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We go beyond
obey
to
fulfill!
Hi Freth, good to see you again."You look to a book for truth. If someone doesn’t provide passages from that book you discount them. If they do quote passages from it, you discount them."
Here's why:
1. The Bible is the word of truth.
2. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. Truth is the word of God.
- We are to study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word of truth. —2 Timothy 3:15
- The word of God is quick, powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, of the joints and the marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. —Hebrews 4:12
- To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. —Isaiah 8:20
3. The Holy Spirit gives discernment.
- From your very own post: ...the Spirit is the truth... —1 John 5:6
- ...sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God... —Ephesians 6:17
Knowing these things, why wouldn't you use the truth to speak the truth? Not your own words, but God's words. What is more authoritative than the word of God, discerned through the Holy Spirit?
- But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. —1 Corinthians 2:14
Isaiah confirms this very thing concerning the Sabbath day, which is God's day of worship.
This is how we keep the Sabbath holy, but it is also how we are holy in our daily walk. Honoring Him, speaking His words and not our own, seeking to live holy lives. Thus, every day we should share the word of God with others and correct our brethren, because we love them and want to see them in the kingdom. This does not mean that we are not above correction. We can learn from each other.
- ...on my holy day...honor him...[not] speaking thine own words...[speaking the word of God, doing His work] —Isaiah 58:13
"You want to see what you want to see in a written letter."
- The language of the Bible is clear and concise. So is the context.
- The Holy Spirit gives discernment. Pulling ideas from thin air is not being led by the Spirit of truth.
- Jesus warned about adding to or taking away from scripture. —Revelation 22:18-19
"What I am hoping you’ll do is look to the One who wrote the things you read about."
- And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. —John 1:14
- You can't separate Jesus from the word of God (above), nor God from Jesus. —Colossians 1:19
- Therefore, reading God's word is looking directly at God and listening to Him.
"The Ark had all the law. The tablets placed inside, the book of the law on its side. It was all apart [sic] of the Ark. Jesus is Gods testimony. Jesus is the Ark of God. Just as in the days of Noah, only those inside the Ark were saved, so to only those in Christ will be saved. Please [@imge], hear His voice today. He is calling you. Faith is not against the law, Faith upholds the law. You cannot replace Faith with the law and be saved."
If you have read our posts, I don't think you can come away with the idea that we do not have faith in Christ or that we obey for any other reason than love for God.
- I performed a search of imge's posts in this thread, containing the word love. The result was 74 posts. 74 times, she has shown that she believes that we show our love for God by obeying His commandments.
- I performed a search of my own posts in this thread, containing the word love. The result was 13 posts. 13 times, I have shown that I believe that we show our love of God by obeying His commandments.
- I performed a search of BobRyan's posts in this thread, containing the word love. The result was 16 posts. 16 times, he has shown that he believes that we show our love of God by obeying His commandments.
- I performed a search of LoveGodsWord's posts in this thread, containing the word love. The result was 25 posts. 25 times, he has shown that he believes that we show our love of God by obeying His commandments.
- I performed a search of Religiout's posts in this thread, containing the word love. The result was 5 posts. 5 times, he has shown that he believes that we show our love of God by obeying His commandments.
- I performed a search of HIM's posts in this thread, containing the word love. The result was 3 posts. 3 times, he has shown that he believes that we show our love of God by obeying His commandments.
You quoted 1 John 5:6-12, but left out verse 2, which makes the very point we've been saying for 100 pages now.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
So you don’t want to answer the questions? That’s okay if you do not.We go beyond
obey
to
fulfill!
What we practice then is not the letter of the commandment, but the intention or Spirit of it.
The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND have the faith of Jesus" Rev 14:12.. It is not either-or.
The New Covenant - Jer 31:31-34 writes the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers on heart and mind. And is unchanged ... verbatim the same in the NT - Heb 8:6-12
Thank you for the questionsThanks for your reply. Just want to clarify some things so I understand your views.
Well, I believe *in* Jesus.Do you still believe in animal sacrifices?
No, they are not the same commandment.Do you think loving our neighbor is the same as loving God?
No. To use the Lord's name (YHWH) in vain would be to pledge to do something using that name and then fail to do it. Since no one knows for sure how to say God's name or what it means, it's extremely rare to hear it done.Do you think using the Lord's name in vain is the same as taking an oath?
It's a good question, and I'm glad you keep asking. It shows me that you're interested in understanding what I'm sayingWhat is your definition of fulfilled?
And I'm glad you asked about a concrete example.I believe we talked about the several hundred posts ago, but let's try a different approach this time.
I'm using fulfill and fulfilling the same way that many Christians talk about how the shadow laws have been fulfilled.
Those laws are still on the books, and we can gain great wisdom from them.
But we no longer perform the particular physical actions they describe.
God says his commandments, many of them the "shadow laws", are eternal, indeed he says all of his words last forever.
But certain things we no longer "do" with our hands.
Excellent example.Lets take it literally. When God says not to worship any idols, but its fulfilled in Jesus, is it okay to put money above God now?
Correct, those in Christ do keep them.The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND have the faith of Jesus" Rev 14:12.. It is not either-or.
The New Covenant - Jer 31:31-34 writes the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers on heart and mind. And is unchanged ... verbatim the same in the NT - Heb 8:6-12
Correct, those in Christ do keep them.
That does not mean the law if of Faith. It is not.
Galatians 3:12 (ESV)
But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”
Right, the law still exists and still demands perfection.Law without the Gospel is only condemnation - because the Law of God still exists even after the cross. And as Rom 3:19-20 points out - it still has power to condemn all mankind to the 2nd death - lake of fire.
But the Gospel transforms the relationship so that Paul can ask "what then? do we abolish the Law by our faith? " and then answer " God forbid! in fact we establish the Law" Rom 3:31
Why ? because that law that used to condemn is now written on the heart.
The result is Rom 8:4-12 where the Spirit filled saints comply with the Word of God the lost "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they"
Hi BobRyan, good to see you again!When it comes to moral law "fulfill" does not mean "delete".
That means not only did Jesus "not take God's name in vain" but also it is still a sin even for Christians to "take God's name in vain". Because even in the NT "Sin is transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
As do Bible scholars in almost every Christian denomination
When contrasting ceremonial law such as circumcision to the moral law of God 1 Cor 7:19 Paul says circumcision does not matter but "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" - where that includes the TEN as Paul said in Eph 6:1-2 the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise".
Does "fulfill" mean one thing for "shadow" laws and another thing for "moral" laws?
.
Well, consider what I think you believe to be the shadow laws.Matt 7 - Christ said they are the same thing.
A distinction without a difference.
I thought I had answered the questions.So you don’t want to answer the questions? That’s okay if you do not.
God bless.
Hi again, thanks for the nice response.Hi -
Yes - prescriptive laws complied with - do not then delete themselves. The sign says 55 so your speed is 55... but that does not mean that once you pass there is no longer a speed limit.
God says "Do not take God's name in vain" - but He does not mean that as soon as the first person does not take God's name in vain - then everyone else is free to do so ... it is no longer a sin to do it.
Moral law is "prescriptive" - it dictates what right actions are. Right actions do not become "wrong" or "unknown" as soon as someone does the right thing.
============================
Predictive Laws end when the event they predict takes place.
Animal sacrifices predicted the coming of Christ as the "Lamb of God" that takes away the sin of the world.
Heb 10:4-9 says that the "sacrifices and offerings" ended at the cross.
It is a distinctive difference admitted to by the Bible scholars of almost every major Christian denomination on earth.
Thank you for the questions
Well, I believe *in* Jesus.
If you're asking: Do I believe Christians today ought to sacrifice animals for their sins, no, I do not believe that.
No, they are not the same commandment.
At the same time, you can't do one without doing the other. So in everyday life, they are the same.
No. To use the Lord's name (YHWH) in vain would be to pledge to do something using that name and then fail to do it. Since no one knows for sure how to say God's name or what it means, it's extremely rare to hear it done.
I have heard lots of people request that God curse things in an irreligious manner, but that's different imo.
I have noticed that people who are often asking God to curse things do not generally think highly of the needs of their neighbors.
It's a good question, and I'm glad you keep asking. It shows me that you're interested in understanding what I'm saying
And I'm glad you asked about a concrete example.
Excellent example.
I cannot imagine how a person who truly loves their neighbor would then want to put money above God.
Do you remember the story of the man who has lots of good crops and so decides to build a bigger Barn? He could easily have been obeying the letter of the law. But God calls him a fool.
I think that one of the purposes of the law was to prepare Israel to receive the Messiah. It conforms the outward part of a person.
But the Spirit inside of Christians changes them from the inside out. The more they cling to God, as practiced in loving their neighbors, the more they despise wealth.
Suppose God came to you in a dream and said that the Bible contained an error and it was actually just fine to lust after worldly wealth all you want. (It's a thought experiment, set aside for the moment the idea that God would say that.)
Would your reaction be Oh good, now I can go shopping and buy more clothes even though I have a closet full already. I'll build a bigger closet!
If so, that would show that you are not concerned about your neighbors who do not have even a single good set of clothes.
So in practice, I don't know how it could be achieved that a person could love their neighbor and then put money above God.
Indeed, when I hear that question, I often wonder, If that law were not "on the books", would the asker feel it was okay to go out and buy large hauls of clothes every week?
Hi imge, and thank you for taking all that time to research my posts that carefully!Hi there,
Thanks for getting back to me...
You said
Well, myself I don't divide the law into the shadow laws and non-shadow laws. I believe they are all fulfilled by Jesus, he said that's what he came to do.
and than
If you're asking: Do I believe Christians today ought to sacrifice animals for their sins, no, I do not believe that.
and previously said this
No, I'm not saying the Ten commandments are Shadow laws, sorry I didn't make that clear.
So you do divide the laws since you agree the Ten are not shadows laws, than go on to say the law regarding sacrificial animals is a shadow law, which I also agree with. However, your statement seems contradict each other.
Some laws are shadow laws that ended at the cross like circumcision, animal sacrifices and feast days Hebrews 10:5,6 Colossians 2:16,17 but Paul goes on to say circumcision or no circumcision does not matter but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God Cor 7:19
I asked if it's okay to take the Lord's name in vain and your reply was
I believe taking God's name in vain refers to the practice of swearing an oath, usually with the formula "As YHWH lives..."
I think the commandment is saying if you take an oath using God's name, be sure you keep it.
Jesus expanded on that commandment, saying Don't take an oath at all.
So in your opinion, it's okay to literally take the Lord's name in vain as long as you are not taking an oath?
And I'm glad you asked about a concrete example.
Excellent example.
I cannot imagine how a person who truly loves their neighbor would then want to put money above God.
This is a good example and I can't imagine why anyone who truly loves Jesus would not want to keep His commandments because Jesus asked out of His own mouth- if you love Me, you will keep My commandments. John 14:15 John 15:10
Do you remember the story of the man who has lots of good crops and so decides to build a bigger Barn? He could easily have been obeying the letter of the law. But God calls him a fool.
Can you quote the scripture please
I think that one of the purposes of the law was to prepare Israel to receive the Messiah. It conforms the outward part of a person.
I think the purpose of the law is to prepare all of us for Heaven, where we will still have free will, but there will be no more sin. God's laws are the essence of His character and the law helps us to be more like Christ which is what the scriptures teach we should be like 1 Corinthians 11:1-2, John 8:12
1. It establishes what sin is: Romans 7:7
2. The law is holy and good Romans 7:12 like God Luke 18:19 Isaiah 5:16
3. The law is Just Romans 7:12 Like God is Deuteronomy 32:4
4. The law is perfect Psalms 19:7 Like God is Perfect Mathew 5:48
5. The law is Love Romans 13:10 God is love 1 John 4:8
6. The law is Righteous Psalms 19:9 God is Righteous Exodus 9:27
7. The law is Truth Psalms 119:142 Psalms 119:151 God is Truth Deuteronomy 32:4
8.The laws are Pure Psalms 19:8 God is Pure I John 3:3
9. The laws are Spiritual Romans 7:14 God is Spiritual John 4:24
10. The laws are unchangeable Matthew 5:18 God is Unchangeable Malachi 3:6
11. The laws are eternal Psalms 111:7,8 God is eternal Genesis 21:33
But the Spirit inside of Christians changes them from the inside out.
Agree, this is what the New Covenant is about Hebrews 8:10 God writes His laws in our hearts. They didn't go away. We obey God because of our love and its the morally right thing to do to not sin and morally wrong thing to do when we sin (break God's laws). So we now keep God's commandment in the New Covenant not because He commanded us, because we have a changed heart. Jesus reinforces the laws are still valid when He said He did not come to destroy Gods laws. Mathew 5:17-20
God bless
Hi Freth, good to see you again.
Do you believe the Bible contains all of God's word?
Jesus talked about having more things to say to his disciples, but they couldn't bear them now.
Do you believe that when the last document in the New testament was written, Jesus had said everything he wanted to say?
If you believe that God spoke more after the new testament, where would we look to find those words, in your view?
What I'm hearing, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that no, the Bible does not contain all of God's word.Since creation God has worked through people to bring light into the world. His plan moves forward until the second coming. In every generation, chosen people carry forward His purpose.
The Holy Spirit moves upon the people and God's will is done in all manner of good works. It is impossible to compile a complete list of God's work in the world, written or otherwise.
The Bible is the word of God. The truth by which all things are weighed.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
What I'm hearing, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that no, the Bible does not contain all of God's word.
If that's what you're saying, then cool! We agree on that.
God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Bible—all work in concert as truth. By the Holy Spirit we receive discernment and by rightly dividing the word of truth, we can understand what works are truly inspired of God or not. By their fruits you will know them.
I think I agree with the thrust of what you're saying.God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Bible—all work in concert as truth. By the Holy Spirit we receive discernment and by rightly dividing the word of truth, we can understand what works are truly inspired of God or not. By their fruits you will know them.
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