What's the difference between Calvinism and fatalist philosophy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism
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Fatalism is the view that the human will doesn't matter, but the person is set on a course outside the control of his choices.What's the difference between Calvinism and fatalist philosophy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism
Plenty of people have accused Calvinism of meaning God initiates salvation, and not the person. Yes, God initiates and completes salvation in us. But to accuse Calvinism of fatalism as removing the involvement of people in their own salvation is absurd.
Therefore this Synod of Dordt in the name of the Lord pleads with all who devoutly call on the name of our Savior Jesus Christ to form their judgment about the faith of the Reformed churches, not on the basis of false accusations gathered from here or there, or even on the basis of the personal statements of a number of ancient and modern authorities
Catechisms are teaching tools. Do you suppose them now to be evil or useless because Reformed Presbyterians (as well as several other denominations) use them? You surely may not fault a system of doctrine itself for your misunderstanding of the purpose of a catechism.
There is nothing unbiblical about what you seem to base as an accusation against that preacher or the theology of Calvinism: "God shall judge the quick from the dead," is apparently from Acts 10:42, which says, "And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [COLOR=#00e0]to be[/COLOR] the Judge of quick and dead." His use of the words "elect" and "predestinated" are nothing more than synonyms for terms that already appear in clear Biblical language, as in Ephesians 1:5, which says, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." There are, of course, other synonyms, such as calling us "elect," the "church," the "saints," "brothers," "beloved," and so forth.
That is insulting.
But do you care that you mar the name of your brothers in Christ? Probably not.
Describing the Reformed Presbyterian church simultaneously as without life--what else could you mean but the life of the Spirit of God, right?--and as false--for you found a "real" church, better than that old fake one, right?--apparently comes to you without any difficulty.
And not a surprise, as this is such an easy slander to make and to feel obligated to support, that you would accuse this theology of being elitist, by saying that it somehow requires you to become elect first.
That is absurd; if you were shown that it is not true, would you even actually believe, or would you hold on to this accusation and hope it works on people who either are less discerning or already agree with you?
You try to counter it by offering the opposing perspective: "I came just as I was, and now I am saved." Allow me to correct at least one of your errors here.
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
Did you think you could see the kingdom of God before you were born again?
How can a person except as he is? And tell me, what were you, MercyBurst?
I won't even wait for you to answer, for Scripture speaks so very clearly. This is what you were, and what I was, and we all were, as said by Ephesians 2:3, "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." We were all by nature the children of wrath.
Yet how do you think you saw the kingdom of God? How do you think you saw your need for a Savior? How do you think you "got saved"? How do you think you were "born again"?
Two answers:
"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13).
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved" (Ephesians 2:5).
Answer number one: You were not born because you chose to be born.
Answer number two: You were not made alive because you chose to be made alive.
And a third answer, for free: You have been saved by grace.
Therefore, your accusation that being one of the elect somehow is opposed to "coming just as you are" (which is ambiguous in itself, but oddly loved so dearly by modern evangelical altar-callers) is dishonest and false.
By the way, you need not tag "Praise God" at the end of such declarations of contrast against your previous church experience in your effort to emphasize that Reformed Presbyterians are unable to praise God.
Okay, well good for you. I'm supposing you saw the word "Revised" and thought it was close enough to "Reformed" that you thought you could bring yet another accusation against Calvinists, not even understanding that they're not even remotely related.
Except for an R, two E's, and a D. But since this has absolutely nothing to do with your supposed "question" regarding fatalism, I can only agree with Beoga by drawing out what your thought process must have been when you posted here:
Step 1: Ask them a question.
Step 2: Forget the question and just tell them they're wrong.
Step 3: Keep guard under my bridge.
Well, that wasn't predictable. It's not like it happens every other day.
Um, no. Stay under your bridge, please.
Well, there are definitely people who do not receive God's call, but again ... Calvinism indeed has the universal call which not everyone answers.I believe God "offers" salvation for everyone, but not everyone accepts God's call. "Whosoever will may come", doesn't mean everyone comes, only those that choose to come. God makes His offer to everyone whether they take it or not.
It just doesn't answer the real statement in Scripture "God predesignated those He loved." They are people God's predesignating, not ideals. The rest I would largely agree with.Once they come and accept God's will over their own they are predestinated to God's original plan before the universe was created. God's original plan was for man to have fellowship with Him. Adam and Eve (created in perfection) had the option to make a wrong choice (which was sin), and the rest of us (born in sin) are given the option to make the right choice (which is everlasting life in Christ). THis was God's plan from the beginning (for man to have fellowship with God). God never intended for man to go to hell, which is reserved for the devil and his angels. But there is no other alternative for unredeemed humanity.
My information is first hand.
Well, there are definitely people who do not receive God's call, but again ... Calvinism indeed has the universal call which not everyone answers.
It's real. People will really be condemned for not answering this call (cf. John 3:18).
It just doesn't answer the real statement in Scripture "God predesignated those He loved." They are people God's predesignating, not ideals. The rest I would largely agree with.
So's mine. Within the church where I first believed it was largely accepted that whoever answers is saved -- and that's it. No further work or serious effort was made in changing or growing people after they'd been through the "thunk & dunk" of evangelism. Growth stopped. Conflict began. For outcasts like me, the "communion of the saints" was largely superficial. And I couldn't continue with them.
I don't doubt your experience in church, either.
The idea that we "don't have a message for the unelect" is exactly as ridiculous as a farmer claiming he can tell where the weeds will grow, so he won't plant there.
I have no questions about your election, either. Nobody has "elect" tattooed on their foreheads. And formal memorizing -- well, I've never been able to memorize Scripture, much less the catechism.
After my experience I was out of the church until I met real Christians -- lots of them, with real Christian hands for tackling real problems in this world. And I had real problems. And they gathered and worked. The result was remarkable. They were all talking about the work of the Spirit in their lives pressing out into the world -- and that they were compelled to follow. They were all connected with Westminster School in Augusta, Georgia. And they were Calvinists, and had no questions about election either.
I have yet not heard how those who don't like Calvnism explain how a spiritually dead person become alive?
They become spiritually alive by getting born again.
I shared my honest experience as a reformed presbyterian, and I am sorry that upsets you.
Perhaps it can help you and others understand how the "predestinated elect" preaching comes across to the unsaved. We feel that we can never be good enough to be saved.
We feel that we have to be elect before we can be saved.
Calvinism is poor public relations to those that want to reach Christ.
Calvinism stands in the door like a judgmental pharisee, and this really needs to change.[/COLOR][/B]
I have provided honest feedback, and perhaps it can help your denomination before it loses the other half of its remaining members. I hope so.
and Jesus said:
Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth
Aren't you glad I got saved?Apparantly not. But you really should be, regardless of what you think about me as a person.
God bless.
Choosing fishermen to be disciples is poor public relations. Calling the pharisees a brood of vipers is poor public relations. Turning tables over in the temple is poor public relations. The Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.
God has never been about public relations, nor about pleasing man, but about His own Glory, even if that seems foolish to men.
The Presbyterian Church (USA) lost 46,658 members during 2003 – higher than the projected downturn and the highest percentage loss in more than a quarter of a century.
The exodus reduced membership to 2,405,311 as of Dec. 31, 2003 – a loss of 1.85 million members since the PCUSA and its predecessor denominations had a peak membership of 4,254,597 in 1965.
It was more bad news statistically and financially for a denomination that has already reduced its headquarters staff in Louisville, Ky., from more than 700 employees to 494 to reduce the costs of its decline.
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