LewisWildermuth
Senior Veteran
vossler said:
Who says that they choose not to honor God? They might choose to honor God in a different way then what Vossler might like, but that would be far from choosing not to honor God.
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vossler said:No I wouldn't 'tar' scientists as atheists because they choose not to honor God.
LewisWildermuth said:Who says that they choose not to honor God? They might choose to honor God in a different way then what Vossler might like, but that would be far from choosing not to honor God.
Yes, I don't have much of an interest in studying science, but I do follow the news and what's going on, whether it is sports, science or anything else.-Mercury- said:Maybe it shows that you don't have much interest in science? I think you've said that openly quite a few times.
vossler said:Yes, I don't have much of an interest in studying science, but I do follow the news and what's going on, whether it is sports, science or anything else.
Christians in Science.vossler said:No I wouldn't 'tar' scientists as atheists because they choose not to honor God. Again, you and others wish to twist my words to say what you'd like them to say. I don't know why that is, but it's not for me to figure out, I simply gave an observation on what it could be, obviously only God knows. Here's what I see! Countless athletes, actors, musicians praise God, yet I haven't heard a single scientist do so. What does that say, only God really knows.
Forgive me, what point was that again?Again, you conveniently skip over my most important point and focus on a secondary observation. Why won't you comment on that point? Do you agree with it?
vossler said:Lady Kate,
I thought we had agreed to disagree. Now you're coming for seconds. What's up? Is there a stone we've left unturned that you've just got to have answered or is it just that you can't help yourself?
I didn't get to see anything that glorifies God. None of the publications that I saw were available for viewing. Maybe you could give me a direct link?Numenor said:Christians in Science.
Francis S Collins is the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute. Check out the list of his publications and you'll see all the ones he written about Science and Faith. Is this the kind of thing you're looking for or were you wanting the grandiose statement of faith at the top?
Why should science and religion (God specifically) be considered oil and water? God is the author of science and should be consulted and drawn into everything that is science, not treated as if He were a leper.Numenor said:Forgive me, what point was that again?
Fine we don't agree to even disagree.The Lady Kate said:We agreed on nothing... you "agreed to disagree" and then went into your "Scientists are Atheists because they don't praise God in public the way I'd like them to" argument.
I never agreed to disagree on that.
vossler said:Fine we don't agree to even disagree.
I didn't say all scientists were atheists, only most were.
According to a Gallup Poll only 10% of the national population have atheistic beliefs concerning our origins, yet 55% of scientists do, hence my word most when referring to scientists are atheists.
Did you miss under the heading Naturalistic Evolution the sub-heading:The Lady Kate said:Semantics.
And I don't see the word "atheism" in there anywhere... just a belief in naturalistic evolution. 55% of scientists polled believed that God did not direct evolution... not that there is no God.
More semantics? perhaps, but I wouldn't want to see anyone's words get twisted around... especially not the Poll's.
vossler said:Did you miss under the heading Naturalistic Evolution the sub-heading:
"Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process."
Sounds rather atheistic to me, but then again I could be wrong.
How many deistic evolutionists exist is anybodys guess, but I'd hardly think it to be statistically significant.chaoschristian said:It says, "God had no part in this process."
It does not say, "And there is no God."
The wording of the poll would allow a deistic evolutionist to answer in the affirmative.
It also allows an atheistic evolutionist to answer in the affirmative.
Does anyone have a link to the source for this? I'd like to take a look at the whole thing.
Why?vossler said:How many deistic evolutionists exist is anybodys guess, but I'd hardly think it to be statistically significant.
vossler said:Did you miss under the heading Naturalistic Evolution the sub-heading:
"Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process."
Sounds rather atheistic to me, but then again I could be wrong.
There was nothing in the Christians in Science site that you thought was glorifying to God? Did you you actually read any of it?vossler said:I didn't get to see anything that glorifies God. None of the publications that I saw were available for viewing. Maybe you could give me a direct link?
This has been explained to you umpteen times already. Being a Christian wont automatically make you a better scientist and wont give you more accurate results than if you were an athiest, anybody who thinks that has their theology horribly wrong. Being a Christian doesn't make me a better soccer player than David Beckham. But does aknowledging that fact mean that I am separating sport and religion? Of course not, I take my faith with me everywhere I go including the soccer field.Why should science and religion (God specifically) be considered oil and water? God is the author of science and should be consulted and drawn into everything that is science, not treated as if He were a leper.
Yes, still couldn't find it.Numenor said:There was nothing in the Christians in Science site that you thought was glorifying to God? Did you you actually read any of it?
After providing this and the following interviews I had high hopes to see a scientist who truly give glory to his Savior and maker. Unfortunately I was very disappointed.Numenor said:And since you seem to want everyone else to do the leg work for you, here's an interview with Francis S Collins. Interesting to note that despite all his achievements and his great learning, what were the most influential books on him? Books by CS Lewis and Mere Christianity more specifically.
There was a nice quote I enjoyed reading in the Christianity Today piece "When a scientist discovers something that no human knew before, but God didthat is both an occasion for scientific excitement and, for a believer, also an occasion for worship." After reading that I was encouraged, but unfortunately that was the highlight of the piece. The rest of the interview was rather bland and there certainly wasn't any glory and honor given to Jesus or God. Since Jesus wasn't mentioned and references to God were of the milk toast variety; I can't say I was very inspired.Numenor said:Edit: here's another interview with Christianity Today and one from PBS. good quote: "I'm not worried about God. I am worried about humans, because we have a long tradition of assuming greater importance for ourselves than we deserve."
Being a Christian should make you a better and more effective scientist.Numenor said:This has been explained to you umpteen times already. Being a Christian wont automatically make you a better scientist and wont give you more accurate results than if you were an athiest, anybody who thinks that has their theology horribly wrong. Being a Christian doesn't make me a better soccer player than David Beckham. But does aknowledging that fact mean that I am separating sport and religion? Of course not, I take my faith with me everywhere I go including the soccer field.
Well you couldn't have looked very hard. I'm beginning to think that like all Creationists you will not be convinced unless you see an unachievable amount of evidence.vossler said:Yes, still couldn't find it.
Aha now I know what you're expecting. You're expecting every Christian no matter aht walk of life to be shoving their faith down the throats of anyone who'll listen. I'm afraid we all know that that kind of witness is counter-productive in the long term.After providing this and the following interviews I had high hopes to see a scientist who truly give glory to his Savior and maker. Unfortunately I was very disappointed.
Define 'better and more effective' scientist. Should Christian scientists always be the ones who are making the big breakthroughs? If they aren't is that because they don't take their faith seriously?Being a Christian should make you a better and more effective scientist.
Frankly you are in no position to stand in judgement over the witness of the thousands upon thousands of Christian scientists the world over just because they do not live up to your expectations. I hope you use the same measuring rod against your own life. I hope you stand up at the end of your working day and tell everyone about the difference God has made in your life and about how God was made you a better worker.If being a Christian has a small influence on your life then maybe, just maybe his power, grace, mercy and majesty haven't been given free reign in your heart.
Why is it you and others wish to twist, distort and outright lie about what it is I'm saying. Could it be that what I'm saying is convicting?Numenor said:Aha now I know what you're expecting. You're expecting every Christian no matter aht walk of life to be shoving their faith down the throats of anyone who'll listen. I'm afraid we all know that that kind of witness is counter-productive in the long term.
How about a scientist who not only provides lip service to God, but earnestly seeks His guidance and direction in everything he does.Numenor said:Define 'better and more effective' scientist.
Since we're God's children and as our Father in heaven, yeah I think He wants us to make the breakthroughs. Then if we're not available he'll use others.Numenor said:Should Christian scientists always be the ones who are making the big breakthroughs?
If we're not, yes a possible reason is that we're not taking our faith and relationship with Him seriously.Numenor said:If they aren't is that because they don't take their faith seriously?
I'm not called to judge whether someone else is a believer or not. Each believer is called to do that themselves.Numenor said:Frankly you are in no position to stand in judgement over the witness of the thousands upon thousands of Christian scientists the world over just because they do not live up to your expectations. I hope you use the same measuring rod against your own life. I hope you stand up at the end of your working day and tell everyone about the difference God has made in your life and about how God was made you a better worker.
vossler said:Why is it you and others wish to twist, distort and outright lie about what it is I'm saying. Could it be that what I'm saying is convicting?
How about a scientist who not only provides lip service to God, but earnestly seeks His guidance and direction in everything he does.
Since we're God's children and as our Father in heaven, yeah I think He wants us to make the breakthroughs. Then if we're not available he'll use others.If we're not, yes a possible reason is that we're not taking our faith and relationship with Him seriously.
I'm not called to judge whether someone else is a believer or not. Each believer is called to do that themselves.
2 Corinthians 13:5 states:
"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"
I didn't judge anyone with my statement, I simply made an observation, that if Christ has a limited influence in your life quite possibly you haven't given Him full access to your heart.
If you wish to twist that statement in one of judgement and condemnation, I can't stop you. If you believe that statement to be not Christlike, I'd like you to show me via Scripture how it is. If so, I will repent.
If we're never to make any sort of judgements then how can we be discerning? Discernment by its very nature requires judgement.
I can refer you to Ephesians 4:1-3 which tells us how to act.
Therefore, I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"
Have you been displaying that toward me? I'll leave you to judge.
Yes the people where I work know that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. They know that it is only through Him that I can claim any victory and all that I am I am because of Him. Do I proclaim that each and everyday, yes. Maybe not always in words but in deeds and actions I most certainly try to live that out. I'm not always successful, but certainly more than I fail.
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