Relating to Jesus

believeume said:

I'd forget my head if it wasn't screwed on.

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Nice avatar, but I prefered Pepelepu. Don't forget to screw your head on, it's a (bless and do not curse) waking up with it on the wrong side of the bed.

believeume said:

Hmm pepe huh, ok ill put that back on.

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I am flattered beyond measure!

miknik5 said:

How about praying

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believeume said:

You just don't get it!

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Jesus does get it!

But not only religious gesture praying!!

And God relates >

"God resists the proud,
.But gives grace to the humble." (James 4:6)

believeume said:

You just don't get it!

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Oh I get it. And in fact I am not speaking empty words at all. In fact I can attest to it

Anguspure said:

And resting in Him. Don't forget our sabbath rest.

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Resting in HIM period

And not only on the Sabbath. Because there are those who do not know HIM and do not rest in His Sovereignty...so do what is good and refrain from doing what is not good

So on the Sabbath rest knowing that HE is in SOVEREIGN control and all things are under HIS SOVEREIGN control and that HIS SOVEREIGNTY over all things is not limited to only The Sabbath

com7fy8 said:

Jesus does get it!

But not only religious gesture praying!!

And God relates >

"God resists the proud,
.But gives grace to the humble." (James 4:6)

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Yes. And without faith it is impossible to please GOD for one would have to believe that HE IS and a rewarded to all who diligently seek HIM

believeume said:

I'm coming close to doing something real crazy, so please for your Gods sake be still.

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Don't you yet know the difference between what is good and what is not good?
Restrain your flesh and pray

And don't attribute to GOD what should not be attributed to GOD

believeume said:

How can Jesus relate to us poor sinners if he never sinned. He was only tempted at every point (Even tempted to Rape? Murder? Steal? Lie? What about Molesting children? Was he tempted into that, what about eating Human flesh? That's another sin he would have to be tempted in)

But temptation is not the same as sinning itself, so how does Jesus know how to save someone from sin if he never sinned. One could argue "That he can know because he didn't sin, when he was tempted."

But then Jesus still had to be tempted (But what does that mean to be tempted and not sin)

Is it to feel like sinning?
Or
Is it to think like sinning?

Does that mean Jesus felt or thought about sinning?

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I believe we are reminded by Paul in one of his Epistles that it is fallen Principalities and Powers we are fighting against, so it seems rational to assume that they would have left no stone unturned in plaguing Jesus with temptations and torments, even of the vilest and sickest nature.

However, there are temptations and temptations : some, such as heterosexual fornication, that we could easily succumb to since the objects of our desire put in our path can be of astonishing beauty and attractiveness, so much so, that within marriage, the copulation of the spouses is viewed spiritually by our faith as a kind of image of the love God has for us.

Other temptations would be more in the nature of attacks from which we would recoil in disgust, or in horror and anguish at the worst of them, far from feeling attracted by them. Spiritual writers assert that Jesus' spiritual trials would have been more agonizing than even his physical crucifixion ; although the full suffering of his crucifixion would presumably have comprised both his physical and his spiritual suffering. Nevertheless, it is interesting to ponder what almost overwhelming horror could have caused Jesus to sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane, a medical phenomenon which apparently can occur under extreme torture.

Those Principalities and Powers do have a lot of power they can exert over us, to the extent that we feel the guilt, for a brief period, for the wickedness they impose over our own thoughts, as if they were our own. If we ignore a warning by God about our commission of a very serious sin, we could forfeit God's protective grace and that angel/demon could overpower our own will. I've had such a warning in the past, and it's enough to scare the living daylights out of anyone with a conscience and some love in their heart. That can happen with a good conscience, in fact, notably during prayer, but not to the extent of feeling the real threat of being overwhelmed. On the contrary, it is much more brief, and occurs within a context of confidence in God's and our guardian angel's protection.

Jesus' torments and trials, because of his extraordinary strength, even as a human being like ourselves, must have been so terrible as to defy our even 'going there', i.e. thinking about their nature and what it must have been like for him - especially if they crowded him to the point where he felt he was being overwhelmed.

I should have commented of course that people will customarily be fighting against the much more subtle and hidden ruses of the demonic Principalities and Powers to create occasions of sin for us, to push in that direction and straight into it, when they can. And yet we have clergymen, today, who don't believe in the devil and his demonic host !

miknik5 said:

Resting in HIM period

And not only on the Sabbath. Because there are those who do not know HIM and do not rest in His Sovereignty...so do what is good and refrain from doing what is not good

So on the Sabbath rest knowing that HE is in SOVEREIGN control and all things are under HIS SOVEREIGN control and that HIS SOVEREIGNTY over all things is not limited to only The Sabbath

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I agree although my reference to the Sabbath refers to this passage:

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Our Sabbath rest is a rest from the works of the Law, a rest in His grace and has nothing to do with aparticular day of the week.

paul becke said:

I believe we are reminded by Paul in one of his Epistles that it is fallen Principalities and Powers we are fighting against, so it seems rational to assume that they would have left no stone unturned in plaguing Jesus with temptations and torments, even of the vilest and sickest nature.

However, there are temptations and temptations : some, such as heterosexual fornication, that we could easily succumb to since the objects of our desire put in our path can be of astonishing beauty and attractiveness, so much so, that within marriage, the copulation of the spouses is viewed spiritually by our faith as a kind of image of the love God has for us.

Other temptations would be more in the nature of attacks from which we would recoil in disgust, or in horror and anguish at the worst of them, far from feeling attracted by them. Spiritual writers assert that Jesus' spiritual trials would have been more agonizing than even his physical crucifixion ; although the full suffering of his crucifixion would presumably have comprised both his physical and his spiritual suffering. Nevertheless, it is interesting to ponder what almost overwhelming horror could have caused Jesus to sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane, a medical phenomenon which apparently can occur under extreme torture.

Those Principalities and Powers do have a lot of power they can exert over us, to the extent that we feel the guilt, for a brief period, for the wickedness they impose over our own thoughts, as if they were our own. If we ignore a warning by God about our commission of a very serious sin, we could forfeit God's protective grace and that angel/demon could overpower our own will. I've had such a warning in the past, and it's enough to scare the living daylights out of anyone with a conscience and some love in their heart. That can happen with a good conscience, in fact, notably during prayer, but not to the extent of feeling the real threat of being overwhelmed. On the contrary, it is much more brief, and occurs within a context of confidence in God's and our guardian angel's protection.

Jesus' torments and trials, because of his extraordinary strength, even as a human being like ourselves, must have been so terrible as to defy our even 'going there', i.e. thinking about their nature and what it must have been like for him - especially if they crowded him to the point where he felt he was being overwhelmed.

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Take into account Jesus hedge of protection of perhaps because of having the Holy Spirit in and with him, and how he may have flowed in that, with complete trust and total dependence on the Holy Spirit... In and of himself only being an empty vessel, himself having and being nothing, essentially, but with the Holy Spirit having, being full of everything... Also, his complete trust and total dependence, in the extreme, may mean that he also knew absolutely nothing, in and of himself, having emptied himself, and denied himself, in the extreme, but it was all the Holy Spirit from and by and of the Father in him...

All he knew, all he thought of and recalled, and/or also didn't think of or recall, at any given moment, being "all" the Holy Spirit and none of him, perhaps... In and of himself, existing only in the moment only, giving no thought whatsoever to or about the past or the future at all, in and of himself, when needing any of these, the Holy Spirit alone supplied at that time, in that moment of needing... Consider how Jesus may have got by "Forgetting those things which are or were behind" all of the time...

I suspect, that this was how it was, and, perhaps, at and near his final moments, it all coming back, like a flood, perhaps beginning to overwhelm him...

Maybe... Perhaps...

God Bless!

Anguspure said:

I agree although my reference to the Sabbath refers to this passage:

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Our Sabbath rest is a rest from the works of the Law, a rest in His grace and has nothing to do with aparticular day of the week.

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It also means to enter into and be a part of the day of God's rest, the thousand year reign of Christ, that's the meaning I believe of making every effort to enter into that rest (working to enter into and be a part of the Day of God's rest, Christ's thousand year reign)...

As far as it goes today, for those who work and have careers and professions and families that their raising especially, that are almost busy "all the time" and do not get to rest or take a break at all, like some of us do... It is especially important for those people to take a break, every seven days, or one day a week, to relax, to "stop and smell the roses" as the phrase goes... And to rest and relax in pleasurably and delightfully taking in the things of God also... Cause these people especially need this very much...

God Bless!

believeume said:

How can Jesus relate to us poor sinners if he never sinned. He was only tempted at every point (Even tempted to Rape? Murder? Steal? Lie? What about Molesting children? Was he tempted into that, what about eating Human flesh? That's another sin he would have to be tempted in)

But temptation is not the same as sinning itself, so how does Jesus know how to save someone from sin if he never sinned. One could argue "That he can know because he didn't sin, when he was tempted."

But then Jesus still had to be tempted (But what does that mean to be tempted and not sin)

Is it to feel like sinning?
Or
Is it to think like sinning?

Does that mean Jesus felt or thought about sinning?

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First let me just say this is a very valid question. I think many people struggle to understand who Jesus was. How he can be human and understand us, yet be God and perfect. We need for Jesus to be empathetic and enter into our pain, but at the same time we don't want to but the fate of our souls into the hands of yet another flawed all too human leader. So, I appreciate your question and assume you are sincere.

Now, I want to address both parts of your question. First, as to being tempted in every point. 1 John 2:16 states three kinds of temptations: Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. The Bible uses the idea of kinds in Genesis as well. God made the animals after their "kinds." Various species are represented within those kinds. I don't have to know about every breed of dog to know what a dog is. Jesus faced three temptations in the wilderness just after His baptism. Those three temptations represent those three kinds of temptations which we all face in one way or another. It is not necessary to face every variation of those kinds to understand the appeal of the temptation generally.

Secondly, as to where is the line between temptation and sin, temptation is a crossroad. It is that moment in time when we become aware of a choice, a moral choice. It is not about our feelings, although our feelings are usually what make us aware of the choice. We want something, but something holds us back. Our feelings tell us we have to make a choice, but the temptation is the crossroad. It is the point of decision. Do I go right? Do I go left? Do I take matters in my own hands, or do I wait and trust God?

Many people live there whole lives burdened by shame because their feelings continue to pull them toward sin, but it is not our feelings that are sinful, it is the choices we make. God does not want us to live burdened by shame. Jesus came to remove all that from us.

KatyC said:

Secondly, as to where is the line between temptation and sin, temptation is a crossroad. It is that moment in time when we become aware of a choice, a moral choice. It is not about our feelings, although our feelings are usually what make us aware of the choice. We want something, but something holds us back. Our feelings tell us we have to make a choice, but the temptation is the crossroad. It is the point of decision. Do I go right? Do I go left? Do I take matters in my own hands, or do I wait and trust God?

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My husband was reading over my shoulder and he does not think my answer was clear enough. Temptation is the point of decision. Sin is making the immoral choice. Sometimes that is a visible action. Sometimes it is an internal action, such as choosing to harbor bitterness, or refusing to adjust ones attitude, but sin always involves making a choice to move in a direction away from God. Is that better?

believeume said:

Don't feel bad about anything you said, that was really awesome.

Lots of snowballing, lol.

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It really was awesome...

I think that the canonical gospels do not answer this question. I think there Jesus is described as a mere man, with certain limited supernatural qualities due to His being the Son of God. Not really fully divine and fully human as later developed in Christianity. So when He's tempted, I would assume He was being tempted like any other human, no difference.

The pagans argued with the early church about the nature of Jesus, pointing out the passages in the gospels where Jesus seems to do things that God in the flesh shouldn't do: showed inappropriate emotions or possibly even commuted sinful acts.

If we take the NT epistles, a slightly different picture is painted. He's blameless, yet knows what it is to be tempted. He took the sin of men to the cross. I would think, perhaps, Him being fully divine, it is not unimaginable, that Jesus Christ was presented (or presented Himself) with every temptation that ever existed on earth. After all, He healed the dead and walked on water. Nothing is impossible. He didn't show it to people, it was between Him and God, after all. A small hint is the sweat of blood in Gethsemane. He really didn't want to go through all of that. That was temptation. But He never gave in to the temptation, never sinned and obeyed to the death and resurrection.

Having been tempted in all and every imaginable sin (perhaps an easy task for God in a limited human world), He could take all sin upon Himself. He proved He was an acceptable, perfect sacrifice.

And having obeyed God, completing redemption and ascending back to the right hand of the Father in heaven, He now REALLY knows what temptation is. He experienced it first-hand in the authentic physical setting of a human body in the human world.

Therefore, He's a perfect advocate for the saints now before the Father. He can say, "hey, I've been there, give them a break!"

Neogaia777 said:

Take into account Jesus hedge of protection of perhaps because of having the Holy Spirit in and with him, and how he may have flowed in that, with complete trust and total dependence on the Holy Spirit... In and of himself only being an empty vessel, himself having and being nothing, essentially, but with the Holy Spirit having, being full of everything... Also, his complete trust and total dependence, in the extreme, may mean that he also knew absolutely nothing, in and of himself, having emptied himself, and denied himself, in the extreme, but it was all the Holy Spirit from and by and of the Father in him...

All he knew, all he thought of and recalled, and/or also didn't think of or recall, at any given moment, being "all" the Holy Spirit and none of him, perhaps... In and of himself, existing only in the moment only, giving no thought whatsoever to or about the past or the future at all, in and of himself, when needing any of these, the Holy Spirit alone supplied at that time, in that moment of needing... Consider how Jesus may have got by "Forgetting those things which are or were behind" all of the time...

I suspect, that this was how it was, and, perhaps, at and near his final moments, it all coming back, like a flood, perhaps beginning to overwhelm him...

Maybe... Perhaps...

God Bless!

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A very thoughtful post, if I may say so. In one sense, what you say, at least speaks to my reason. However, when we speak of the persons of the Holy Trinity, we are speaking on the topic of the most profound mystery, aren't we, any significant understanding of which is closed to the analytical inteligence ? We are told, for example that while Jesus was living here among us on earth, despite that, he had never left his Father's side in heaven.

So, I suspect theologians might consider your references to advert to the total self-emptying of the incarnate Jesus (but does that mean a truly total self-emptying of his godhead prior to his physical death?), rather than Jesus in his godhead, as that Third Person of the Holy Trinity in heaven. Where in the one trinitarian God, does one Person stop and another Person start ? 'Philip (or was it Thomas ?), when you see me, you see the Father.' How do both those symbioses or identities of personhood come about ? The Jesus on earth and the Jesus in heaven ? The Father and Jesus ? And then, and then there is the Holy Spirit, whose role your post addresses.

'I think that the canonical gospels do not answer this question. I think there Jesus is described as a mere man, with certain limited supernatural qualities due to His being the Son of God. Not really fully divine and fully human as later developed in Christianity.'

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No. You miss the great glory of Christianity, which Jesus came to demonstrate. For quite a while after returning to the faith of my childhood, whenever I read or heard a passage in one of the Gospels, like you I saw Jesus as being presented as God, and not really as man. Or rather, you see it the opposite way ; as man, not really fully as God. But both are equally wrong. He really was somehow, both truly God and truly man.

What removed the veil from my eyes, to extraordinary effect, was a book by the Abbot Marmion, called Christ in his Mysteries. In this book, he made two points :

1) That when you read the Bible,. it is God, himself, talking to you personally, and
2) That, when Jesus was talking to the Samaritan woman by the well, he was tired. Physically tired. He must have had a very heavy workload that day. This is the man who spent all night in prayer, and then continued preaching and healing people, which latter works each drew strength from him.

In principle, he could have resorted to his divine nature, at any time and all the time, but, with perhaps the sole exception of the occasion when he raised the already putrefying body of his friend, Lazarus, from the dead, he only demonstrated his unambiguously-divine power in the company of seemingly his very closest Apostles, mostly Peter, James and John, I believe.

So, he really did feel our weaknesses, as well as our temptations ; his flesh and blood were not just there to mask his divinity, so that he could dodge it all when the going got tough. Oh, he could have, of course, but he chose not to, since it would have thwarted the very purpose of his incarnation.And besides, that, of course, was not and is not the nature of our infinitely-loving God. In fact, the marks on the Holy Shroud of Turin indicate rather that his crucifixion was cruelly bungled.

The nub of it is that Jesus demonstrated that, far from being a great, impassible monolith and martinet (though in a sense he must have been impassible in principle), he really was human. And that brings the whole of the Gospels t life for me, because I see so much humour in the situations that his 'monstrous', divine goodness and love resulted in.

One small example : the woman who surreptitiously touched his robe, and was instantly cured of an issue of blood. The crowd were pressing them on all sides, so when Jesus asked, 'Who touched me ?' Peter respectfully asked him how he could ask such a question ! I could imagine Peter just before that, when Jesus was looking the other way, looking at the other disciples there and rolling his eyes ! At least wanting to, especially if he was being bustled a little, himself, as seems likely.

And then there was Jesus' incredulity and exasperation that poor Philip didn't understand that he and the Father are one, the nature of the Holy Trinity not being definitively teased out until the first Council of the Church was convened a few centuries later. And that little 'contretemps', I believe, took place before the disciples received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Also, there is something about the upbeat, but still respectfully-plaintive, way that Philip and Thomas put their questions that tickles me, but they knew their Master well enough by then, and how he could be a bit testy ! 'The meaning of the phrase of Jesus : I am the Way, the Truth and the Life', doesn't exactly register instantly, doesn't scream off the page, does it ? I think that occurs in the same passage : John 14:6-10