Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

SabbathBlessings · Mar 8, 2021

Nathan@work said:
No, keeping the Sabbath will never be a sin. Worshiping God was never a sin - until man made it a sin.

[Exo 20:24-26 ESV]

An altar of earth you shall make for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen. In every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you. If you make me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stones, for if you wield your tool on it you profane it. And you shall not go up by steps to my altar, that your nakedness be not exposed on it.'

They could sin in worshiping God if they did it the wrong way.

What I am saying is when you make the Sabbath your god, make an idol of it, take His name in vain in the process - then yes it is a sin.

There were many "laws" that God had in place for the Children of Israel. Taking just the Sabbath laws out, and leaving the rest, is choosing your own god to worship.

Your not a child of Israel, you are a child of God - if indeed God lives in you.

God's seal, for His Children, born of His Spirit, is His Holy Spirit - not the Sabbath. The Sabbath was a sign between Him and the Children of Israel.

The New Testament never speaks of the Sabbath as a sign of God on His Children. If you know of a place please post it.

[Rev 3:15-19 ESV]

"'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

The mark of the beast is about worship:

Revelations 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

This verses leads you right back to God's 4th commandment :

Exodus20:
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Revelations 14:8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

And the very next verse:

Revelations 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

God’s seal is found in the Sabbath commandment because it is the only commandment among the Ten Commandments that contains the name, title and territory of God.

BobRyan · Mar 8, 2021

Nathan@work said:
They could sin in worshiping God if they did it the wrong way.

hmmmm .. there is something to think about. Like Cain and Able. Both were worshiping God.

Nathan@work said:
What I am saying is when you make the Sabbath your god, make an idol of it,

That is not logical. It is like saying "when you make the act of not taking God's name in vain your god you make an idol of it". It makes no sense and no such warnings are found about that in the Bible.

Nathan@work · Mar 8, 2021

BobRyan said:
The Sabbath is not a person or a place -- it is a thing -

Mankind defiles it when as God says "they profane it" refusing to "honor it" as we see the saints honoring it in Is 58:13..

There is no "Sabbath above God" text in scripture. It would be like saying "not making graven images - so attentively that it is above God" it is not logical.

Instead of the warning against being "too obedient" in the Bible warning is against being too much in rebellion and forgetful.

Not one single text saying that "to profane the Sabbath" is to obey it too carefully.

To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,

"It" is a thing that can be profaned.

The Sabbath cannot be made un-holy. Impossible. You, nor anyone else, is stronger than God.

You profane the Sabbath when you go up on man-made hewn steps, and show the nakedness of yourself. The Pharisees were guilty of this in Jesus' day.

pescador · Mar 8, 2021

Nathan@work said:
The Sabbath cannot be made un-holy. Impossible. You, nor anyone else, is stronger than God.

You profane the Sabbath when you go up on man-made hewn steps, and show the nakedness of yourself. The Pharisees were guilty of this in Jesus' day.

The Pharisees went up man-made hewn steps and showed their "nakedness"? Really? How do you know this?

BobRyan · Mar 8, 2021

Nathan@work said:
The Sabbath cannot be made un-holy. Impossible. You, nor anyone else, is stronger than God.

These Bible texts warn against that very thing

BobRyan said:
Isaiah 56:8
“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To attend to His service and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,
And holds firmly to My covenant; NASB

“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant— NKJV

God declared his sanctuary/temple on earth to be a holy place yet profane men offered pig sacrifices there so as to defile/profane it.

By contrast Is 58:13 those who keep the Sabbath
“If, because of the Sabbath, you restrain your foot
From doing as you wish on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a pleasure, and the holy day of the Lord honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,

God's name is holy and sacred and YET "do not take God's name in vain" is still the command of God. No playing games with God's Word will work. When a man takes God's name in vain he has not destroyed the name of God or lessened infinite God - YET man can take God's name in vain. It is a fact.

It is hard to see how this point is even debatable.

BobRyan · Mar 8, 2021

Nathan@work said:
You profane the Sabbath when you go up on man-made hewn steps,

Profaning the Sabbath is done by doing those very things which God says not to do on the Sabbath - treating it as common and ordinary as if man "owns it and can do as he wishes" - every Bible scholar on Earth knows that this is what is being referenced in Isaiah 56:6-8 regarding gentiles who either choose to keep from profaning the Sabbath or to go ahead and disregard it altogether.

Nothing there about "man-made hewn steps" that I can see, unless you are saying that those who think they have god-like control of it and can disregard whatever God's Word says - are creating "man-made hewn steps"

Chi.C · Mar 8, 2021

Leaf473 said:
The part I don't understand, is this

Suppose the child is born at 1000 hours on Sunday and dies at 1400 hours on Monday.
How old is the child at death?
2 days old or 1.58 days old?
If 1.58, then why do the 14 hours on the day of his birth count as a full day, but the 14 hours on the day of his death do not?

According the logic I proposed, it would be 1 day old. The second day had not finished.
Tombstone demarcation is of similar results. See the link
Tombstone Birthday Calculator

Input
Date of Death Jan2,1900
Age 1 day

Output
Date of Birth Jan1,1900

Leaf473 · Mar 8, 2021

Chi.C said:
According the logic I proposed, it would be 1 day old. The second day had not finished.
Tombstone demarcation is of similar results. See the link
Tombstone Birthday Calculator

Input
Date of Death Jan2,1900
Age 1 day

Output
Date of Birth Jan1,1900

Well, without beating the subject to death, then
it sounds like it is important to circumcise on the Sabbath even though it would count as work, imo.

So I think the general principle is that it is lawful to do good, including work that is good, on the Sabbath.

To put it in everyday speech, I think we could say that it's okay to do the work that God leads you to do on the Sabbath.

Great discussion, btw!

Chi.C · Mar 8, 2021

Leaf473 said:
To put it in everyday speech, I think we could say that it's okay to do the work that God leads you to do on the Sabbath.

Great discussion, btw!

I have an axiom which says the bible is inerrant, legally, logically and practically. Everything is good.

Thanks for the discussion.

Nathan@work · Mar 8, 2021

imge said:
The mark of the beast is about worship:

Revelations 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

This verses leads you right back to God's 4th commandment :

Exodus20:
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Revelations 14:8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

And the very next verse:

Revelations 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

God’s seal is found in the Sabbath commandment because it is the only commandment among the Ten Commandments that contains the name, title and territory of God.

The mark of the beast isn't "about" something, it "is" something.

God's seal for His Children is not the Sabbath. You will never see it written for that very reason. Just because the SDA has written it does not put them into the place of God. If anything it should be a warning to others about the rest of their doctrine.

God's seal is His Spirit.

[Eph 1:13 ESV] In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

[Eph 4:30 ESV] And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

[2Co 1:22 ESV] and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Nathan@work · Mar 8, 2021

pescador said:
The Pharisees went up man-made hewn steps and showed their "nakedness"? Really? How do you know this?

Spiritual, yes. Just like those in Laodecia that think they are rich and in need of nothing - but are actually wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

Nakedness is a spiritual condition.

[Heb 4:13 ESV] And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Nathan@work · Mar 8, 2021

BobRyan said:
Profaning the Sabbath is done by doing those things which God says not to do on the Sabbath - treating it as common and ordinary as if man "owns it and can do as he wishes" - every Bible scholar on Earth knows that this is what is being referenced in Isaiah 56:6-8 regarding gentiles who either choose to keep from profaning the Sabbath or to go ahead and disregard it altogether.

Nothing there about "man-made hewn steps" that I can see, unless you are saying that those who think they have god-like control of it and can disregard whatever God's Word says - are creating "man-made hewn steps"

Do you know the definition of the word "profane"?

Nathan@work · Mar 8, 2021

BobRyan said:
These Bible texts warn against that very thing

God's name is holy and sacred and YET "do not take God's name in vain" is still the command of God. No playing games with God's Word will work. When a man takes God's name in vain he has not destroyed the name of God or lessened infinite God - YET man can take God's name in vain. It is a fact.

It is hard to see how this point is even debatable.

It's debatable because I never said you cannot profane it.

This is the problem. You are reading words that are simply not there. This is how people develop dangerous doctrines from the Bible.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 8, 2021

Nathan@work said:
The mark of the beast isn't "about" something, it "is" something.

God's seal for His Children is not the Sabbath. You will never see it written for that very reason. Just because the SDA has written it does not put them into the place of God. If anything it should be a warning to others about the rest of their doctrine.

God's seal is His Spirit.

[Eph 1:13 ESV] In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

[Eph 4:30 ESV] And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

[2Co 1:22 ESV] and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

It's about who we worship. God who made the heaven and earth as stated in His 4th commandment which is about worship.

Nathan@work · Mar 8, 2021

imge said:
It's about who we worship. God who made the heaven and earth as stated in His 4th commandment which is about worship.

Do you think that the heavens and the earth are His greatest creation?

pescador · Mar 8, 2021

imge said:
It's about who we worship. God who made the heaven and earth as stated in His 4th commandment which is about worship.

The fourth commandment says, "You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy." How is this about worship? It's His instructions to rest one day per week.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 8, 2021

pescador said:
The fourth commandment says, "You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy." How is this about worship? It's His instructions to rest one day per week.

His instructions say to keep the seventh day Holy. It's the day God blessed, made holy, told us to hallow and sanctified. He never said that about any other day. Saturday was the primary day of worship until it was changed by the Roman Catholic church.

Isaiah 66:23

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 8, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Do you think that the heavens and the earth are His greatest creation?

What I say isn't worth a penny. What God says matters, not me

98cwitr · Mar 8, 2021

imge said:
With the growing number of churches that are teaching God’s laws are a thing of the past citing arguments like “we are not under the law we are under grace” or “Gods laws are only for the Jews ” I thought I would create a post to examine what does the Bible teach us about the laws of God. If we remove God's laws what are we really teaching and what are we removing from our lives?

Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 13: 5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
According to scripture we should test ourselves to ensure we are in the faith.

My pastor preached a beautiful sermon on this topic so I wanted to share here.

What happens if we remove Gods laws? Is God’s character in Gods laws? If we remove His laws are we removing God?

God is Good:
Luke 18:19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God

God’s law is Good:
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Holy:
Isaiah 5:16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment,
And God who is holy shall be hallowed in righteousness.

God’s law is Holy:
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Just:
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.

God’s laws are Just: Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Perfect:
Mathew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

God’s law is Perfect:
Psalms 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

God is Love
1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

God's law is Love:
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

God is Righteous
Exodus 9:27 2 And Pharaoh sent and called for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “I have sinned this time. The Lord is righteous, and my people and I are wicked.

God’s laws are Righteous
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the LORD are firm, and all of them are righteous.

God is Truth:
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

God’s law is Truth:
Psalms 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Psalms 119:151 You are near, O LORD, And all Your commandments are truth.

God is Pure:
1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

God’s laws are Pure:
Psalms 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;

God is Spiritual:
John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

God’s law is Spiritual:
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

God is Unchangeable:
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God’s laws are Unchangeable:
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

God is Eternal
Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

God’s laws are Eternal
Psalms 111:7,8 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, And are done in truth and uprightness

Considering God’s character is reflected in Gods laws, when we remove God’s law what else are we removing?

Yes, we are saved by grace (God’s gift) but what else does the Word of God tell us?

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

2 John 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

1 John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Mathew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Mathew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God's commandments are found in Exodus 20 written in our hearts and mind in the new covenant Hebrews 10:16.

God bless

Literally learned this word for the first time last night: Antinomianism

Apparently, this "heresy" has been a point of contention since the 1500s.

pescador · Mar 8, 2021

imge said:
His instructions say to keep the seventh day Holy. It's the day God blessed, made holy, told us to hallow and sanctified. He never said that about any other day. Saturday was the primary day of worship until it was changed by the Roman Catholic church.

Isaiah 66:23

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Exodus 16:23, "He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’"

Exodus 20:9-11, "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Exodus 31:14-15, “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death."

Exodus 23:32, "It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath.”

And of course there are many more references...

The point is that there is one day a week to not do any unnecessary work, but to rest. That concept was unknown in the ancient world. God rested on the seventh day as an example to us.

Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

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