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[Monksailor]

I understand the difficulties you are describing here and will include them in the prayers I have already offered up. This is a real problem in the body of Christ. Thank you for sharing that.

This is the whole crux of why I have been saying what I have from the start.

 

[Monksailor]

I get it.
A so-called "Divisive" person is someone who doesn't follow the crowd. Someone who is brave enough to say no, to set boundaries, to state their opinion.

Yes, sometimes this is true and somewhat of what I have been trying to say only in a church setting and the heart of their contention or differing perspective is grounded in God's Word, not their opinion. In that context, divisiveness arising out of them addressing the situation with God's Word and Truth, regardless of lack of tact or feely-good approach, should ultimately (if they submit to the Holy Spirit) have a constructive affect; one way or another.

I do not agree with the idea that one is correct in using their own, unfounded in a contextual understanding of God's Word, opinion, to say "No" to anything in the Christian Church. This would be like an ignorant person of astrology going to a symposium of world renowned astrologists trying to tell them that they were wrong, based solely upon their ignorance of astrology, opinions. If one wants to deviate from any established and grounded belief or practice they owe it to others, and more so to themselves, to have studied in detail that which they wish to contend with and find specific problems of which to address, and NOT just be disagreeing to disagree/rebel.

 

[Dave L]

Titus 3:
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope
of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those
who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things
are good and profitable to men.
9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law;
for they are unprofitable and useless.
10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

Heavenly Father, while it is still called Today, may this discussion forum be a place where reasonable people resolve all controversies, not perpetuate them. Let all who hear your voice today not harden their heart, as the rebellion in the wilderness. May the voice of any divisive one be silenced by your Holy Spirit. May your Spirit of Truth preside and prevail. And may your Name alone be glorified. Amen.

Truth is very divisive.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Truth is very divisive.

Indeed it is just look at Jesus earthly ministry and see how divisive He was as the way, the TRUTH and the life.

 

[Endeavourer]

Simple logic dictates that you DID.

If A=B and and B=C then A=C.
Jesus=Truth and Truth=Divisive then Jesus=Divisive.

Much harm to Jesus' little ones has been done by divisive people claiming they are acting in the pattern and authority of Jesus.

They claim to themselves the privilege of division and harshness because Jesus was angry when he overthrew the tables. Unfortunately, they are blind to their unfruitful behavior of darkness.

I know a ruling elder in the PCA church who quotes the portion of the verse "Be ye angry and sin not" as license for him to behave divisively and rudely when he thinks another person is not aligning with his way of seeing things "Biblically". He feels that verse means behaviors done in righteous anger are not sin.

The words "I never want to speak to you again" are quick on his lips, and he feels this is righteously so. Because, you know, Jesus got angry and of course, the overthrowing of the tables.....

 

[Endeavourer]

Truth is very divisive.

In my observation, Christ's body is more often divided by behaviors than it is by the truth.

 

[Monksailor]

Endeaveourer said, "Much harm to Jesus' little ones has been done by divisive people claiming they are acting in the pattern and authority of Jesus."

The FACT is that; Much harm to Jesus' little ones has been done by ALL different types of people claiming that they are acting in the pattern and authority of Jesus.

Your point is moot in that it differentiates a divisive person from others.

 

[Monksailor]

In my observation, Christ's body is more often divided by behaviors than it is by the truth.

That is probably because the serious, hard TRUTH of the Scriptures is glossed over or just plainly ignored in so many churches today. They go for what is agreeable, what tickles their ears, what is PROFITABLE, what is popular, what is a trend setter, what is politically correct, and so on.

 

[Endeavourer]

That is probably because the serious, hard TRUTH of the Scriptures is glossed over or just plainly ignored in so many churches today. They go for what is agreeable, what tickles their ears, what is PROFITABLE, what is popular, what is a trend setter, what is politically correct, and so on.

What tickles your ears, Monksailor? The notion that your church and your faith is special, and harder/plainer/more serious than others? That few people have the truth outside of your church? Or, harsh judgment of others who you feel are not quite correct as you are?

 

[Endeavourer]

Endeaveourer said, "Much harm to Jesus' little ones has been done by divisive people claiming they are acting in the pattern and authority of Jesus."

The FACT is that; Much harm to Jesus' little ones has been done by ALL different types of people claiming that they are acting in the pattern and authority of Jesus.

Your point is moot in that it differentiates a divisive person from others.

No, we are specifically speaking about divisive people. Specifically, many divisive people have done much harm thinking they were entitled to be divisive and thought that being so was doing good.

My comment does not contemplate a broadening of the subject.

 

[Monksailor]

No, we are specifically speaking about divisive people. Specifically, many divisive people have done much harm thinking they were entitled to be divisive and thought that being so was doing good.

My comment does not contemplate a broadening of the subject.

Yes, we are specifically speaking about divisive people. Your comment relative to "Jesus' children" is no different than saying divisive people breathe air or have a beating heart. By picking such a broad contemplation which applies to so many, many other people equally so you make your point moot. I can understand how one who has been hurt by such an atrocity can allow their feelings to blind them to objective reasoning, though. Destructive divisiveness IS WRONG and most divisiveness does have an evil intent. But there is a divisiveness which IS GOOD and divisiveness is not the sought end but usually the initial or arousal point needed to process to a better or constructive end.

A couple of examples are when a counselor is trying to help an addict break from his habit. One of the necessary things is to divide him from his peer group of fellow druggies with divisiveness. Sometimes even a Pastor may use this in order to wake up a uniformly complacent flock trying to arouse individual accountability in the end game.

 

[Endeavourer]

Frankly, Monksailor, I'm not following your points. Do you feel that running around here declaring everyone's points moot is divisive?

 

[George95]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has been moved from Controversial Christian Theology to Deeper Fellowship.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Monksailor]

Frankly, Monksailor, I'm not following your points. Do you feel that running around here declaring everyone's points moot is divisive?

I am so sorry you do not understand. I have tried my best to help you. Now that you have resorted to false accusations and putting words in my mouth you will just have to find out what I am trying to teach you the hard way cause I will not stand for your contempt.

 

[Oseas]

In my observation, Christ's body is more often divided by behaviors than it is by the truth.

That is probably because the serious, hard TRUTH of the Scriptures is glossed over or just plainly ignored in so many churches today. They go for what is agreeable, what tickles their ears, what is PROFITABLE, what is popular, what is a trend setter, what is politically correct, and so on.

Reading some posts above, we see many opinions, mere opnions. Opinion is opinion. What prevails is the Word of God. The Word is God.

Jude 1:v.19 - 19 These be they who separate(cause divisions)themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jude:1:v.1-25
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

NOTE: Reading of Matthew 24: v.1-8 is recommended.

GOD BLESS

 

[Monksailor]

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring [a] peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword! [b] 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household." [c]

Read full chapter
Footnotes

1. Matthew 10:34 tn Grk “cast.” For βάλλω (ballō) in the sense of bringing about (or causing) a state or condition, see L&N 13.14; BDAG 163-64 s.v. 4.
2. Matthew 10:34 sn For rhetorical reasons, Jesus’ statement is deliberately paradoxical (seeming to state the opposite of Matt 10:13 where the messengers are to bring peace). The conflict implied by the sword is not primarily eschatological in this context, however, but immediate, and concerns the division and discord even among family members that a person’s allegiance to Jesus would bring (vv. 35-39).
3. Matthew 10:36 tn Matt 10:35-36 are an allusion to Mic 7:6. pasted from: Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 10:34-36 - New English Translation

------------------
​

"This is a hard text to swallow. I don't like thinking of Jesus as one who comes to divide. I'm all about unity and collaboration and getting along. But there are times when divisions become necessary. In the US, we are living in a heated time when divisions are bubbling to the surface with passion and fire. People are voicing and expressing their opinions, and the volume is rising. And I think it's good.

Without the conflicts, the disagreements, the heated debates, nothing will ever change. And we are most certainly not living in a perfect world. Things have to change. People on opposing sides from me my have different ideas of what needs to change and how to change it, but we all agree the status quo is no longer working. I believe we will come out the other side of this in a better place. We will all have a better understanding of one another. We will be more tolerant and accepting of people unlike us. We will have policy changes that are good for everyone. But until then, we experience the pain of division. We can take it. Growing pains." pasted from: Jesus the Cause of Division, Luke 12:49-59 — Clergy Stuff

-------------------​

"Sword and Division: Jesus has indeed come with a sword to divide. The sword as described in Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is living and alive, sharper than any double edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” Jesus is the word of most high God that became flesh. Being the WORD in FLESH, Jesus and the Word of God carry the same nature that is to penetrate and divide. Have you ever experienced being convicted after reading or hearing the word of God. That was the moment when the word was exercising its penetrating power to bring the thoughts or habits out of you that were blocking your closeness to God. Not only so, once you accept and submit to the penetrating process of the word, it is powerful enough to separate those thought/habits out of your life forever.

Jesus has indeed come with a sword to divide. Wherever Jesus is, there is light. In light things become clearer and show their true nature and colour. In a family, where Jesus comes, light appears and separation follows. In the same manner as father created light by his word and then separated light from darkness. This happens because not everyone accepts the Lord at the same time, as is written in John 1:11 “He came to his own but his own did not receive him.” That brings a great responsibility to those who have accepted Christ. John 1:5 says “Light shines in the darkness.” When God separated the light from darkness, he didn’t take the light away from darkness but left it to shine in the darkness, likewise those who have come to know the Lord should intercede for the other family members who have not yet received the Lord. If you are in a family where there are people who have not yet accepted the Lord, the Lord is speaking to you to SHINE EVEN THOUGH ITS HARD TO SHINE and pray so that the whole household may come to know the Lord." pasted from: Jesus: The cause of division

 

[HappyHope]

Please inform me what you understand exactly to be a divisive man? Jesus was an extremely divisive man.

I was going to say this.

 

[HappyHope]

In my observation, Christ's body is more often divided by behaviors than it is by the truth.

I think they are tied. Poor behavior is uncomfortable with truth.

 

[HappyHope]

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring [a] peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword! [b] 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household." [c]

Read full chapter
Footnotes

1. Matthew 10:34 tn Grk “cast.” For βάλλω (ballō) in the sense of bringing about (or causing) a state or condition, see L&N 13.14; BDAG 163-64 s.v. 4.
2. Matthew 10:34 sn For rhetorical reasons, Jesus’ statement is deliberately paradoxical (seeming to state the opposite of Matt 10:13 where the messengers are to bring peace). The conflict implied by the sword is not primarily eschatological in this context, however, but immediate, and concerns the division and discord even among family members that a person’s allegiance to Jesus would bring (vv. 35-39).
3. Matthew 10:36 tn Matt 10:35-36 are an allusion to Mic 7:6. pasted from: Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 10:34-36 - New English Translation

------------------
​

"This is a hard text to swallow. I don't like thinking of Jesus as one who comes to divide. I'm all about unity and collaboration and getting along. But there are times when divisions become necessary. In the US, we are living in a heated time when divisions are bubbling to the surface with passion and fire. People are voicing and expressing their opinions, and the volume is rising. And I think it's good.

Without the conflicts, the disagreements, the heated debates, nothing will ever change. And we are most certainly not living in a perfect world. Things have to change. People on opposing sides from me my have different ideas of what needs to change and how to change it, but we all agree the status quo is no longer working. I believe we will come out the other side of this in a better place. We will all have a better understanding of one another. We will be more tolerant and accepting of people unlike us. We will have policy changes that are good for everyone. But until then, we experience the pain of division. We can take it. Growing pains." pasted from: Jesus the Cause of Division, Luke 12:49-59 — Clergy Stuff

-------------------​

"Sword and Division: Jesus has indeed come with a sword to divide. The sword as described in Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is living and alive, sharper than any double edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” Jesus is the word of most high God that became flesh. Being the WORD in FLESH, Jesus and the Word of God carry the same nature that is to penetrate and divide. Have you ever experienced being convicted after reading or hearing the word of God. That was the moment when the word was exercising its penetrating power to bring the thoughts or habits out of you that were blocking your closeness to God. Not only so, once you accept and submit to the penetrating process of the word, it is powerful enough to separate those thought/habits out of your life forever.

Jesus has indeed come with a sword to divide. Wherever Jesus is, there is light. In light things become clearer and show their true nature and colour. In a family, where Jesus comes, light appears and separation follows. In the same manner as father created light by his word and then separated light from darkness. This happens because not everyone accepts the Lord at the same time, as is written in John 1:11 “He came to his own but his own did not receive him.” That brings a great responsibility to those who have accepted Christ. John 1:5 says “Light shines in the darkness.” When God separated the light from darkness, he didn’t take the light away from darkness but left it to shine in the darkness, likewise those who have come to know the Lord should intercede for the other family members who have not yet received the Lord. If you are in a family where there are people who have not yet accepted the Lord, the Lord is speaking to you to SHINE EVEN THOUGH ITS HARD TO SHINE and pray so that the whole household may come to know the Lord." pasted from: Jesus: The cause of division

You might have the gift of prophecy. As in taking a truth stand no matter who, what, where, when, why or how because it's the truth. In the church, I think these are the most divisive people. The further our society and the church gets from biblical wholesomeness the harder your life will be. Take heart!

 

[Monksailor]

HappyHope, Thank you for your words of encouragement, sister, but I am no one special, just trying to do what all Christians alike have been told to do. My history may have made me more courageous or able to survive and sufficiently function in an environment of hate and cruelty but I am no one special like a prophet. I do like trying to teach things about Jesus and have taken that spiritual gifts test a couple times in different churches through my life and surprisingly it did come up both times the same gift(s), the one associated with teaching and preaching (is that Prophecy?) and another one but it takes some one like you suggesting it from what they have experienced with me to even suggest it that matters to me. Thank you. I will keep your suggestion in the back or side of my mind. Those tests can be fudged. If one is up on what each gift is and what they are about they can make the test show that they are amazingly gifted to the max in all gifts. We had some one like that. You NEVER help yourself when you cheat on a test, never. Honestly assessing yourself the best you can and not worrying about how you compare to others on those tests is paramount but they are only suggestive, generalized guides which can not allow for any deviation from an established norm/median and hence not very credible for any specifically accurate, individualistic application, unless it is a lucky incidence of chance; only a suggestive guide.