Religious intolerance :(

basically people just need to stop thinking that ONLY they represent the ULTIMATE TRUTH.... that's so far from REALITY it's not even funny.

Snowbunny said:

for those who can say this was no fault of their own, we (Catholics) believe God holds them no more responsible for the repurcussions than a child... in a way they are in a state of permanent childhood, never able to progress further with their gifts (though they are present).

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Thanks for your reply. However this only answers what happens to them after they die. The answer I am looking for is why does god create them with all these disabilities/diseases in the first place? Why many of them have to live a long life of suffering?

Snowbunny said:

the important thing to remember is that even though their ability to choose their own way is inhibited... they are still guided by God and God still has a plan for them.

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Could you please explain it further? how are they guided? What kind of plan does god have?

Snowbunny said:

i do not know what your specific life is like, but i have heard stories of people who experienced great suffering and were drawn closer to God on account of it... i
also know the things that have happened to me, and the impacts they have had on me, and that despite them i still believe.

in short... this is something between you and God. all i can say is that i think it is better to talk to Him about it, rather than turn away from Him entirely and believe He does not exist.

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Its true that most people turn to god in suffering. Most people I have seen think they are suffering because some god or gods are angry. They pray more to please the gods.

Snowbunny said:

i think the difference between our opinions here is that i believe God allows diversity on account of creating free will for us... i believe we have authored these other religions using our free will... i do not believe God authored them.

que Dios te bendiga

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I don't intend disrespect but do you really believe catholicism is the only religion authored by god? I am assuming this because you are a catholic and you said 'we have authored these other religions...'. It is fine with me but why didn't god make it more widespread? also, why did it not exist since the beginning of human life? again, I am not trying to say your religion is true or false but as an outsider, these are the questions that immediately come to mind and apply to every religion.

universalmessenger said:

lol. ur post was funny. everything u said makes my point. everybody interprets life in their own (individual) way.

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why do you think it was funny?

ty kunabi. i like all ur points. it's funny to me when someone makes a posts with a whole bunch of religious notions that don't really pertain to reality then someone else delivers another posts that hits all the points to knock down the first person's arugment... but the first person hasn't realized it yet. it's funny as in ironic.... not hehe funny. like elijah earlier. he kept rambling on and i was just giving him the floor so he could make a fool out of himself bc he was being very vain and hostile toward me and others. then after i had had enuf i shut him down. he just stuck his tail in between his legs and left. it was fun for me.

i can't stand that arrogance that peach was referring to earlier in this thread. it's crazy. the majority of the time. they arrogant. loud. and wrong. that's what seals the deal for me. then i'm like i'm taking u down! but i'm gonna do it on the sneak tip. i'm gonna watch u spout and run ur mouth for a min b4 i hand it to 'em. czach is like that too. don't let him try to tell u any different. lol.

czach is probably the only person i would not go toe to toe with. please. mama didn't raise no fool!!! lol.

on a serious note. we rarely disagree so no reason for it. but he still likes to win debates.

kunabi said:

Thanks for your reply. However this only answers what happens to them after they die. The answer I am looking for is why does god create them with all these disabilities/diseases in the first place? Why many of them have to live a long life of suffering?

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hola kunabi,

truthfully i do not know why God creates people with lifelong diseases or disabilities... but i believe God loves everybody and has a plan for every person. even though society undervalues people with mental disabilities or people who are not able to move, God does not undervalue these people. they are His children and He loves them the same. in my beliefs that is all that matters.

Could you please explain it further? how are they guided? What kind of plan does god have?

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in Jeremiah it says (paraphrasing) that we must not give up, because God knows what plans He has for us plans to prosper us and not harm us, and to give us a future and hope. although speaking at that time directly to the jewish people the Catholic Church has always taught that this is for all people. so we believe God has plans for everyone... i do not know what those plans are but i know they are of the 'good' and 'hopeful' kind.

Its true that most people turn to god in suffering. Most people I have seen think they are suffering because some god or gods are angry. They pray more to please the gods.

Click to expand...

i think it is wrong to automatically assume suffering is a punishment from God... we know God tests our faith like a parent tests the confidence of their child... through a controlled ordeal. just like a child it can seem cruel, traumatic and horrible at the time... when my father first let go of the bike i went fifteen feet, fell down and hurt my knee... then i screamed at him asking why he did that. i understand now...

sometimes it is neither a test nor a punishment... people have the ability to use their free will to bring evil into the world. Adam did this when he brought death into the garden... as a consequence of God honoring the integrity of His gift of free will, people can do horrible things both to God and to other people. above all this saddens God because it turns a gift into a curse. this is why He has given us commandments and beatitudes to shown us what must be done to avoid sin. again we must trust He is with us.

I don't intend disrespect but do you really believe catholicism is the only religion authored by god? I am assuming this because you are a catholic and you said 'we have authored these other religions...'. It is fine with me but why didn't god make it more widespread? also, why did it not exist since the beginning of human life? again, I am not trying to say your religion is true or false but as an outsider, these are the questions that immediately come to mind and apply to every religion.

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si, i believe there is only one way, through the Catholic Church. i do not really believe that this experience culminating in the Church is a 'religion' in the conventional sense... there was a time in which there was no Church... and before that there was a time when there were no prophets. as humanity and the world mature i think we can perceive that God is like my father with my bike. in the beginning He stayed with us and directly guided us... interacting with us directly, like in the Garden of Eden when Adam spoke to God regularly... as time progressed He began to give us direct guidance, but He allowed us to investigate the world for ourselves with a little more freedom... prophets came and delivered direct messages from God, but instead of God directly commanding us, we were given the choice to listen or not listen...

today we have reached a point where God has let go of the handle bars and allows us to peddle for ourselves... using everything He taught us and knowing that He is always close by in case we fall over. that step is the Church... the institution of God, but ministered by men. He guides the Church and the Church serves Him... but this is fundamentally different than the level of guidance and control experienced by men in the beginning.

so i think in a very real sense it has always been with us since the beginning... instead of a 'religion' think of this as a conversation with God that has been ongoing for centuries... the Catholic Church today is (again in my beliefs) the present realization of this conversation... that will not be so forever, we are promised this in Revelations.

i also believe that this is universal (widespread). while it is true not everybody might have seen the Church or heard the Word of God, we believe there is always some fundamental understanding of God in people... anybody who follows that instinct, or whatever God provided for them and did not have the opportunity to experience the more sophistocated developments is protected by what we call 'invincible ignorance.' why God chooses to allow some people the opportunity to experience the fullness of His message, and others are not so fortunate is not something i know... again i think it is inconsequential since God has plans for all people and we are promised they are good and hopeful plans.

que Dios te bendiga

czach8 said:

The greatest aspect of Lao Tzu's work is that his scripture can be added to any religion. In other words, you can be a Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, etc to simply relate to these ancient Chinese scriptures. According to the Universal Way, God does not negelect nor discrimate any life being based on culture, color, race, and even religion for that matter.

Hua Hu Ching Chp 31 says, "God doesn't come and go. It is always present everywhere, just like the sky. If your mind is clouded, you won't see it, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. All misery is created by the activity of the mind. Can you let go of words and ideas, attitudes and expectations? If so, then the Tao will loom into view. Can you be still and look inside? If so, then you will see that the truth is always available, always responsive."



The biggest misconception religious partisan adherents commit is believing God has a specific form and name. Muslims do believe God is formless, but even they cling to the words "Islam" and "Muhammad" to prove their points. They just do not have the capacity to let go of such mental concepts, and transcend into the true nature of God. For instance:

Hua Hu Ching chp 22 says, "How can the divine Oneness be seen? Only in beautiful forms, breathtaking wonders, and awe-inspiring miracles? The Tao is obliged to present itself in deep ways, but people only see the surfaces. It is always present and always available. When speech is exhausted and mind dissolved, it presents itself. When clarity and purity are cultivated, it reveals itself. When sincerity is unconditional, it unveils itself. If you are willing to be lived by it, you will see it everywhere, even in the most ordinary things.

The bible clearly complements the above verses. Check it out sister.

Genesis 1:12, "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."



I do read the I Ching for guidance and references, but I never dare use it as a form of divination. Unfortunately, people use the I Ching for this purpose which was not meant to be 3000 years ago when it was first written.

Peace and God bless.

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BEAUTIFUL

czach8 said:

I do read the I Ching for guidance and references, but I never dare use it as a form of divination. Unfortunately, people use the I Ching for this purpose which was not meant to be 3000 years ago when it was first written.

Peace and God bless.

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in my personal opinion, there is nothing wrong with using it for divination... but again this is ANOTHER RELIGION that "i just couldn't get into" 4 whatever reason.... GOD just didn't want it like that, for me, i guess.... as i told u b4, nothing I KNOW is "learned" from much else other then the NIV Bible and personal Revelations from GOD... it's just revealed from within.... yet my beliefs equals those of the most truly enlightened philosophers of our time...ur right, religious doctrines are LIMITED....if only most other people knew this, and tried to discover the real truth "within"....

aha, i digress, we can dream can't we???

universalmessenger said:

exactly. ty. NOTW

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u've been inducted into the hall of wisdom

Originally Posted by Snowbunny
God has given everybody the gifts of sentience (self awareness) and free will. because of these people do have the capability to make their own way through life.


The gift of "self awareness: does not imply that one has to follow GOD, as u claim. this infringes upon freewill. in fact, it means exactly how u defined it up above and what i just stated: "Everybody interprets life in their own way...." that's sentience. defined: (State of elementary or undifferentiated consciousness, The faculty through which the external world is apprehended, the readiness to perceive sensations; elementary or undifferentiated consciousness). this IS the subconscious and conscious mind that u speak of.

(subconscious defined: Just below the level of consciousness; Psychic activity just below the level of awareness)

(conscious defined: Intentionally conceived, Knowing and perceiving; having awareness of surroundings and sensations and thoughts, (followed by 'of') showing realization or recognition of something)

(mind defined: That which is responsible for one's thoughts and feelings, the seat of the faculty of reason (SENTIENCE), An opinion formed by judging something, Knowledge and intellectual ability's)

this in fact, does exist in every human being- through DIVINE CREATION.... so that everyone can interpret life through his or her own standards. a.k.a freewill. if GOD intended to have all of humanity to simply take ONE ROUTE in LIFE, in regards to our faith, then that takes away our ability to make choices about our beliefs. there would be no purpose for thoughts, our emotions, or our choices. PERIOD. bc that choice would've already been DECIDED for us. this rule even applies to stillborn babies (for the child was alive and fully conscious within the womb) or comatose patients. after they've "reemerged" from a state of unconsciousness, often times, they proclaim that their subconscious mind was fully aware or partially aware of their surroundings the entire time... i've never experienced this personally myself so idk. but it does make sense, to me, for we are all blessed with self-awareness. brain dead victims, however, are like stillborn children.

UNDERSTANDING BRAIN DEATH

When someone is brain dead, it means there is no blood flow or oxygen to their brain and that their brain is no longer functioning in any capacity and never will again. It does not mean that other organs, such as the heart, kidneys or liver, are dead, although they may function for only a few days. Unless damaged by injury or disease, these organs may be used by another individual through an organ transplant..... Once the patient is brain dead, he or she is already dead. The brain will never recover. Since the patient is already dead, you cannot kill him or her by removing respiratory support. The respiratory support equipment only keeps the heart beating, which gives the appearance that your family member is living.

i do not want to offend anybody with this comment, but basically, brain dead victims are simply the dead on life support. we were all, initially created, by divine authorities, with self-awareness (the subconscious and the conscious mind) but once our brains, therein lies the mind, cease to exist then so do we.

isn't it ironic??? when beliefs don't coincide with another's people assume the opposition is wrong! then attempt to force their own personal beliefs on others. and everybody insists that their "way" is the ONLY ONE WAY to GOD. and we are criticized if we see any differently..... yet once the innate gift>>>the ability to interpret life in our OWN way >>>SENTIENCE is destroyed then SO are we. i think GOD's trying to tell us something here:

....if GOD intended to have all of humanity to simply take ONE ROUTE in LIFE, in regards to our faith, then that takes away our ability to make choices about our beliefs. there would be no purpose for thoughts, our emotions, or our choices. PERIOD..... [IN SHORT, THERE IS NO PURPOSE FOR LIFE IF WE DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY OR THE FREEDOM- TO PICK AND CHOOSE OUR OWN PATH]

so yes, SELF-AWARENESS does exist in every human being in LIFE.... yet that does NOT mean GOD exists for everyone.

i also believe that this is universal (widespread). while it is true not everybody might have seen the Church or heard the Word of God, we believe there is always some fundamental understanding of God in people...

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Hi. Even the American Indians had a knowledge of God but they saw Him as Spirit or even Spirits.
I love some of the Indian prayers along with some of the prayers by other religions, though my focus is on the Word of JESUS in the Bible.
In fact I found it uncanny that this prayer by them matches this passage in the Hebrew OT.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Ezekiel 37:9 Also He saying to me, "Prophesy! to the breath/07307 ruwach. Prophesy!, son of 'adam, and you say to the breath/07307 ruwach, 'Thus He says the Lord of me, YHWH: "From Four of Winds/07307 ruwach, come! the breath/07307 ruwach, and breathe/blow/05301 naphach in the ones slain, the-these and they shall live." ' "

http://www.indians.org/welker/greatspi.htm

"Oh, Great Spirit, whose voice I hear in the wind,

Whose breath gives life to all the world.

Hear me; I need your strength and wisdom.

O Great Spirit of the North, who gives wings to the waters of the air and rolls the thick snowstorm before Thee, Who covers the Earth with a sparkling crystal carpet above whose deep tranquillity every sound is beautiful. Temper us with strength to withstand the biting blizzards, yet make us thankful for the beauty which follows and lies deep over the warm Earth in its wake.

O Great Spirit of the East, the land of the rising Sun, Who holds in Your right hand the years of our lives and in Your left the opportunities of each day. Brace us that we may not neglect our gifts nor lose in laziness the hopes of each day and the hopes of each year.

O Great Spirit of the South, whose warm breath of compassion melts the ice that gathers round our hearts, whose fragrance speaks of distant springs and summer days, dissolve our fears, melt our hatreds, kindle our love into flames of true and living realities. Teach us that he who is truly strong is also kind, he who is wise tempers justice with mercy, he who is truly brave matches courage with compassion.

O Great Spirit of the West, the land of the setting Sun, with Your soaring mountains and free, wide rolling prairies, bless us with knowledge of the peace which follows purity of striving and the freedom which follows like a flowing robe in the winds of a well-disciplined life. Teach us that the end is better than the beginning and that the setting sun glorifies not in vain.

O Great Spirit of the heavens, in the day's infinite blue and amid the countless stars of the night season, remind us that you are vast, that you are beautiful and majestic beyond all of our knowing or telling, but also that you are no further from us than the tilting upwards of our heads and the raising of our eyes.

kunabi said:

I don't intend disrespect but do you really believe catholicism is the only religion authored by god? I am assuming this because you are a catholic and you said 'we have authored these other religions...'. It is fine with me but why didn't god make it more widespread? also, why did it not exist since the beginning of human life? again, I am not trying to say your religion is true or false but as an outsider, these are the questions that immediately come to mind and apply to every religion.

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It is a combination of discrimination, narrow-mindedness, and ignorance. It is NOT derived from true divine wisdom, enlightenment, or spiritual growth. In fact, it's just the opposite. Often times, people mistake man-made ordinances, which promote division and a false sense of superiority among our brothers and sisters, as divine decrees from heaven, as true revelations from GOD..... but this is not the case because the LORD does NOT play FAVORITES!!! TRUE DIVINE WISDOM is just the opposite. TRUE DIVINE WISDOM is NOT hindered by mankind’s faulty judgment or any of religion's superficial restrictions.....

IF GOD IS INFALLIBLE, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT, AND OMNIPRESENT THEN WOULDN'T THE LORD'S TRUE WORDS (a.k.a. DIVINE WISDOM) ALSO FIT THAT DESCRIPTION???

so if the LORD is infallible y would GOD hate lesbians and gays or other minorities??? after all they are ALL HIS creation... The LORD couldn't have messed up somewhere.

if GOD is omniscient y would GOD hate other religions since they all represent HIS wisdom???

if GOD is omnipotent y would the LORD tell u to fear Satan???

if GOD is omnipresent y would the LORD not be within all of us???

kunabi said:

Thanks for your reply. However this only answers what happens to them after they die. The answer I am looking for is why does god create them with all these disabilities/diseases in the first place? Why many of them have to live a long life of suffering?

Could you please explain it further? how are they guided? What kind of plan does god have?

Its true that most people turn to god in suffering. Most people I have seen think they are suffering because some god or gods are angry. They pray more to please the gods.

Click to expand...

in my personal opinion life is truly a learning experience that leads to spiritual growth. therefore we choose certain experiences to face in life in order to help us reach that goal.

take celebrities for instance.... have u ever noticed they tend to be the most jacked up people on earth. emotionally and mentally, i mean. yet they r in the spot light constantly for the world to see. i think celebrities make some of the biggest sacrifices in heaven bc rarely do they ever evolve spiritually here on earth (and this sucks no matter how rich u are) but yet they choose to b famous... a constant theme in Hollywood is that the fame, fortune, glitz and glamor often leads to drugs, infidelity, betrayal, and abuse. ultimately, unhappiness. so while it is glorified one min the next min these things r attributed to mankind's downfall....... celebrities make examples out of themselves so that others can turn away from making the same mistakes in their own personal lives, i think. they have the power of influence. we've all watched someone on TV (Michael Jackson, Paris Hilton etc.) act a complete donkey in front of the cameras then we'll say to ourselves, "I'll Never do anything like that.... or I'm glad that wasn't me.....or what were they thinking!!! etc."

the saying goes, "is it worth it, to gain the whole world only to lose ur soul..." through their overindulgent lifestyles and insatiable appetites for worldly pleasures they only gain material possessions yet they seriously lack spiritual growth and development... i think this serves as a message to the rest of society to focus on the things that r within. that's where u will find the TRUE SOURCE of HAPPINESS.

Snowbunny said:

hola kunabi,

truthfully i do not know why God creates people with lifelong diseases or disabilities...

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This is one answer I have been looking for quite some time now.

Snowbunny said:

but i believe God loves everybody and has a plan for every person. even though society undervalues people with mental disabilities or people who are not able to move, God does not undervalue these people. they are His children and He loves them the same. in my beliefs that is all that matters.

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I don't know why you believe it. I have only seen him play favorites.

Snowbunny said:

i think it is wrong to automatically assume suffering is a punishment from God... we know God tests our faith like a parent tests the confidence of their child... through a controlled ordeal.

Click to expand...

I have seen some uncontrolled ordeals which makes me have the doubts I have...again its the difference in our view but looks like none of us have concrete answers.

Snowbunny said:

just like a child it can seem cruel, traumatic and horrible at the time... when my father first let go of the bike i went fifteen feet, fell down and hurt my knee... then i screamed at him asking why he did that. i understand now...

Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying but sometimes god puts his children in a bicycle race but doesn't give them legs..that's when the doubts about him arise.

Snowbunny said:

sometimes it is neither a test nor a punishment... people have the ability to use their free will to bring evil into the world. Adam did this when he brought death into the garden... as a consequence of God honoring the integrity of His gift of free will, people can do horrible things both to God and to other people. above all this saddens God because it turns a gift into a curse. this is why He has given us commandments and beatitudes to shown us what must be done to avoid sin. again we must trust He is with us.

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I don't mean to disrespect your beliefs but as a person coming from a non-abrahamic background, the Adam and Eve story doesn't make much sense.

universalmessenger said:

in my personal opinion life is truly a learning experience that leads to spiritual growth.

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I agree with the first part but I doubt if it always leads to spiritual growth.

universalmessenger said:

take celebrities for instance.... have u ever noticed they tend to be the most jacked up people on earth. emotionally and mentally, i mean. yet they r in the spot light constantly for the world to see. i think celebrities make some of the biggest sacrifices in heaven bc rarely do they ever evolve spiritually here on earth (and this sucks no matter how rich u are) but yet they choose to b famous... a constant theme in Hollywood is that the fame, fortune, glitz and glamor often leads to drugs, infidelity, betrayal, and abuse. ultimately, unhappiness. so while it is glorified one min the next min these things r attributed to mankind's downfall....... celebrities make examples out of themselves so that others can turn away from making the same mistakes in their own personal lives, i think. we've all watched someone on TV (Michael Jackson, Paris Hilton etc.) act a complete donkey in front of the cameras then we'll say to ourselves, "I'll Never do anything like that.... or I'm glad that wasn't me.....or what were they thinking!!! etc."

the saying goes, "is it worth it, to gain the whole world only to lose ur soul..." through their overindulgent lifestyles and insatiable appetites for worldly pleasures they only gain material possessions yet they seriously lack spiritual growth and development... i think this serves as a message to the rest of society to focus on the things that r within. that's where u will find the TRUE SOURCE of HAPPINESS.

Click to expand...

If you mean they are looking for happiness in wrong place, you are correct to some extent However, I do believe that there are many who cherish what they do more than the fame/prosperity it brings. If you think of it, isn't majority of the society looking for happiness in wrong places?

kunabi said:

I agree with the first part but I doubt if it always leads to spiritual growth.

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well no one gets it right the first time around. i believe in reincarnation.

kunabi said:

If you mean they are looking for happiness in wrong place, you are correct to some extent However, I do believe that there are many who cherish what they do more than the fame/prosperity it brings. If you think of it, isn't majority of the society looking for happiness in wrong places?

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in comparison i personally feel it's the other way around. but that's debating over insignificant details. as far as the rest of society goes i'm undecided. i can only hope for the best.

kunabi said:

This is one answer I have been looking for quite some time now.

I don't know why you believe it. I have only seen him play favorites.

I have seen some uncontrolled ordeals which makes me have the doubts I have...again its the difference in our view but looks like none of us have concrete answers.

I understand what you are saying but sometimes god puts his children in a bicycle race but doesn't give them legs..that's when the doubts about him arise.

I don't mean to disrespect your beliefs but as a person coming from a non-abrahamic background, the Adam and Eve story doesn't make much sense.

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y do u think GOD plays favorites? i personally don't believe that. mankind just wishes that. and that Adam and eve story doesn't make much sense to me either. lol.

universalmessenger said:

y do u think GOD plays favorites? i personally don't believe that. mankind just wishes that. and that Adam and eve story doesn't make much sense to me either. lol.

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Actually, I doubt that god even exists. When I try to look from a believer's point of view, I don't see all love and happiness but disparate distribution of love, happiness and suffering with no apparent divine cause or purpose.