Religious intolerance :(

ChordatesLegacy said:

Amazingly I agree with a lot of what you have stated, but I have a few disagreements. Firstly: we humans stand along, yes I am a firm believer in hard work, and that we should strive for a better world. However, we get no help from God, if all humans decided to sit on our arses all day, then we would all starve. Secondly: humans are responsible for both our mistakes and our successes; hopefully we will learn from our mistakes and repeat our successes. Thirdly: I think Americana’s leaders make too much of prising the Lord. Being outside America perhaps its easier for me and other to see it for what it is, a gimmick, to keep the support of the foolish religious masses.

Lets be honest, Americans would never vote for a president who was anything other a practicing Christian, no matter how good a job he would do.

Without sounding to extreme, if the chose was between a Christian imbecile and a non Christian person of high calibre, Americans would vote for the imbecile. What I am saying is, being a avid Christian (even if it’s only a front) is a prerequisite for the presidents job

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hola ChordatesLegacy

gracias... i think the first and second disagreements with me are kind of a given since you do not believe in God and i do... so obviously you cannot attribute anything to something you do not believe. and i can no sooner convince you of the existance of God than i could convince you of the existance of leprauchans... many people need to see to believe, and that is something i respect since it is sincere and realistic.

but we can talk about the third!

i agree with you in part. americas public people today use God as a gimmick to get popular support... like paris hilton finding God in prison.

i think that with our political leaders it is either a disengenuous gimmick to get votes or (in some instances) something they truly believe but is still false. both i think are dangerous. i do not believe the president is correct when he tells us that God speaks to him and i do not believe the president has any right to tell us that his political agendas (especially the war) are God's will. i do not know if the president is disengenuous, but i do know that much of his work is neither inspired nor blessed by God.

but because of this disengenuousness on the part of our leaders and public figures i disagree with you that we praise God too much. i do not think we praise Him very much at all... praise is more than lipservice, and it is something directed to God... not a camera. paris hilton saying 'i found God and i am turning my life around' on larry king live for the benefit of restoring her public image is not praising God, i think it is the textbook definition of using God's name in vain which is blasphemy.

compare this political and social legacy to the legacy of the founding fathers, like john adams who wrote down in our constitution that we believe it is a self evident fact that all men had freedoms bestowed by God, and that the freedoms in the Constitution were from God... not the work of the men who fought in the revolution.

or for a more recent example compare to gerald ford's speech... he was not trying to win any election... he was not elected, he wanted to reassure the americans that their world was not over, and that the corruption of president nixon did not shake their foundations. so he reaffirmed that the things americans believe in:

My fellow Americans, our long national nightmare is over.

Our Constitution works; our great Republic is a government of laws and not of men. Here the people rule. But there is a higher Power, by whatever name we honor Him, who ordains not only righteousness but love, not only justice but mercy.

As we bind up the internal wounds of Watergate, more painful and more poisonous than those of foreign wars, let us restore the golden rule to our political process, and let brotherly love purge our hearts of suspicion and of hate

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i perceive sincerity in both the preamble to the constitution and in gerald ford's speech... sincerity that i (like you) do not see in today's social and political rhetoric. that sincerity is lost... and with it so is the validity of our public 'praise' to God. i do not think it matters what is said, the part that matters is what's meant and felt... that is absent.

incidentally the part i quoted from gerald fords' speech i think describes what i meant by believing in our own hard work and in God's grace... he acknowledges God carried us through with mercy and justice and then says it is up to us to restore the golden rule to our political proceses. he ends his speech "God helping me, I will not let you down" reinforcing personal responsibility and genuine piety.

que Dios te bendiga

elijah115 said:

I said "should not" for a reason, I didn't say "does not". If a person is not acting in accordance with what they profess to believe, then they are not really a good witness for God.

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let's take it back to the original post:

elijah115 said:

As Christian it's a capital sin to murder, rape, commit adultery etc. If everyone in Germany had real Christian moral virtues at the time as well as courage, with the particular exception of academic acumen, the Holocaust would not have happened. Whoever is in Christ should not have thoughts of racism, sexism, or any prejudice.

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u stated that the Holocaust would've never happened had the Germans had real Christian morals and values... bc, according to u, no Christians should have thoughts of racism, sexism, or any prejudice. that's y i said "maybe they shouldn't have those thoughts but they do [JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE]" That's the point i was making. how does being a Christian make u extra special??? to where GOD would only intervene on ur behalf and no one else??? it's almost as if ur saying GOD didn't protect them or rescue them bc they weren't Christians or something.... first ur implying that ONLY the Christian faith could've prevented that disaster. idk how??? but ok... secondly, ur implying that bc they lacked faith in Jesus Christ they fell victim to the Holocaust. and thirdly, ur implying that only true Christians have real morals and values. and this certainly is not the case either.

i think that with our political leaders it is either a disengenuous gimmick to get votes or (in some instances) something they truly believe but is still false. both i think are dangerous. i do not believe the president is correct when he tells us that God speaks to him

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Perhaps Bush should refrain from mixing Texas "tumbleweeds" in-to his salads

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLGzDw0FUb8

universalmessenger said:

let's take it back to the original post:



u stated that the Holocaust would've never happened had the Germans had real Christian morals and values... bc, according to u, no Christians should have thoughts of racism, sexism, or any prejudice. that's y i said "maybe they shouldn't have those thoughts but they do [JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE]" That's the point i was making. first u were implying that the Christian faith could've prevented that disaster. secondly, u were implying that bc they lacked faith in Jesus Christ they fell victim to the Holocaust, and thirdly, u were implying that only Christians have true morals and values. and this is not the case either.

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I was not implying "only christians"...... I was implying "christians"....... it's why I said "whoever is in Christ" ...... I also said "as well as courage" if you go back to read it again; and yes I do believe that if all the Germans did have proper Christian moral values including courage, the Holocaust would not have happened. Who is a christian?

" MT 12:48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

A real Christian is someone who believes and obeys what Christ taught. By obedience, in effect you will not murder. You said "shouldn't but do", just like that. How many real Christians do you know who murder? Where the world believes in survival of the fittest, Jesus says this:

"Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

If you think it is possible to really...... emphasis on really be a Christian and "murder or be racist" we'll have to burn the bible first in "May 10, 1933".

to me it still sounds like ur saying Christianity could've prevented the Holocaust. and i want to know how???


...Both Hitler and Hussein's claimed to be faithful adherents to their religion, i.e., Christianity and Islam. They twisted scriptures which served to their own destruction. As for a Biblical response to Hitler, "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book" (Rev.22:18). Hitler prophesied the Third Reich would be a millennium reign - an illusion to the millennium reign prophesied in Revelation chapter 20.

http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/essays/comp/cw30husseinhitler.htm

i want to know how??? logically speaking of course. bc Hitler thought he was serving GOD's purpose. or do u mean ideally speaking??? say if we were all created perfect, without flaws, and man was not possessed by hidden demons, or the obsession to rule, and we all followed the same faith and we all prayed to the same GOD, and we all thought the SAME WAY, and we all did everything according to THE SAME RULEBOOK..... THEN Christianity could've prevented the Holocaust??? if that's what u meant, yea i could see that.

universalmessenger said:

to me it still sounds like ur saying Christianity could've prevented the Holocaust. and i want to know how???


...Both Hitler and Hussein's claimed to be faithful adherents to their religion, i.e., Christianity and Islam. They twisted scriptures which served to their own destruction. As for a Biblical response to Hitler, "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book" (Rev.22:18). Hitler prophesied the Third Reich would be a millennium reign - an illusion to the millennium reign prophesied in Revelation chapter 20.

http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/essays/comp/cw30husseinhitler.htm

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That is a very lame argument. It's not to insult you but state a fact about your argument. You're on christianforums.com. Have I given you any impression that I am a mug that can convince with misquotes of the bible?

Jesus said this:

MT 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

What was Hitler's fruit? The Holocaust! Did Hitler love his enemies?

Jesus also said this:

JN 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Given that definition please explain to me how I am meant to think that Hitler was a faithful disciple of Jesus? Why would you use the bible like you are doing? You must know that it is an incredible tactic? But I suppose it's your perogative to do as you will and if you think, it proves something, I'd like to know what it is (apart from what I'm thinking). Are all white people christians? Are all arabs muslims? Are all chinese people mandarin? I'm not here to have pointless arguments with people.

universalmessenger said:

i want to know how??? logically speaking of course. bc Hitler thought he was serving GOD's purpose. or do u mean ideally speaking??? say if we were all created perfect, without flaws, and man was not possessed by hidden demons, or the obsession to rule, and we all followed the same faith and we all prayed to the same GOD and we all did everything according to THE SAME RULEBOOK..... THEN Christianity could've prevented the Holocaust??? if that's what u meant, yea i could see that.

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You don't want to know how? You're asking me a ridiculous question. I don't have an obligation to play games with you. I'm not answering that post.

God bless.

universalmessenger said:

to me it still sounds like ur saying Christianity could've prevented the Holocaust. and i want to know how???


...Both Hitler and Hussein's claimed to be faithful adherents to their religion, i.e., Christianity and Islam. They twisted scriptures which served to their own destruction. As for a Biblical response to Hitler, "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book" (Rev.22:18). Hitler prophesied the Third Reich would be a millennium reign - an illusion to the millennium reign prophesied in Revelation chapter 20.

http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/essays/comp/cw30husseinhitler.htm

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John 8:7 And when they continued asking Him, having bent Himself back, He said unto them, `The sinless of you--let him first cast the STONE at Her.8 And Again having stooped down, He was Writing on the Ground, [Daniel 5]

Appears to be a good old fashion "Stoning" of "hypocrits" here to me.

reve 16:21 and Hail, great as talent weight is descending out of the heaven up the men and blaspheme the men the God out of the stripes of the Hail, that great is the stripe of her, tremendous. [Isaiah 28]

i think u missed my point. u said Christianity could've prevented the Holocuast.... i was showing u that he used the Bible and Christianity to justify his actions for the Holocaust. whether or not U believe that he was a faithful Christian or not doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. i don't even believe he was a "faithful" Christian... but HE did. ur making the argument that Christianity could've prevented the Holocaust bc of it's morals and values. and i want to know how???.... bc NOT everybody is going to interpret the Bible and the faith the SAME WAY! and in their eyes they might even consider themselves "faithful" Christians. who r u to judge??? that was my point. Hitler used it to justify his actions.

universalmessenger said:

let's take it back to the original post:

u stated that the Holocaust would've never happened had the Germans had real Christian morals and values... bc, according to u, no Christians should have thoughts of racism, sexism, or any prejudice. that's y i said "maybe they shouldn't have those thoughts but they do [JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE]" That's the point i was making. how does being a Christian make u extra special??? to where GOD would only intervene on ur behalf and no one else??? it's almost as if ur saying GOD didn't protect them or rescue them bc they weren't Christians or something.... first ur implying that ONLY the Christian faith could've prevented that disaster. idk how??? but ok... secondly, ur implying that bc they lacked faith in Jesus Christ they fell victim to the Holocaust. and thirdly, ur implying that only true Christians have real morals and values. and this certainly is not the case either.

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universalmessenger said:

i want to know how??? logically speaking of course. bc Hitler thought he was serving GOD's purpose. or do u mean ideally speaking??? say if we were all created perfect, without flaws, and man was not possessed by hidden demons, or the obsession to rule, and we all followed the same faith and we all prayed to the same GOD, and we all thought the SAME WAY, and we all did everything according to THE SAME RULEBOOK..... THEN Christianity could've prevented the Holocaust??? if that's what u meant, yea i could see that.

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plz reread. u missed the point the first time.

universalmessenger said:

we all prayed to the same GOD and we all did everything according to THE SAME RULEBOOK..... THEN Christianity could've prevented the Holocaust??? if that's what u meant, yea i could see that.

plz reread. u missed the point the first time.

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Unfortunately, Christianity [early church writings- catholic vs protestant], Judaism [Talmud] and Islam [Koran] have different "rule books" outside of the Bible I think.

Matthew 24:21 for then shall be Tribulation/qliyiV/ <2347>, Great/megalh/ <3173>, such as was not from the beginning of world till now, no, nor may be becoming

Revelation 7:14 and I have said to Him, `Lord! of me, Thou hast known;'. And He said to me, `These are the ones coming out of The Tribulation/qliyewV/, The Great/megalhV/ <3173> , and they wash the robes of them, and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin;

there is no way Christianity in and of itself could've prevented the Holocaust. that was my point.

universalmessenger said:

there is no way Christianity in and of itself could've prevented the Holocaust. that was my point.

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I do not see how.
Back in Hitler's day, news traveled rather slowly, as there were no satellites, internet, cellphones and most of the time rumor probably couldn't be seperated from fact.
The main thing is, did we LEARN anything from it.
Just a humble view.

it's like the KKK using the Bible to justify racism.

universalmessenger said:

it's like the KKK using the Bible to justify racism.

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And also the Muslims to stone and execute people and "infidels" according to OT Law it seems.

some think the KKK is right some think it's wrong. ur view of a "faithful Christian" is NOT gonna b the same for everybody. regardless of who it is. so then how could Christianity, logically speaking, prevent the Holocaust???

universalmessenger said:

some think the KKK is right some think it's wrong. ur view of a "faithful Christian" is NOT gonna b the same for everybody. regardless of who it is. so then how could Christianity, logically speaking, prevent the Holocaust???

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By the same token, how could Christ-ians have prevented the "Holocaust" of first century Jerusalem?

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both Our Place and nation."

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison,..........

.......The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy........................

peter22 said:

I'm faintly disturbed at how intolerant *certain* Christians (and other faiths, but this is a Christian board, so that's my focus) are towards other beliefs. At least agnostics have the honesty to say, "I don't really know."

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Hear, hear. There is a great deal we don't know, nor do we need to for salvation.

You are seeing the difference between those who have deep faith and trust in God for all things including bringing others to know Him and those who believe that because they are Christian, they know better than everyone else.

Some Christians can be overzealous, this is most certainly true. It's just that the truth in Christ is such good stuff, they can't understand why anyone would resist it. We are supposed to be gentle as Christ was, but it is not easy, although we should all try harder.

universalmessenger said:

some think the KKK is right some think it's wrong. ur view of a "faithful Christian" is NOT gonna b the same for everybody. regardless of who it is. so then how could Christianity, logically speaking, prevent the Holocaust???

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What's logical about your argument? Imo, based on logic, you'd have to be an extremely ignorant person after those verses I showed you to think/believe Hitler was a christian. (Given that some people misuse ignorant, I qualify that: you'd have to be someone who knows absolutely nothing about what it means to be a christian and unwilling to learn to think that.) It's as incredible as those few muslims you come across who think if you're white you must be christian. It's no based on what Jesus said, just argument for the sake of promoting controversy. Next thing I expect you'll be asking a muslim to explain why someone who eats pork, doesn't believe in the "oneness" of Allah, doesn't believe in Allah, doesn't believe in angels or the afterlife isn't an adherent of islam, in a spirit of logic. I asked you a number of questions you haven't answered.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=36125015&postcount=67