Regulative Principle of Worship

now faith · Dec 7, 2014

Ussah was a son of Kohath,they were utility workers for the levite Priest.
They were expressly forbidden to touch the Holy things of God.

What is hard to understand? He disobeyed God's express law,and suffered what God said would happen under these circumstances.

Numbers: 4. 15. And when Aaron and his sons have made an end of covering the sanctuary, and all the vessels of the sanctuary, as the camp is to set forward; after that, the sons of Kohath shall come to bear it: but they shall not touch any holy thing, lest they die. These things are the burden of the sons of Kohath in the tabernacle of the congregation.

Mystery solved.

Bluelion · Dec 7, 2014

now faith said:
Ussah was a son of Kohath,they were utility workers for the levite Priest.
They were expressly forbidden to touch the Holy things of God.

What is hard to understand? He disobeyed God's express law,and suffered what God said would happen under these circumstances.

Numbers: 4. 15. And when Aaron and his sons have made an end of covering the sanctuary, and all the vessels of the sanctuary, as the camp is to set forward; after that, the sons of Kohath shall come to bear it: but they shall not touch any holy thing, lest they die. These things are the burden of the sons of Kohath in the tabernacle of the congregation.

Mystery solved.

that is very interesting now faith, so He broke God's law, so there for he could not have touch it out of love for we know loving God will never cause us to break His laws. In fact i do believe the opposite is said if you love God you will obey Him.

But I am a fool as twin imply because I believe he did not do it out of love.

twin1954 · Dec 8, 2014

If you had actually read and understood the Bible you would have known that the Ark was to be carried by the priests not put on a cart in the first place. Second you would have understood that the Ark represented God's salvation, it was a picture of Christ. Third you would have known that David and the others should have consulted God before they did anything but instead he consulted with the leaders. 1Chron. 13:1-3 Fourth you would have read and known the reason that Uzzah put his hand to the ark because it plainly says that he did it because the oxen stumbled.

Now it can easily be surmised that Uzzah felt he had been given a great honor to drive the cart. He put his hand to the Ark because he didn't want it to fall to the ground. He was trying to do God a favor. It is obvious that he did it out of love.

Now that whole point again was missed for David clearly doesn't blame Uzzah but himself for the breach that God brought on them. He says that it happened because they didn't seek Him after the due order. 1Chron. 15:13

The point being that if you are going to approach and worship God you must do it as He has prescribed not just any way you think is OK.

now faith · Dec 8, 2014

Would transporting the Ark be considered worship?

mikedsjr · Dec 8, 2014

Bluelion, I've finally analyzed the song, Strong Enough by Matthew West.

Does the song speak of Jesus? Yes, it speak of Him. It speaks of Christ strengthening is through all things.

Is God the main person in the son? The song focus is on "you". It's on the person singing. It's on the person's trials and burdens. The second person is God, who the individual seeks help from.

Is the subject gospel oriented? I've tried to find the gospel, but what I've found is our work to get God's help. What I mean by work is the person feels his work is to hit rock bottom to rely on God's help, then He may get his help.

Is it Scripturally accurate? The context to Phil 4:13 is Paul has learned through having a lot or having little that he can do all things. He doesn't have to hit rock bottom to do all things. He is able to share the gospel and do the work of God with much material possessions and little to none. He is able to do God's work whether healthy or beaten nearly to death. He is able to show God's love whether sick or healthy. This song only focuses on a pitiful life of pain to get to a point of God's help.

Thus this song is a rather poor song about worship of God.

JM · Dec 8, 2014

now faith said:
Can you help me with this,I'm not getting how God should be worshipped today from this passage.

Deuteronomy: 12. 21. If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. 22. Even as the roebuck and the hart is eaten, so thou shalt eat them: the unclean and the clean shall eat of them alike. 23. Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh. 24. Thou shalt not eat it; thou shalt pour it upon the earth as water. 25. Thou shalt not eat it; that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD. 26. Only thy holy things which thou hast, and thy vows, thou shalt take, and go unto the place which the LORD shall choose: 27. And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh. 28. Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God. 29. When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30. Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31. Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 32. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

v. 1.-2 destroy Temples belonging to false religion
v. 4-19 worship is prescribed where God reveals His namethe Tabernacle
v. 4. You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way.
v.8 You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,
v. 20-21 the revealed will of God regulates worship
v. 29-21 we are not to be influenced by culture
v.31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
v. 32 Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Bluelion · Dec 8, 2014

mikedsjr said:
Bluelion, I've finally analyzed the song, Strong Enough by Matthew West.

Does the song speak of Jesus? Yes, it speak of Him. It speaks of Christ strengthening is through all things.

Is God the main person in the son? The song focus is on "you". It's on the person singing. It's on the person's trials and burdens. The second person is God, who the individual seeks help from.

Is the subject gospel oriented? I've tried to find the gospel, but what I've found is our work to get God's help. What I mean by work is the person feels his work is to hit rock bottom to rely on God's help, then He may get his help.

Is it Scripturally accurate? The context to Phil 4:13 is Paul has learned through having a lot or having little that he can do all things. He doesn't have to hit rock bottom to do all things. He is able to share the gospel and do the work of God with much material possessions and little to none. He is able to do God's work whether healthy or beaten nearly to death. He is able to show God's love whether sick or healthy. This song only focuses on a pitiful life of pain to get to a point of God's help.

Thus this song is a rather poor song about worship of God.

Yeah no the song is not about the person or singer no more than Paul is when he speaks of himself in the Bible, or states do as i do. God is the focus its all about surrendering to God and is truth. How are we to worship God in truth and Love.

Its ok i understand you at a different place with your faith, but don't judge others because your faith may not be as strong as there. This argument can be seen in the Bible. The Jews claim you must obey the food laws but other say no we are free from that we worship in spirit. its the same arguement. I recommend reading Romans.

now faith · Dec 8, 2014

JM said:
v. 1.-2 destroy Temples belonging to false religion
v. 4-19 worship is prescribed where God reveals His name…the Tabernacle
v. 4. “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way.”
v.8 “You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,”
v. 20-21 the revealed will of God regulates worship
v. 29-21 we are not to be influenced by culture
v.31 “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.”
v. 32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.”[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Interesting,wouldn't vs 21 refer to a preposition of place rather than how worship is conducted?

On 32 does that refer to Moloch?

Since this passage was God's instruction to the Children of Israel,can you show me how modern day Christians are not influenced by culture?

Per God's instruction they were to provide animals for burnt offerings to God,
what can we do today to parallel these offerings?

now faith · Dec 8, 2014

It seems that at first David was perplexed that God killed Ussah,at that time David feared the Lord.

God's wrath was not aimed at David,God did not change his law or instruction for moving the Ark.

Moses was given the instruction to carry it on staves not a cart.

What I do not understand is the Worship in the matter.

Are we to worship as David did upon the return of the Ark singing and dancing with all your might,jumping
For joy?
I suppose if we were there we could here laughter ,cheering and praise.

But David was criticized for dancing and exposing himself,there will always be critics.

2 Samuel: 6. 14. And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. 15. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. 16. And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart. 17. And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. 18. And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts. 19. And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house. 20. Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! 21. And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.

twin1954 · Dec 8, 2014

now faith said:
It seems that at first David was perplexed that God killed Ussah,at that time David feared the Lord.

God's wrath was not aimed at David,God did not change his law or instruction for moving the Ark.

Moses was given the instruction to carry it on staves not a cart.

What I do not understand is the Worship in the matter.

Are we to worship as David did upon the return of the Ark singing and dancing with all your might,jumping
For joy?
I suppose if we were there we could here laughter ,cheering and praise.

But David was criticized for dancing and exposing himself,there will always be critics.

2 Samuel: 6. 14. And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. 15. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. 16. And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart. 17. And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. 18. And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts. 19. And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house. 20. Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! 21. And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.

The Regulative Principle has to do with the practice of the New Testament church and public worship. It deals with those things that are clearly known to be practiced as written in the New Testament. Still it is based on the principles clearly taught in the Old Testament concerning the worship of God such as the strict way God was to be approached and worshipped. We are not free to add whatever we want to the public worship of God.

The parallel to the Old Testament sacrifices is Christ. He is our sacrifice and the Old Testament sacrifices portrayed His sacrifice, pictured and pointed to Him. They never actually atoned or put away sin. Heb. 10:4

Now you are here at the courtesy of the Baptists so don't try to derail the thread with debating the modern Charismatic practices.

now faith · Dec 8, 2014

twin1954 said:
The Regulative Principle has to do with the practice of the New Testament church and public worship. It deals with those things that are clearly known to be practiced as written in the New Testament. Still it is based on the principles clearly taught in the Old Testament concerning the worship of God such as the strict way God was to be approached and worshipped. We are not free to add whatever we want to the public worship of God.

The parallel to the Old Testament sacrifices is Christ. He is our sacrifice and the Old Testament sacrifices portrayed His sacrifice, pictured and pointed to Him. They never actually atoned or put away sin. Heb. 10:4

Now you are here at the courtesy of the Baptists so don't try to derail the thread with debating the modern Charismatic practices.

No I am not promoting or debating Charismatic belief.
I have found that a discussion that is not about Calvinism to be informative and refreshing.
This thread has given me a spark of interest to study the Old Testament.

I personally believe you can find Jesus in every book of the Old Testament.

mikedsjr · Dec 9, 2014

Bluelion, there is a massive difference between this song speaking from the singer's position and Paul speaking from his. Paul always speaks of the gospel in his letters. His letter are not about him and God. This song does not speak of others doing as the speaker does because they are at rock bottom right at this moment. They aren't glorifying God in the song in every circumstance. Only at rock bottom decide the singer glorify God. It's conditional. The mere fact they quote the verse only reinforces modern Christians are not moved by Scripture in context. This song is not worshipful.

Instead of singing the song, just read the lyrics. I'm not making up what I just said. It's Scripturally inaccurate.

When you spoke Amazing grace, you judged the song as traditional, instead of judging it by Scripture and whether its consistent.

Bluelion · Dec 9, 2014

mikedsjr said:
Bluelion, there is a massive difference between this song speaking from the singer's position and Paul speaking from his. Paul always speaks of the gospel in his letters. His letter are not about him and God. This song does not speak of others doing as the speaker does because they are at rock bottom right at this moment. They aren't glorifying God in the song in every circumstance. Only at rock bottom decide the singer glorify God. It's conditional. The mere fact they quote the verse only reinforces modern Christians are not moved by Scripture in context. This song is not worshipful.

Instead of singing the song, just read the lyrics. I'm not making up what I just said. It's Scripturally inaccurate.

When you spoke Amazing grace, you judged the song as traditional, instead of judging it by Scripture and whether its consistent.

The quote is when i am at rock bottom I start looking up and its truth for many people it takes that, that line could be compared with that saved a wretch like me. I am sorry you can't see, maybe we could agree not to judge those of different faiths levels as Paul spoke of. because for me I can find God in almost any song I listen to.

I heard a story of a child who died for a time and went to Heaven he saw angels and they were singing he asked them if they could sing we will rock you by qeen and they laugh. Ahhh the innocents of a child isn't that what its all about?

The song in no different than amazing grace, but i understand you need that music, you need for you music to fit into a box, that's fine, but i don't need that.

mikedsjr · Dec 9, 2014

bluelion, There several different items to look at. If the person needs to hit rock bottom to seek God's help, they were not believing they could do all things through Christ even going through the downward spiral. They were more like the Israelites who chased after Baal, built Asheroth poles, and were taken into captivity, then began calling out for God for help. As I said, this song is built on misinterpretation/misrepresenting of Scripture to make a "worship" song. There is no question people do go through hard times and they turn to God. I agree there. That sounds like the issue in the song. But you want this sung at church and make people NOT going through hard times to sing this too? Worship songs should be representative for all people, for all times, in every location and be consistent to Scripture. This song doesn't do that.

I can not agree to the terms you gave. You're taking the view of judging from Scripture, imo, out of context too. 1 Cor 5 says we do have a right to judge those inside the church. Now this means knowledge is required and a loving heart to make such judgments. It certainly does not imply a person wont take it as an unloving behavior. I find it unloving to take God's word out of context to mean something it does not say. And My comments on this song have been to condemn it for doing such. Amazing Grace is a song written regarding redemption through Christ for eternal life. Any Christian can relate to this because they are not a Christian without the work of Christ. The entire Bible revolves around Grace through faith for eternal Life. The idea you are more concerned by a music style over Scriptural accuracy of the music really bothers me.

What we can agree on is we disagree

Bluelion · Dec 9, 2014

Amazing grace should not be aloud either then only Psalms. I really am not free to say all i would like, even though Jesus called out the same kind of stuff.

Your opinion is subjective, and so is mine if you say only scripture songs should be covered that Means Psalms and Amazing grace need to be thrown out also.

You object to people singing the song I posted well why should they sing Amazing grace? In fact the only point you made about the song I posted was rock bottom. How very lucky for you you have never hit rock bottom but may people have.

twin1954 · Dec 9, 2014

now faith said:
No I am not promoting or debating Charismatic belief.
I have found that a discussion that is not about Calvinism to be informative and refreshing.
This thread has given me a spark of interest to study the Old Testament.

I personally believe you can find Jesus in every book of the Old Testament.

I believe the whole of the Scriptures are about Him and His Gospel. I try my best to find Him not only in every book but in every chapter.

BTW I would be willing to try and help you find Him in the Old Testament.

Bluelion · Dec 10, 2014

mikedsjr said:
bluelion, There several different items to look at. If the person needs to hit rock bottom to seek God's help, they were not believing they could do all things through Christ even going through the downward spiral. They were more like the Israelites who chased after Baal, built Asheroth poles, and were taken into captivity, then began calling out for God for help. As I said, this song is built on misinterpretation/misrepresenting of Scripture to make a "worship" song. There is no question people do go through hard times and they turn to God. I agree there. That sounds like the issue in the song. But you want this sung at church and make people NOT going through hard times to sing this too? Worship songs should be representative for all people, for all times, in every location and be consistent to Scripture. This song doesn't do that.

I can not agree to the terms you gave. You're taking the view of judging from Scripture, imo, out of context too. 1 Cor 5 says we do have a right to judge those inside the church. Now this means knowledge is required and a loving heart to make such judgments. It certainly does not imply a person wont take it as an unloving behavior. I find it unloving to take God's word out of context to mean something it does not say. And My comments on this song have been to condemn it for doing such. Amazing Grace is a song written regarding redemption through Christ for eternal life. Any Christian can relate to this because they are not a Christian without the work of Christ. The entire Bible revolves around Grace through faith for eternal Life. The idea you are more concerned by a music style over Scriptural accuracy of the music really bothers me.

What we can agree on is we disagree

you added words to the song it does not say. It does not say i need to hit rock bottom to find God, It says when I hit it I start looking up.

So you judge this song as not fit for God, wow, i would be afraid to Judge God's servant in such away, but you go right a head handing out judgement. You can not even say well its not for me, fine, but in another church it might be. BTW are you an elder in the church? Who appointed you judge over such things, and sense we are in the baptist section you know baptist churches are independent, we do not have Popes and bishops to over see the church. we have Christ. its why i am a baptist.

mikedsjr · Dec 10, 2014

Bluelion, to simply what I was saying I will make this quick.

Premises
1. Phil 4:13 is the Scriptural focal point
2. The song's focus is calling to the Lord at rock bottom
3. Paul explains in Phil 4 he in all circumstances, in his gospel ministry, God strengthens him.
4. People, in the process of hitting rock bottom, were clearly not focused on God's strength taking them to the rock bottom.

Conclusion:
6. The song is not accurately upholding Phil 4:13

What do you disagree with in my statements? Or do a bullet point like above to explain to me why you say its a good song.

now faith · Dec 10, 2014

twin1954 said:
I believe the whole of the Scriptures are about Him and His Gospel. I try my best to find Him not only in every book but in every chapter.

BTW I would be willing to try and help you find Him in the Old Testament.

Bless God you can go back and each time something you missed will be revealed .

I personally believe everything written in God's word has a purpose,we may not see it but God put it there for a reason.

now faith · Dec 10, 2014

MrJim said:
The church I attend isn't a Jewish assembly---hate to break it to you but "biblical" doesn't equal "Christian"....

I just went back to see what the Church praise music was about,I was thinking about the Ark of the covenant.

Do you disagree with using Psalms as Worship music?

If being Bibical doesn't constitute Christian,what does?

Our Lord was Hebrew,and called at times Son of David due to his Human blood line.

His physical Blood was from God as all babies receive their fathers blood not the mother's.

Jesus taught from the Hebrew Bible,for the most part Deuteronomy.

Christ was Bibical,but Christianity may or may not be depending on their opinions.

John: 1. 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

In 1967 I found Jesus Christ in a Baptist Church and still fellowship among the Baptist,as well I visit Baptist Churches.
I hope you don't report me for disagreement with your statement.

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