any one of God's commandments?

But how does that fit with what you call "shadow laws", some of which I believe are called commandments in the King James?

Leaf473 · Mar 23, 2021

I also want to add that I really don't want to "hold anyone's feet to the fire."

Myself, I like it when someone can point out some belief I have that is contrary to the scriptures, if it is done in a way that doesn't create further paradoxes or is self-contradictory.

Though I may not like it in the moment!

This proverb that Jesus spoke comes to mind
"But no one who drinks old wine seems to want new wine. ‘The old is just fine,’ they say.” "

BobRyan · Mar 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
Ok -- in the "just a little" category we have
Acts 18:4 "EVERY SABBATH" they met for Gospel preaching to both Jews and gentiles - as given by Paul.
Acts 13 - Sabbath after Sabbath gospel preaching
Acts 17 - Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath gospel preaching.

Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" in the New Earth.

=================

Nothing like that in the NT for "week day 1" when it comes to Gospel preaching

By contrast in the NT not one single quote of the commandment "do not take God's name in vain" -- yet we all know it still matters if one does that or not.

how is this not very clear to all??

true.

Nathan@work said:
Those are are examples of a time period in a story. Not in actual teaching.

So then in those texts God is repeatedly saying "there is such a thing as a 7 day week" and nothing more? No other "detail" is found in those texts?? seriously?

Nathan@work · Mar 23, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Just so I can understand, and hopefully discuss this in an edifying way, when you say
"...but the laws didn't disappear and its still a sin to lie, cheat, covet or break any other one of God's commandments."

Do you mean none of the laws disappeared? And it is a sin to break any one of God's commandments?

But how does that fit with what you call "shadow laws", some of which I believe are called commandments in the King James?

Don't be surprised if you do not get a response. I believe the thread has reached a point of contention.

Some people make a god out of words. No different than in Jesus' day when they would search the Scriptures because they thought life was in the knowing and doing of what they read. God's very first commandment is to have no other gods before Him - and yet people use His own commandments as their object of worship.

The people who make the law their god are self-imposed slaves or have never come out of slavery.

What I am trying to say is they cannot see the freedom in Christ. And just as Satan could not stand to see Adam and Eve in their freedom, so do some people use the law to try and enslave those who are free - and keep those who are not free in the captivity they are in.

The people whose god is the law are not looking for freedom, and the ones who have tasted freedom - then gone back to captivity - simply will not hear about Christs' freedom again. Unfortunately, the passage is fulfilled by them;

[Heb 6:4-6 ESV]
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Satan's goal was not to try and get Adam and Eve to break the commandment of God. His goal was to get them to eat the fruit. For in doing so, he knew, from experience, that it would forever corrupt their thinking. Satan used God's commandment to get them to sin.

[1Ti 1:8-11 ESV] Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

Nathan@work · Mar 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
So then in those texts God is repeatedly saying "there is such a thing as a 7 day week" and nothing more? No other "detail" is found in those texts?? seriously?

No, in those texts you listed, they are using it to define a period of time.

They are not teaching about the Sabbath any more than I would be teaching about Tuesday is I stated that is what day today is.

For example, a month from now in April, I will be having a birthday. I will be 42 years old. I was born in a hospital on the east coast in April.

Now, I was not teaching about "April" just because I used the word was I? If I was, what did you learn about "April"?

SabbathBlessings · Mar 23, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Don't be surprised if you do not get a response. I believe the thread has reached a point of contention.

Some people make a god out of words. No different than in Jesus' day when they would search the Scriptures because they thought life was in the knowing and doing of what they read. God's very first commandment is to have no other gods before Him - and yet people use His own commandments as their object of worship.

The people who make the law their god are self-imposed slaves or have never come out of slavery.

What I am trying to say is they cannot see the freedom in Christ. And just as Satan could not stand to see Adam and Eve in their freedom, so do some people use the law to try and enslave those who are free - and keep those who are not free in the captivity they are in.

The people whose god is the law are not looking for freedom, and the ones who have tasted freedom - then gone back to captivity - simply will not hear about Christs' freedom again. Unfortunately, the passage is fulfilled by them;

[Heb 6:4-6 ESV]
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Satan's goal was not to try and get Adam and Eve to break the commandment of God. His goal was to get them to eat the fruit. For in doing so, he knew, from experience, that it would forever corrupt their thinking. Satan used God's commandment to get them to sin.

[1Ti 1:8-11 ESV] Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

Many have responded to you over and over so that is misleading considering how many have responded.

No one worship words, that is absurd. We worship God and we are told every Word from His mouth is the Truth and is pure. Proverbs 3:5 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. 6. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. This includes Exodus 20 that is now written in our hearts in the New Covenant. We are told keeping God's commandments is mans all Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.

There is even a warning for those who are teaching others to break God's laws Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Jesus came to do the will of His Father and did not come to destroy God's laws and He teaches us the importance of His laws. Mathew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. Luke 11:28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Mathew 15: 3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

We are given free will, which means we have choices we can DO the will of God or do the will of the other spirit. You can not obey two masters.

True repentance requires a changed heart and turning away from sin (keeping God's laws). When Jesus healed He said go sin no more.

James 1:22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

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