Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

SabbathBlessings · Mar 13, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I can agree that the general thrust of nine of the 10 commandments are written on our hearts.

When it comes to the fourth commandment, the thing for me is, I don't see when people become new Christians that they start having this real desire to worship on Saturday.

They will worship on saturday, if that's what they have been told or have read from a source they trust. But that's something external, not something written on their hearts.

Of course, they will also worship on Sunday if that's what they've been told.

The source is God (and I do trust Him!) which He clearly wrote His will in Exodus 20:8-11. Keeping the day our Creator deemed holy, the only day, is allowing God to be God and not obeying a commandment of man that Jesus warns us about. Mathew 15:8-9 I do find it ironic that the only commandant people want to “do away with” is the only commandment God started with the word REMEMBER.

Also, if God was going to change anything in the New Covenant, He would have done so at that point. There was never a change to any of His 10 commandments. God already told us the Sabbath commandment is a perpetual covenant, which is why it was created from week one Genesis 2:2-3 and will continue on forever.

Clare73 · Mar 13, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I can agree that the general thrust of nine of the 10 commandments are written on our hearts.
When it comes to the fourth commandment, the thing for me is, I don't see when people become new Christians that they start having this real desire to worship on Saturday.
They will worship on saturday, if that's what they have been told or have read from a source they trust. But that's something external, not something written on their hearts.
Of course, they will also worship on Sunday if that's what they've been told.

Fulfillment of the fourth commandment in Christ is addressed in post #715, Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Nathan@work · Mar 13, 2021

I’m not seeing the problem here.

Those who are in Christ keep the law.

Seems very simple to me.

Lots of arguing over personal preferences I see.

Leaf473 · Mar 13, 2021

imge said:
The source is God (and I do trust Him!) which He clearly wrote His will in Exodus 20:8-11. Keeping the day our Creator deemed holy, the only day, is allowing God to be God and not obeying a commandment of man that Jesus warns us about. Mathew 15:8-9 I do find it ironic that the only commandant people want to “do away with” is the only commandment God started with the word REMEMBER.

Also, if God was going to change anything in the New Covenant, He would have done so at that point. There was never a change to any of His 10 commandments. God already told us the Sabbath commandment is a perpetual covenant, which is why it was created from week one Genesis 2:2-3 and will continue on forever.

I believe the question is, which laws are written on our hearts? Yes, God revealed his will in Exodus, but in lots of other places as well.

We can't keep all of those expressions of God's will written in the bible, there's no physical Temple or priesthood on Earth.

So which are the laws that are written on our heart? Myself, I don't think it's actually a set of words, more like a set of ideas.

Christians around the world do not refrain from working on Saturday. Yes, some do, but the majority don't, I think.
So it's hard for me to think that this is a law that is written on everyone's heart.

But Christians around the world do agree that hurting other people needlessly is wrong. Why? I think it's because the idea is written on our hearts. But there is no specific commandment that says that, that I know of.

So I think it's a set of ideas that's written on our heart.

Nathan@work · Mar 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Well, it was the Ark of the Covenant (Nu 10:33), the Ark of the Testimony (Ex 25:16).

The stone tablets were testimony to the covenant conditions: to be their God was conditioned on obedience to the Ten Commandments (Exodus 19:5; Jeremiah 11:4-5, 7:23; Lev 26:3 w/12;
Hos 1:8-9).

The stone tablets were also testimony to their sin in breaking the commandments (Deuteronomy 31:26).

There were other testimonies in the Ark (Hebrews 9:4):
jar of manna - testimony to their grumbling (Ex 16:2-4, 33) and
Aaron's staff - testimony to Korah's rebellion against the priesthood (Nu 16:1-3, 17:10).

All true.

But why the second time, not the first. That’s the key.

Leaf473 · Mar 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Addressed in post #715 Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Also #721, 733, 748.

If I understand what you're saying, I agree.
Christians around the world do universally talk about rest in Christ, amen!

Clare73 · Mar 13, 2021

Nathan@work said:
All true.

But why the second time, not the first. That’s the key.

I don't find such to be as meaningful as what is actually revealed. . .my heart is so content with the Word written.

Inventions of our own imaginations and so agreeable to our own fancies, with no basis in Scripture, can actually serve as distractions from what is actually written.

Clare73 · Mar 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Not significant to me.

Leaf473 said:
If I understand what you're saying, I agree.
Christians around the world do universally talk about rest in Christ, amen!

It is a debative defense of the matter.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 13, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I believe the question is, which laws are written on our hearts? Yes, God revealed his will in Exodus, but in lots of other places as well.

We can't keep all of those expressions of God's will written in the bible, there's no physical Temple or priesthood on Earth.

So which are the laws that are written on our heart? Myself, I don't think it's actually a set of words, more like a set of ideas.

Christians around the world do not refrain from working on Saturday. Yes, some do, but the majority don't, I think.
So it's hard for me to think that this is a law that is written on everyone's heart.

But Christians around the world do agree that hurting other people needlessly is wrong. Why? I think it's because the idea is written on our hearts. But there is no specific commandment that says that, that I know of.

So I think it's a set of ideas that's written on our heart.

It was answered Exodus 20. That is the first covenant. God’s laws. The second covenant was an amendment to the first covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-33 God’s laws Exodus 20 written in our hearts and minds. Same laws different promises. His covenant will not be altered or break Psalms 89:34

Keeping God’s commandments is choice we all have to make. You can choose to tell a lie or tell the truth. You can choose to keep the Sabbath or break it. Because you are not scheduled on Saturday, does not necessarily mean you are keeping the 4th commandment. The Sabbath commandment is like the other 9, it is a commandment, something we are supposed to do. The first verse of the commandment is Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy. It’s the Lords Holy day that He commanded each of us to keep Holy. Exodus 20:8-11. We are to set aside our weekly pleasures on Sabbath Isaiah 58:13,14

We obey God’s commandments because our love for Him as we have a new heart and God knows us by our fruits. Our new heart wants to keep His commandments, its choice we make. God gives us free will and Jesus said, If you love Me keep My commandments. John 14:15. So we obey out of our love and His commandments are not burdensome 1 John 5:33 including the 4th that He says is a sign between Him and His people. Ezekiel 20:20 and Exodus 31:12-17

Nathan@work · Mar 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
I don't find such to be as meaningful as what is actually revealed, it can even be a distraction. . .my heart is so content with the Word written.

No, it is very meaningful. Overlooked for sure.

There is a reason for it. There is a reason for everything God does.

I don’t believe He wants us to just read and study the things we want to and leave the rest as insignificant.

If people truly understood what it meant that He had Moses put the tablets in the Ark then maybe there would be less fighting about them.

Clare73 · Mar 13, 2021

Nathan@work said:
No, it is very meaningful. Overlooked for sure.
There is a reason for it. There is a reason for everything God does.
I don’t believe He wants us to just read and study the things we want to and leave the rest as insignificant.
If people truly understood what it meant that He had Moses put the tablets in the Ark then maybe there would be less fighting about them.

Do you have any Biblical authority for that particular interpretation?

Is your personal interpretation the solution for what you personally see as a problem?

Inventions of our own imagination so suitable to our own fancies and with no Biblical basis often serve as distractions from what is actually written.

HIM · Mar 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
So we agree that "God's Word in its entirety" is not written on our hearts.

No. With Christ, God residing in us we put no limitation on how much the Word is, or is to be manifested in our flesh.

HIM · Mar 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Not really. . .

The Old (Mosaic) Covenant was bilateral, conditioned on man's obedience, and could be abrogated by man's breaking it, which it was.

The New Covenant is unilateral, entered into by faith in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ for remission of one's sin, is not subject to abrogation, nor to one falling out of it.

Saith you. God says different.
He said the word which He commanded them that day. Which was to keep the commandments and statutes written in the book of the law was nigh them. IN THERE HEART AND MOUTH THAT MAYEST DO IT.
LET'S GO WITH THAT and not a thus saith I.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Clare73 · Mar 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
The Old (Mosaic) Covenant was bilateral, conditioned on man's obedience, and could be abrogated by man's breaking it, which it was.

The New Covenant is unilateral, entered into by faith in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ for remission of one's sin, is not subject to abrogation, nor to one falling out of it.

HIM said:
Saith you. God says different.

Saith you. God says different.

"Saith" the Word of God in Exodus 24:3-8, bilateral--made by both God and the people.
"Saith" the Word of God in Jeremiah 11:10; Hebrews 8:8, broken by the people

Where does Scripture saith what must be performed on the part of the people in the New Covenant?

He said the word which He commanded them that day. Which was to keep the commandments and statutes written in the book of the law was nigh them. IN THERE HEART AND MOUTH THAT MAYEST DO IT.
LET'S GO WITH THAT and not a thus saith I.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

But Deut is 40 years after Sinai.

And "in" your heart is not "written on" your heart--in your disposition.

"In" your heart is from the outside in.

While "written on your heart" is from the inside out, from your own disposition.

That's a very big difference, it's the difference between the Mosaic Covenant of works and the New Covenant of grace.

And we have no Biblical warrant for the entirety of the Word of God being "written on our hearts."

HIM · Mar 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Deut is 40 years after Sinai.

"In" your heart is not "written on" your heart--your disposition.

In your heart is from the outside in.

Written on your heart is from the inside out, from your own disposition.

Written in our heart is from the Spirit, the Anointing of the Lord as is His Word being nigh unto us in our and in our mouth.

Incidentally the Law is written and put in both our mind and heart through God's Spirit. Our own disposition is not our own nor is it to be. It is of Christ.

Leaf473 · Mar 13, 2021

imge said:
It was answered Exodus 20. That is the first covenant. God’s laws. The second covenant was an amendment to the first covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-33 God’s laws Exodus 20 written in our hearts and minds. Same laws different promises. His covenant will not be altered or break Psalms 89:34

Keeping God’s commandments is choice we all have to make. You can choose to tell a lie or tell the truth. You can choose to keep the Sabbath or break it. Because you are not scheduled on Saturday, does not necessarily mean you are keeping the 4th commandment. The Sabbath commandment is like the other 9, it is a commandment, something we are supposed to do. The first verse of the commandment is Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy. It’s the Lords Holy day that He commanded each of us to keep Holy. Exodus 20:8-11. We are to set aside our weekly pleasures on Sabbath Isaiah 58:13,14

We obey God’s commandments because our love for Him as we have a new heart and God knows us by our fruits. Our new heart wants to keep His commandments, its choice we make. God gives us free will and Jesus said, If you love Me keep My commandments. John 14:15. So we obey out of our love and His commandments are not burdensome 1 John 5:33 including the 4th that He says is a sign between Him and His people. Ezekiel 20:20 and Exodus 31:12-17

It's my impression that the old covenant was based on all of the laws given through Moses in the wilderness.

But I don't think we're going to agree about that.

would you agree that the majority of Christians do not observe rest on saturday? How would you explain this, if that rule is written on their hearts?

My explanation is that what is written is not a particular set of words. It is ideas.

It's my impression that none of the actual words of any of the rules given in the scriptures are what is written on our hearts. What is written is more like a lifestyle, a way of living. That is what we see in the vast majority of Christians the world over, imo.

Nathan@work · Mar 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Do you have any Biblical authority for that particular interpretation?

Is your personal interpretation the solution for what you personally see as a problem?

As a matter of fact I have the authority given to me by Christ.

The Spirit bears witness to mine so I know it’s true.

All reading of the Bible is personal interpretation unless God bears witness to it. Why do you think there are so many denominations?

There are things I think.

There are things I believe.

There are things I know.

The things I know, I don’t know because I decided to know, but because He shows me. It is those things, that food He gives, that works in me to grow my Faith.

Matthew 7:7 (ESV)
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Do you believe what He said is true?

Clare73 · Mar 13, 2021

Leaf473 said:
It's my impression that the old covenant was based on all of the laws given through Moses in the wilderness.

Actually the Mosaic Covenant is not based on the ceremonial laws (sacrifices, etc.).

The Mosaic Covenant was ratified in Exodus 24:3-8, before the ceremonial laws of Leviticus were given.

But I don't think we're going to agree about that.

would you agree that the majority of Christians do not observe rest on saturday? How would you explain this, if that rule is written on their hearts?

According to Hebrews 4:1-13, the Christian rests full-time in God's full-time Sabbath-rest in the salvation-rest of Jesus, where we rest from our own work to save, and in Jesus' finished work that saved us.

According to Hebrews 4:1-13, Jesus is the fulfillment of God's full-time Sabbath rest, who was prefigured in the full-time rest from their enemies in Canaan, just as he is the fulfillment of the sacrifices, cleansings, feast days, holy years, tabernacle, priesthood and mediator/lawgiver.

My explanation is that what is written is not a particular set of words. It is ideas.

It's my impression that none of the actual words of any of the rules given in the scriptures are what is written on our hearts. What is written is more like a lifestyle, a way of living. That is what we see in the vast majority of Christians the world over, imo.

"Lifestyle" is a good way to describe Commandments 5-10.

Oops! This wasn't addressed to me. . .oh, well, it's still God's revelation anyway.

Nathan@work · Mar 13, 2021

Leaf473 said:
It's my impression that the old covenant was based on all of the laws given through Moses in the wilderness.

But I don't think we're going to agree about that.

would you agree that the majority of Christians do not observe rest on saturday? How would you explain this, if that rule is written on their hearts?

My explanation is that what is written is not a particular set of words. It is ideas.

It's my impression that none of the actual words of any of the rules given in the scriptures are what is written on our hearts. What is written is more like a lifestyle, a way of living. That is what we see in the vast majority of Christians the world over, imo.

Your impression is correct. The first covenant was based on all the laws given.

If a person goes and looks at what Jesus said when asked about the law, you’ll see He quotes from a passage in Deuteronomy 6.

This passages follows all the laws given, not just the ‘Ten Commandments’.

Clare73 · Mar 13, 2021

Nathan@work said:
As a matter of fact I have the authority given to me by Christ.

The Spirit bears witness to mine so I know it’s true.

All reading of the Bible is personal interpretation unless God bears witness to it. Why do you think there are so many denominations?

There are things I think.

There are things I believe.

There are things I know.

The things I know, I don’t know because I decided to know, but because He shows me. It is those things, that food He gives, that works in me to grow my Faith.

Matthew 7:7 (ESV)
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Do you believe what He said is true?

What he gives me to know is understanding and opening of what is written, in light of the whole counsel of God.
.

Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

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