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Religion and Miracles

ragarth

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I'm an atheist, I have been a christian (Church of the Brethren), a wiccan, a shamanist, an agnostic (twice), and a practitioner of my own cobbled together belief. During all this time I witnessed what I believed to be miracles, they were proof to me that my beliefs were valid, however now that I look back upon them I realize that what was a miracle to me was nothing more than a natural occurance that I chose not to critically asses and define a cause for.

By it's very nature, faith is belief in something without proof. I will grant you that in my exploration of what faith is, I've had people give me alternate definitions, but by and large this is what faith is to most people, and it is the basis of religious belief. Religion without faith becomes empirical, and if it becomes empirical then it becomes the venue of science. Since no religion is the valid venue of science then religion must be predicated on faith.

Since religion is predicated on faith, and since faith is the belief of something without proof, then those who are religious accept the idea that some things can exist without any empirical trace and without any relationship to reality (defining reality to be that which is of the physical world covered by scientific inquiry). If this is the case, then it's silly to say that the application of faith as a means of belief is not applicable to other beliefs or as a method of explaining other phenoma.

If faith is accepted as a valid explanation of other phenomena, then since it is a catchall (anything can be believed in via faith, it has no checking mechanism to prevent such- children have faith in santa clause, christians have faith in god, wiccans have faith in magic, and victims of nigerian scams have faith in their nigerian princes), it represents an explanation off-cutting 'I don't know' as a statement for any event an individual cannot explain via material means.

If an individual cannot explain a phenomena, and if an individual accepts faith as a valid explanatory model, then that individual has nothing preventing them from applying faith as an explanation of a phenomena. If that phenomena happens to have beneficial properties for the individual, then that unexplained, beneficial phenomena can then be viewed as a miracle. ie: "It's a miracle that my dog Flufferbottom found his way home! Angels must have been guiding him."

If faith is used as an argument for belief in miracles, then further inquiry into that phenomena will be cut off since an explanation is already found that sufficiently answers the methodology of the phenomena to the individual. This precludes the potential for a rational or empirical answer to explain the phenomena and instead attributes supernatural status to it.

Ergo, what an individual terms to be a miracle, is quite readily the product of inadequate rational inquiry into a subject because you cannot discount the potential of unknown answers (in previous example, fluffy may know the town from being walked regularly, and driven about in a car, or animals may be able to navigate via landmarks such as angle and position of mountains, ergo fluffy could find his way home via explanations other than angels). However if faith is used as an explanation to headoff the potential for simply not knowing something, then you cut short the investigation for rational/empirical answers. Given this, the use of miracles to explain one's religion belief is flawed, because the idea of miracles is based upon the same flawed logic as used to explain religion.
 

ragarth

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So the fact that you never witnessed what you believe to be a miracle in your own life, means that no one else has?

Way to totally ignore my argument and latch onto a single background statement.

Can you prove to me the methodology behind a miracle? No, you can't, because a miracle by definition cannot be explained. If you can't explain the 'how' of something then the 'how' of it is unknown. If you don't know it, and if you're not omniscient, then you cannot know if another explanation exists. If you don't know that no other explanation can exist, then you cannot know that something is indeed a miracle. If you cannot know if something is indeed a miracle, then stating that something is a miracle is an unfounded assumption. If stating that something is a miracle is an unfounded assumption, then anything predicated on the idea of a miracle existing is relying upon an unproven premise.

Miracles are another form of god of the gaps argument- Your assuming something is supernatural simply because you don't have an answer to it. The tragedy in this is that you cannot know that there is indeed no answer to it, and so you cut off your inquiry for an explanation short and do yourself disservice by relying on the crux of god of the gaps explanations.

My reason for that initial paragraph was to show that I did at one time believe in miracles or their equivalents, from multiple religions. Now that I think about things much more rationally, all these things have rational explanations. There are no miracles in my life now, but at one time there were, so my experience is that what you think is a miracle is nothing more than inadequate inquiry into the phenomena.
 
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ragarth

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Relying on naturalistic evidence to prove a supernatural event is futile, since the supernatural, by definition, superceeds natural laws.

Anything that is real effects one of the 5 senses directly or indirectly and anything that effects one of the 5 senses either directly or indirectly is measurable via empirical means. Anything that is measurable via empirical means can be studied using the scientific method. Anything that can be studied using the scientific method is part of nature. Anything that is not part of nature is supernatural. Anything that is supernatural cannot be studied via the scientific method. Anything that cannot be studied via the scientific method is not measurable via empirical means. Anything that is not measurable via empirical means does not effect the 5 senses either directly or indirectly. Anything that does not effect the 5 senses either directly or indirectly is not real. Therefore anything supernatural is not real.
 
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gaara4158

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Relying on naturalistic evidence to prove a supernatural event is futile, since the supernatural, by definition, superceeds natural laws.
Just because you personally can't think of any natural explanation for an event, doesn't mean it was supernatural. I think what OP is saying is that miracles aren't events that supersede natural laws... they're just events that confound our understanding of nature. The definition of "miracle" is bordered by our ever-expanding knowledge of science.

In other words, the supernatural could easily just be the natural we don't know about.
 
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shinbits

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Anything that is real effects one of the 5 senses directly or indirectly and anything that effects one of the 5 senses either directly or indirectly is measurable via empirical means. Anything that is measurable via empirical means can be studied using the scientific method. Anything that can be studied using the scientific method is part of nature. Anything that is not part of nature is supernatural. Anything that is supernatural cannot be studied via the scientific method. Anything that cannot be studied via the scientific method is not measurable via empirical means. Anything that is not measurable via empirical means does not effect the 5 senses either directly or indirectly. Anything that does not effect the 5 senses either directly or indirectly is not real. Therefore anything supernatural is not real.
wrong. anything that is natural will affect one of the 5 senses, directly or indirectly. not so for the supernatural.
 
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shinbits

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Just because you personally can't think of any natural explanation for an event, doesn't mean it was supernatural. I think what OP is saying is that miracles aren't events that supersede natural laws... they're just events that confound our understanding of nature. The definition of "miracle" is bordered by our ever-expanding knowledge of science.

In other words, the supernatural could easily just be the natural we don't know about.
True. But if something trully supernatural does occur, it's not something that naturalistic methods can prove or disprove.
 
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Alunyel

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Put your finger on Rev 3;21 and ask to meet Him.. Let Him come... He will clear your mind of worldly noise for truth.


Blargle, nargle, flargle.

OP: Nice post.

It's ok, though, because apprently God lives "outside of reality".

There are more than 5 senses, and if nothing triggers any of them, then how would you even notice it?

The point the OP is making, if there's no evidence for something, yet you believe it anyway, that's faith. Faith, by definition, is belief in that which lacks evidence.

If you're going to believe in one thing that lacks evidence, then why wouldn't you believe in everything else that could possibly exist, that lacks evidence?
 
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ragarth

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Put your finger on Rev 3;21 and ask to meet Him.. Let Him come... He will clear your mind of worldly noise for truth.

I had something amusing here, but then realized that answering your statement is pointless because you are just preaching instead of rationally answering any of the questions or disproving any of the statements I made. Your post here is evidential of the point being made in my original post: Miracles require a suspension of critical thought to be believed in. They are fallacious because they are a god of the gaps argument.

Why don't you go back and answer my original post, instead of giving wooism.
 
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Hespera

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True. But if something trully supernatural does occur, it's not something that naturalistic methods can prove or disprove.


Why not? Try it some time. Nothing supernatural ever has occurred but hey, lots of people like to claim they are psychic and so on. Bring one on, lets see the stuff, and then decide what can or cant be proved.

SO FAR the utter fallure of anyone anywhere to ever be able to come up with an example of the supernatural is a pretty good argument for its non existence.

But unlike your basic theist who thinks he KNOWS, i have an open mind.

Lets see the stuff.
 
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ragarth

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wrong. anything that is natural will affect one of the 5 senses, directly or indirectly. not so for the supernatural.

The big bang left the background radiation, if the universe is cyclical, it left a mark on the CBR (The Herschell satallite will measure this), evolution has left it's mark in the fossil record and our DNA. Meteor impacts leave craters, and floods leave sediment layer evidence. All these events effect one of our 5 senses indirectly. Dog bites, cat licks, good cheesecake, language all effect our senses directly.

The supernatural, in contrast does not directly or indirectly effect any of the 5 senses by your own admission. If it does not leave a trace, has no effect, and is unhinged from the causality of our universe, then it does not exist. So by your own admission, the supernatural does not exist.
 
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Hespera

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The big bang left the background radiation, if the universe is cyclical, it left a mark on the CBR (The Herschell satallite will measure this), evolution has left it's mark in the fossil record and our DNA. Meteor impacts leave craters, and floods leave sediment layer evidence. All these events effect one of our 5 senses indirectly. Dog bites, cat licks, good cheesecake, language all effect our senses directly.

The supernatural, in contrast does not directly or indirectly effect any of the 5 senses by your own admission. If it does not leave a trace, has no effect, and is unhinged from the causality of our universe, then it does not exist. So by your own admission, the supernatural does not exist.

Science has the darndest time studying the non-existent!
 
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Washington

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As I see it, the trouble is that the religious have a personal commitment to, and stake in, the reality of the supernatural. Therefore any argument against it will ultimately end up in a, "I - c a n 't - h e a r - y o u" response. Which effectively gives them permission and peace of mind to claim that miracles do occur. It's a no-win situation for the rationalist because the supernaturalist is content in being irrational. Hardly unusual of course, but I do marvel at such purposeful splitting of the mind into two diametrically opposite ways of judging the world we live in.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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I like Hume's Maxim:

The plain consequence is (and it is a general maxim worthy of our attention), "That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish."

When anyone tells me that he saw a dead man restored to life, I immediately consider with myself whether it be more probable, that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates, should really have happened. I weigh the one miracle against the other; and according to superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle. If the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculous than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion.
 
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Hespera

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I like Hume's Maxim:

The plain consequence is (and it is a general maxim worthy of our attention), "That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish."

When anyone tells me that he saw a dead man restored to life, I immediately consider with myself whether it be more probable, that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates, should really have happened. I weigh the one miracle against the other; and according to superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle. If the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculous than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion.


ok! if the moon suddenly disappears i will say its a miracle I will believe it is a miracle; i will have faith that it was a miracle; it will have been a miracle. amen.
 
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